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Bricks and Dragons is having its first meeting on Saturday, February 5th, 2011. See the event details in the forum topic (link) or on Facebook (link). | |||
"It was as if a million possible hijinks cried out, and were suddenly silenced by plot."
(Phrixscreoth)
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| Discrimination and Nerd Culture; Warning: long post and possible upset feelings | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Friday Feb 4 2011, 10:06 PM (1,301 Views) | |
| Isura | Friday Feb 4 2011, 10:06 PM Post #1 |
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I recently came across this while doing my daily internet rounds. For those of you who don't have the time or patiences to read through all of the linked blog posts (and it look me about 4-5 hours of straight reading) a basic (and thus horrifically oversimplified) summary is this: Penny Arcade posted a comic with the word 'rape' in it. Some people were offended, and the two site owners reacted in a way that many felt was insulting and offensive, or at the very least immature, and the whole thing blew up in a way that neither of the two original parties were intending. For myself, what I was interested in is how 'nerd' culture (i.e., those interested in gaming, anime, comics and whatever else I'm missing, who also feel some level of ostracization from larger society) as it were relates to the misogyny and other forms of discrimination of broader culture. At the moment, it seems to me that a lot of nerd culture reacts to people that stand outside of their group (in this case, non white male heterosexual cisisexual abled 18-24 year olds) in an offensive and derogatory manner. 'Those who are weak do not want to change society, they just want to be the ones giving the abuse.' Basically 4chan. This isn't to say that all, or most, or a majority of nerds are either perpetrators of this discrimination, or that they are the aforementioned white males. However, what my five hours of reading today did do was give me the impression that much of nerd culture is still dominated/produced by and aimed towards this group (a broader symptom of patriarchy wit large), while those that object to things they find problematic (in this case feminists and rape-survivors) are attacked, often quite viciously. There are a bunch of reasons for this, many which are covered in blog posts that are listed in the group. I don't have a direct quote, so a faulty memory synopsis will have to suffice, but one that I felt really got to the heart of the issue was that those in the gaming community who rallied behind PA felt like their community was being divided and attacked; 'I thought of the guys from Penny Arcade as my friends. I wanted to defend my friends.' There are various people who have called aspects of nerd culture on discriminatory practices. This Cracked Article (of which only the first two points are relevant, though the rest are interesting) is one of many talking about the fact that the reason so few girls feel comfortable being part of the gaming community because of the continual treatment of female characters as being a masturbatory aid rather than an actual character. Fridge stuffing (beware: TVtropes) is another example of this. Racism, sexism and homophobia are sadly common and expected in the online gaming community (an interesting look at how one online gaming company took on this challenge can be seen here). So my questions are: do you find nerd culture to be discriminatory, and if so more or less than society more broadly? Have instances of discrimination happened to you, and how did/do you react to them? How do you think we should go about trying to change things to be more inclusive (assuming that seems like a reasonable goal for you)? [Note: I think I've make clear on what it is that I'm interested in discussing. However, if the discussion moves on to other topics I don't have a problem with that.] Edited for typos Edited by Isura, Saturday Feb 5 2011, 01:15 AM.
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| onegirlarmy | Friday Feb 4 2011, 10:56 PM Post #2 |
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I'm V and I like girls. A lot.
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-I'd say I'm waist-deep in nerd culture, and I'm an able/queer/agendered/feminist. I do find it discriminatory, moreso than North American society in general, but no more than other fringe cultures I've encountered. -Within nerd culture I often feel almost out of place because of my X chromosomes. A lot of the people I speak to are obviously uncomfortable around stong and/or obviously feminine women, and they try to compensate for/mask this discomfort through objectification. -When I'm communicating online, there is a marked difference in the way I'm spoken to and how seriously I'm taken between before I reveal my gender and after. There are a lot of requests for "n00dz" or questions about my sexual history that are unrelated to the original discussions. -This eventually led to my theory that because nerd culture is so much more internet-oriented than other fringe cultures, the males involved are more heavily influenced by pornography in terms of their attitudes towards women. -Will post more later, right now I'm distracted by too many things to give my response the attention it needs. |
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La la love you don't mean maybe! | |
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| Phrixscreoth | Saturday Feb 5 2011, 12:15 PM Post #3 |
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League of Legends kept me (mostly) sane~
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I actually had to read this again later, trying to read your original post Isura at 2:30 in the morning was NOT well thought out on my part XD My thoughts on the matter... well, I don't think that nerd culture is any less discriminatory than any other social group. This video on the Escapist brings up a really good point about how sportsfans and nerds actually aren't really different. "They dress up in reproduction's of their teams jersys. Thats right, not just jerseys, but replications of what that person actually wears. We have a name for that. It's called Cosplay." Paraphrased, as I haven't rewatched the video recently, but that's the gist of it. Good watch if you've got 5 minutes (and 20 seconds) to spare. Anyway, the reason the nerd group takes a hit, in my eyes, is simply because of how overexposed the rest of the world is to our comments. The jock's discrimination isn't (usually) blared out over the interwebz. Everyone can see what the nerd culture is saying quite clearly, though. Especially when they go about hitting people with DoS attacks. But I try to ignore those dicks. |
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| Xamad | Friday Feb 11 2011, 03:23 PM Post #4 |
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First things first: Tangent: Rape=bad, Murder in cold blood because of typing late at night= just as bad. So although I would like to agree with Shakesville, her argument (her first one at least) was a tad to far on the hypocritical side for me. I'm glad she was straight up and truthful about her opinions (As we all should be) but it took away from her argument. So although being a valid one, I really wished she would have defended her opinions more. (Again, I don't have 5 hours to read but initially this was the case.) Now on to the real question: "Do you find nerd culture to be discriminatory, and if so more or less than society more broadly? Have instances of discrimination happened to you, and how did/do you react to them? How do you think we should go about trying to change things to be more inclusive (assuming that seems like a reasonable goal for you)?" Yes. It is the same as society. Yes. I can't, you go ahead. I'm going to say this because it is true and factual. Humanity is innately evil. Those that strive for power will and once they have it THEY will corrupt it (Power does not corrupt. People are corrupt and when they have the means to do so, it is shown on a larger scale. However this is a separate topic and this will cease my tangent). I'm going to try to use as few words as possible. Nerds invent video games (Search your feelings Phrix. You know its true. plz tell me you at least got the Star wars reference). Many people play video games. Thus nerds have power. The power to create whatever they want to. I mean seriously... Lets look at two of some of the most popular video games of all time. Super Mario Bros. for the NES. It has developed into a whole culture within its self with fan fiction and the like. You know what I'm talking about for the most part (I hope). Also look at the creator of Tomb Raider. This guy is a Nerd if iv'e ever seen one. He created it so he could have something to look at and make millions off of while others like him did the same. I hope if you are reading this that you can read between the lines and point out things that I am not saying... Anyways... NEXT! As nerd society is part of society as a whole I think it is impossible to be MORE discriminatory than society as a whole. If you think about it, gaming and forum sites are really just an extension of society, created by those that grew up in society, thus adding propaganda and biases imposed on them from society to the society they invented (I hope I didn't lose you). On tope of that, I would also like to add that discrimination is subjective thus making it unquantifiable. So in conclusion to this last portion. There is no more or less discrimination in nerd society than society at large because its is entirely impacted upon society at large and it is unmeasurable. NEXT! As previously stated, discrimination is subjective. So yes I do think that I am discriminated against sometimes for my beliefs but we all are at some point or another. As for dealing with it, my credo is to turn the other cheek, love my enemies, Ephesians 4:31-32 etc. NEXT! Finally!!!!! Anyways I don't have the time for video games/ nerd culture as much as I used too. When I go to conventions and comic book stores I see the same power struggle and assertion as I would anywhere else. I can't force people to change. I can only "stick to my guns" as myself and a christian and hope that I can affect those around me. P.S. Super sorry for the long post to those that have time sensitive schedules. |
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| Isura | Friday Feb 11 2011, 04:50 PM Post #5 |
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Xamad, try and avoid sweeping generalizations in your argument. It's hard to have a discussion when you presume my position for me. The idea of people being innately 'good' or 'evil' has been pondered on by brighter minds than you or I, for thousands of years, without a conclusion that everyone can agree on being reached. Also, no one was going to assume that you believe that rape=bad. However, I don't see how a rape victim saying that she doesn't like seeing rape treated like a joke is hypocritical. And I don't see how posting her personal opinions is taking away from her argument, specifically since it is a blog and not a news source, which is supposed to be impartial. What did you mean by defending her opinions? I think she clearly laid out what rape culture is and how disastrous it is for us as a culture. [If you missed the link, she goes over it here.] The thought that 'men cannot stop men from being sexist' is horrific. As a woman, it is not my responsibility to keep men from raping me, nor should I be expected to have sole responsibility for saying that calling your son a pussy for playing with dolls is wrong, that hanging pornographic pictures in the work place is discriminatory, or that beating your wife for talking back is horrific. It has to come from both sides. It involves everyone, and men in particular, to take responsibility for the fact that society gives certain people power over others for no reason. So yes, you can change things. I find your argument that "people who create video games are nerds, video games are popular, thus nerds are powerful" flawed. The people making the games are being directed by the producers who are selling the game, advertiser, the stores that sell the games (Walmart has a huge influence on what is put in games because of their refusal to sell anything with an AO rating), as well as critics, parental control groups, governments and all the rest. If anything, I believe the real power rests in the almighty dollar. And they certainly cannot create 'whatever they want,' anymore than a TV or movie writer than have a movie be anything they want. not if they want to make a living out of it. I don't see how having a cult following gives the creator power either. What do you mean 'something to look at'? I disagree that a subgroup of society is just as discriminatory as society as a whole. I would say that neo-Nazi's are more racist that society on a whole. Along with this, I believe that you can say that a certain group is more likely to discriminate than others. For example, there is much more blatant racism and sexism on 4chan than there is in say my women's studies classes. It may not be a percent (Fox news is 45% more racist than The Daily Show) but I think that discriminatory action, thought and language are more common in certain places and among certain people than others. I don't understand the connection you're making between 'turning the other cheek' and discrimination. Viewing people as not human because of their skin colour, religion, sex, gender, race, sexuality, or mental/physical ability is discrimination. Being called a jackass is not. Discrimination manifests itself in tangible ways: slavery, women being owned by their husbands, witch burning, genocide, restrictions from job opportunities, being forced into ghettos, being beaten to death on the street, rape, higher rates of incarceration, not feeling safe, dying from curable diseases because you cannot afford to pay for medication, and more. You cannot 'turn the other cheek' on discrimination. Loving your enemies will not stop discrimination. ps: everyone on this forum is very well educated and intelligent. I promise you everyone is going to get what you mean. We're not stupid, we promise. Edited by Isura, Friday Feb 11 2011, 04:52 PM.
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| Xamad | Saturday Feb 12 2011, 02:52 AM Post #6 |
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"I don't see how a rape victim saying that she doesn't like seeing rape treated like a joke is hypocritical." That isn't what I meant at all. I just wanted to point out that she finds murder to be funny but rape she finds appalling. She is correct that rape is totally appalling, however so is murder. I just wanted to say from my perspective to say one is funny while the other is not is, for lack of a better word, twisted (I guess?). Like seriously, how should one be humorous and the other one not? I read the link. Good content. I wish it was written a little better (format and stylistic devices) but over all thought provoking and good use of examples. "The thought that 'men cannot stop men from being sexist' is horrific." Yes it is. Yes I can TRY and stop men from being sexist but I can't exactly FORCE them not to be either. Unless I am there witnessing an act being done and intervene, I can not force my beliefs about sexism on a man any more than I could force my religious beliefs on him. The only thing that I have total control over are MY actions and MY thoughts. You are correct my argument was flawed but we are one the same page about one thing. Money. As we know that sex sells... You know where this is headed. In regards to discrimination I still think that discrimination is totally subjective and that it is unquantifiable. Either it is present or it is not. (I'm pretty sure this is where we are just going to have to agree to disagree) Before we get started with the next section I would just like to make sure that we are both on the same page and that turning the other cheek is MY way of confronting with and dealing with discrimination as to answer your question, "Have instances of discrimination happened to you, and how did/do you react to them?" "Loving your enemies will not stop discrimination." Perhaps not from your perspective. However I believe in a God that says it will. Colossians 3:12-14 12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Galatians 5:22-26 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. Romans 12:14-21 14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.[a] Do not be conceited. 17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. 20 On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”[c] 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. I am still looking for one more verse but I am having difficulty finding it. I will post it when I do. |
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| Phrixscreoth | Saturday Feb 12 2011, 01:15 PM Post #7 |
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League of Legends kept me (mostly) sane~
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Firstly, Xamad, I'm ashamed that you would even THINK I wouldn't get that reference. As well as basically everyone else on this fourm. Also, as Isura pointed out without saying outright: Discrimination is not subjective. Also also, Xamad, saying it is subjective and unquantifiable... and then saying it is there or it is not? What? Unquantifiable means that you can't measure the amount in any way. Saying it is there or it is not IS MEASURING IT. You're disagreeing with us then saying exactly what we are saying. Dude. Subjective, while on the subject, means that people see things differently than their others. This ALSO conflicts with what you are saying. If it is there or it is not, then it is not subjective: it is there wether you see it as such or it is not. Counting someone as being fundimentally different (eg, less then human) then you because of some superficial identifiyer is being discriminatory. If its subjective that means that the person doing the discrimination MAY BE RIGHT THAT THE PERSON IS LESS THAN HUMAN. Is this what you mean? Why do you keep using that word? I do not think it means what you think it means. Sweeping generalizations are bad. Also as Isura pointed out (dammit, woman!). Also, I find quoting Bibles a not very effective way at proving a point. Books such as that were written to give focus to peoples lives as they qualified then. Times changed. A lot. Take leasons to heart from Holy books but don't quote them literally. Take what they say and draw your own conclusions and meanings from them. Spouting off what others have said does not a good argument make. Anyway, what I take out of what you've quoted for the modern era: Don't be a troll. Anonymous is a group of dicks because they disrupt people's lives and lash out at whomever they feel like it. Feeding your enemies (and other such things) is stupid when not thought about in advance. By feeding, I mean general acts of compassion. If the person whom you consider your enemy is not really a bad person, just at odds with what you wish to do, go ahead. No point creating bad blood when the person doesn't activly have it in for you. If the person is a bigot, feeding them won't change a thing. Being kind to them won't stop them from hatin'. If they are actively trying to harm you... run like fuck, don't sit to dinner with them. It's the whole teaching a man to fish thing ("Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you |
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| Isura | Saturday Feb 12 2011, 10:26 PM Post #8 |
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Xamad, at first i didn't understand why you brought the murder thing into Shakesville's first post, so I looked it over. I understand your point now, but I do think that it's a bit unfair to take them out of context. Rape and murder are treated very differently in society, and rape is often taken to be a far less serious act than murder. Hell, there are some rapists who don't think what they did was wrong. If you want a recent example, the US recently tried to pass a bill saying that only 'rape rape' aka forcible rape was deserving of public funding for abortions. In trials, you don't have the defense trying to prove that the murder victim 'deserved' to be killed by looking at their sexual history, what they were doing that night, or what they were wearing. It's so stupid it's funny to imagine a situation where the defense says: "but your honour, they were wearing a Leafs jersey in Montreal! They were asking for it!" But these arguments happen, and disturbingly often, for rape victims who are persecuting their attackers. The difference between the two is that there exists a society where rape is common, and treated as a joke, in order to keep women, gay men and visual minorities from trying to gain equal rights. It's akin to police brutality, which affects middle or upper class straight white men differently than it does poor LGBTQ women and minorities (and minority women). As for your own experiences of discrimination, I'm afraid I'm gong to have to say that it isn't something you're likely to experience in the same way as other people do, as a (presumably) white, heterosexual, able-bodied male. (if you're not, and say, some kind of heavily armored alien that I assume is what your display picture is showing, my apologies, it's hard to tell these things on the internet). However, this is not to say that you will not experience discrimination at all, nor that your experiences are any less valid. But the experiences of someone who's won the genetic lottery and those who haven't is very stark. You can say that you personally turn the other cheek in regards to these incidents because you have the power and opportunity not to. This is not the case for people who are not in your situation, because for them their only option is not to fight back. You need to have a certain amount of power even to be able to choose to respond or not, which is why equal rights movements are so important. They give people who otherwise have no options a place to reclaim the right to be treated like a human being. Which brings me to your section talking about trying to change other people. You did not make it clear to me that "Yes I can TRY and stop men from being sexist but I can't exactly FORCE them not to be either." was what you meant, and I got the impression that you believed that it was not your responsibility at all to try and change anything. You can certainly step in and try and talk to them about it. Chris (dammit man!) said whatever I could say about your p.o.v. on discrimination better than I could. I'm also confused on what you're trying to say here. You can see discrimination (aka beating someone to death because of their skin colour or sexual identity) as well as the effects of it (higher incarceration rates, absence in powerful offices). You cannot say it doesn't exist, anymore than you can say hate doesn't exist because you can't see 'hate'. I'm 100% sure that someone writing "girls can't play video games" is discrimination. I cannot understand what you are trying to say in regards to this matter? Are you saying that discrimination doesn't exist at all? Unless Chris, I don't have a problem with the 'love your enemy' stuff, and find it rather admirable, but that love also needs to be followed up with action. I do, however, find you saying that God will stop discrimination using the Bible is ironic, because the Bible and Christianity has been used to perpetrate discrimination. There are historical examples, such as the crusades, violence against Jews, and witch burnings, as well are more recent examples such as not wanting to give women the vote, interracial marriage, and being LGBTQ as a disease. |
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| Phrixscreoth | Sunday Feb 13 2011, 12:46 AM Post #9 |
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League of Legends kept me (mostly) sane~
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I assume you mean "Unlike Chris", not "Unless Chris", Isura. Though interperting the way you wrote it is the path to lulz. If Not Chris than Don't have a Problem. Yay Logic! I really think they should rename those "witch" burnings... innocent burnings, or period of mass histera. Everyone knows if they caught a REAL witch, the witch in question would simply perform a flame freezing charm and experience a mild tickling sensation while pretending to shriek in agony. I know of at least one that enjoyed it so much she let herself get caught, what was it, 47 times? My problem isn't so much the love your enemy stuff, it's that you shouldn't give blind love- blindly following anything is the way to self destruction. Thought should be put into each and every case, or you could get burned. Ours is a rich and complex society in which every case is unique to that particular individual. Events leading to, during the event and after the event are all experienced differently. If a man robs you because he needs to eat, show him compassion. If a man robs you because all yur base are belong to us, call the cops. |
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| Xamad | Sunday Feb 13 2011, 02:10 AM Post #10 |
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"Sweeping generalizations are bad" is a sweeping generalization within its self. I'm not saying this as an argument. I just got it and I find it hilarious! Phrix in regards to the Bible: YES ISURA! I to also needed to reflect on my argument and (and talk it over with my brother) I think the three of us have reached the same-ish opinion (the system works!). Its kind of like a double standard type thing. Like the same yet completely different (I think the example my brother used was comparing and contrasting a pear and an apple). I didn't want to bring up murder say that her argument was made invalid (because it obviously wasn't) it was like a more devil's advocate type thing I guess. I guess to somewhat segue into my next topic of discussion, humour is used as a coping mechanism. I wrote a paper last semester (WITH SCHOLARLY ARTICLES) about these paramedics that where making jokes about a patients state (on deaths door) in regards to her dying en route to their destination. Just a death can be very difficult to deal with so is rape (and murder). I'm not saying this to say that it is right or wrong (although my personal opinion is that it is wrong), but rather just to point out a possible reason for why such things occur. Whether humour is used to desensitize rape/murder as a means of coping or a means of justifying I can't be sure. Again, this is not an argument per se, it is simply a statement to perpetuate your mind and thinking. Discrimination as subjective: Phrix: "Also also, Xamad, saying it is subjective and unquantifiable... and then saying it is there or it is not? What? Unquantifiable means that you can't measure the amount in any way. Saying it is there or it is not IS MEASURING IT." "Is there" is reffering to this world in which we live in. "Not" being the perfect world in which we can view theoretically where everyone is friends with everyone. Isura: No I am not saying it doesn't exist in this world. It does. What I think I find difficult to put into words sometimes. This is one of those times but I shall never the less do my best. Discrimination: The unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, esp. on the grounds of race, age, or sex. (from the dictionary on my laptop) I tell my asian nursing girl friend (she's not my girlfriend!) that she can't drive because she's an asian woman. She laughs. I tell a random asian lady from Scarborough that she can't drive because she's an asian woman. She slaps me. According to the previous definition, both of these are examples of discrimination however one individual finds it funny where as the other finds it offensive and racist. I know that this is kind of a wimpy example as when you refer to discrimination you are talking like burning a the stake, linch mobbing, public mockery and shizit. But I hope the concept is understood as far as discrimination is subjective. (I have a whole other point of discussion involving the secular society and using a secular reasoning to point out how the whole subjective/ objective rational is flawed (as they are dictated by society supposedly) but again I really really really can't get into it without face-to-face confrontation.) Isura your final paragraph makes me happy. Again I would like to try and explain it to you but I KNOW I can't do my thoughts justice over the forums. (Also the whole, I say one thing, you think it means something else which I actually wanted implied as something else craziness ceases.) Chris you are totally right. Also there is a Bible verse for that! Matthew 7:6 6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces. And as promised what this verse means (to me): My God asks me to give give love blindly to all, regardless of how crazy things get. See how it can turn out here! (Only 4 minutes). However there are times like you stated where you have to just stop giving love. That is EXACTLY what this verse is referring to (When you study it, it's really not as outdated as you might think). As my mom says "If they say 'hi' you say 'hi' back but other than that you don't seek them out (not avoid them, don't seek them out)". However this does not mean that I should ever stop praying for such people like the Westboro Baptist church, the KKK, skinheads etc. Although I must confess that I have not. This is not because I choose not to, but rather because I need to work on the habit of doing so. (P.S. Thank you for reminding me!!!!) I hope this explains my thinking a little better. And seriously I would love to have a face-to-face sit down. My schedule is packed but this is important so I am willing to make time if you are interested. Edited by Xamad, Sunday Feb 13 2011, 09:21 AM.
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| Xamad | Sunday Feb 13 2011, 03:03 AM Post #11 |
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this isn't actually xamad, it's his brother. It's late and as such I skimmed most of the posts, so take that in mind. First off, without disrespecting rape survivors, uhm, the rape wasn't the joke. I think it was more of one of those video game missions where you have to save less people then there are, so really this controversy started because they focused on panel 2 when really panel 3 is the joke. It seems that people got all up in arms about the use of the word rape and didn't look at the context. It brings to mind the whole huckleberry finn debacle. As for discrimination, yeah I've been called stupid for believing in God and not blindly following what scientists say about the world and how it was created. I haven't experienced much in the way of discrimination as a heterosexual white male, except for people who say that heterosexual white males face no discrimination and don't face any challenges in life, so figure that one out. Well, I suppose this is a stereotype, but a lot of nerds, are or were traditionally men. Traditionally men play video games and read comics and all that other crap, and a lot of them are made by men, for men, so it follows that the creators of gears of war or halo or whatever are not thinking about how they can move forward the feminist movement with well drawn out, anatomically correct females who are strong. To be fair the listed video games are probably the wrong examples. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying it is. No you can't change people. All I can do is control my actions, I can respect others, I can try to prevent discrimination in others, but their choice is up to them. That being said, My actions can influence others and so all I can do is try to not discriminate and hope others will follow. As far as the bible being used as a tool for discrimination, it doesn't come so much from a literal translation as it does from a partial taking of facts that support what you already feel, kind of like in The Book of Eli. Those who use the bible as a platform for hate must have skimmed over that part in the obscure "sermon on the mount" (matthew 5:22) when Jesus compares hate to murder. People have mixed up hate for sin, and God hates sin, to hate against a person, which Jesus rebukes. Admittedly it speaks in the bible of God using the word hate, but his ways are not ours. It says in the bible that homosexuality is wrong, I believe it is, hating a homosexual is also wrong. I disagree with it, but I don't hate people who are gay, or think they should be mistreated. Also I have yet to find the passage that commands the crusades, it could be in there, but I've read the Bible cover to cover and haven't found it. Yes the bible has been used as a platform for hate, but that hate is universal and Christians do not hold a monopoly on it. On the case of sweeping generalizations they can be over arching and based on the big picture, not considering the smaller inconstancies and outside opinions. That is bad, though not always wrong. In my mind, many of the problems with generalizations are the problems with political parties and people give money to those. yeah maybe turning the other cheek and being nice to those who discriminate against you won't change them and they will continue to be racist, and bigoted and what not. But by being the bigger person you are at least making them into the aggressor. If someone taunts me and mocks and all I do is respond with love what excuse do they have, they don't there is no reason to have any ill will against me. If I act out in hate, or take it one step further, they have reason. Just because I didn't start it doesn't mean I have a free pass. Sure I can say this easily because, as stated I'm white and male, but it seems to me that hate isn't the way to respond to those who discriminate. It's just feeding the fire. Briefly, it seems that there is that whole opinion that people should make choices about themselves, or whatever you call it, abortion sexual orientation, marriage, whatever, so should someone not have the right to choose to literally translate the bible and follow it as many do everyday without causing harm to others? So yeah, really, people will discriminate, everyone does it. Generalization? yes. Fact? yes. Can you dispute it? you can try. We can't stop discrimination, we can just show it as groundless and not with hate but with love. Will it change people, maybe not instantly, but how many people act out in hate because they have been hated? I'm not going to apologize for length, you didn't have to read it. |
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| Phrixscreoth | Sunday Feb 13 2011, 12:53 PM Post #12 |
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League of Legends kept me (mostly) sane~
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Xamad, in terms of "is there" and "not", you are using language wrong. "In regards to discrimination I still think that discrimination is totally subjective and that it is unquantifiable. Either it is present or it is not." Saying discrimination is either in this world or it is not in a hypothetical world....? That doesn't exlude the other. You can't compare "worlds" like that using that style of comparison to prove your point. If it's not in a hypothetical world.... what's to stop it from being in the one we actually live in? Not a thing. Also, the sentence you wrote suggests the same world comparison frame (ie, this actual world) rather then two different comparison frames. Frames of reference are always important to be established. Also, you're still using subjective and unquantifiable wrong. Just sayin'. I never said it was out dated, I said times changed a lot and you should take leasons to heart without following them literally. Yes, that quote is one of those quotes whose meaning is still valid. Your example is also missing a key point: Both of those examples are instances of discrimination. What is different is that your friend knows you mean it in jest, knows you are being discriminantory, knows you are not being serious, as she knows that YOU are being discriminatory on purpose to gain a response, in this case (probably) laughter. The woman on the street does not know you, does not know this background information, and takes offense. The difference is not wether one statement is discriminatory, the difference is how seriously the person takes it. For instance, there are two black guys in all of my 70+ game dev classmates. One of them is the target of an exponential number of rasict and discriminatory comments. The only reason we can get away with this is because we know that we have permission (well, not so much permission as coming from us, he understands how to take it and when directed at him, he knows how to take it, but permission is a shorter word) to make those kinds of comments. Here's the key point, though: at one point in class, we were riffing back and forth across the classroom, we all laughed, and the teacher laughed uneasily. They laughed because they saw us laughing and recognized it as a joke between us, but they did so uneasily because they did not know us that well and thus could not be entierly sure that it was, in fact, done in good humor. Because the comments are, in fact, discriminatory. What I think you, Xamad, have been confusing for subjective is not wether or not the comments were discriminatory but wether they were intended to be offensive or not to the target. Because yes, that is subjective. Xamad's Brother: lol, clearly you haven't been on this site long if you feel you need to point out the length. We are all quite loving here. Though Isura is a little... too loving. Anyway, I wouldn't call you stupid for believing in God and not blindly following what scientsts say- blindly following clergy or men in white coats, you're still following something blindly, which is bad. Listening to both sides and drawing your own conclusions are what's important, as well as not needlessly blasting the other side for being cooks. One of my favorite examples (not best, considering the source) is from Dan Brown's (see? Terrible source ;D) Angel's and Demons. At the begining, the soon to be dead guy makes a point that scienists have come up with all sorts of theories about the creation of the universe, but the point he talks about is how no one seems to be able to answer the question: "Well, if the universe exploded out in a "Big Bang"... how'd all that energy get there in the first place?". This character believes God put it there. While I have no idea if I agree with him or not, the point is that you can follow both camps, or only one camp, as long as you take into consideration the feelings (at the very least) of the other camps. Incidently, I feel the same way on this topic between religions. Religion to religion should take into account the beliefs of those religions as well. Because who knows? For all they know, they're fighting over the same God(s) told in a different way. Love your point on not being able to change people. Agree completly. The other thing I have a problem with for using the bible as a platform for anything is because of two things: the number of times the bible has been translated (ask any fan of anime why that's a problem, then bring up 4Kids) and because, from what I understand, how many different books were around, and considered just as important, before hand. I can't quite work out what you're talking about on the whole homosexuailty part, I -think- you're saying that you agree that homosexuality is wrong, you disagree that hating a homosexual is wrong, but you don't hate them or mistreat them anyway. That's a bit confusing for me, and I'd appriciate a clarification on if that's right or not. Posting at 3 am never works well, I find XD. On that note, however, is one of the points in which I feel the bible is outdated. From my total lack of knowledge in history perspective, I would imagine that was put in place because you don't get no breeding stock with homosexuality, which is important if you want to ensure your race survives things like plauge. Nowadays, when that's not an issue, that point is kinda moot. Especially considering you don't CHOOSE to be homosexual. Wether through divine intervention or the chemical balance in your head, being punished for something that is not your fault and beyond your control is wrong. Period. Especially especially because it doesn't hurt anybody else. I think there is also a thing in there about God hating on shrimp? Or something like that? I dunno fer sure. Finally yeah, that act out on hate because of hate thing? Cycle of revenge. What bullied child doesn't dream of lashing back out at their tormenters? I know I have, quite frequently. French revolution is another great example- nobles were overthrown by the common folk who wanted change- and all that changed was the common folk raging on the nobles now. Also, my post is longer. So there ;D Edited by Phrixscreoth, Sunday Feb 13 2011, 12:53 PM.
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| Xamad | Sunday Feb 13 2011, 01:24 PM Post #13 |
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Firstly God has a sense of humour because today's sermon was on love and Luke 6:27-36: Love for Enemies 27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you. 32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. February 13th is the podcast/ listen to an audio recording of the sermon I will post a link to the podcast of the sermon when it is posted to get a more indepth understanding "You should take leasons to heart without following them literally." In some instances yes and others not so much. The ten commandments for instance are to be taken very literally. Before I move on (and really challenge you) are you saying that discrimination is OBJECTIVE or " (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts" (Taken from my electronic dictionary) "Incidently, I feel the same way on this topic between religions. Religion to religion should take into account the beliefs of those religions as well. Because who knows? For all they know, they're fighting over the same God(s) told in a different way." Oh how very Hindu/ New age of you! ;D Also, I probably should have told you that my brother loves satire.... I have to do some work for my online course then I'll let him post after. Edited by Xamad, Sunday Feb 13 2011, 01:30 PM.
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| Isura | Sunday Feb 13 2011, 03:39 PM Post #14 |
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Xamad's brother (do you have a name I could use instead? :U) if you want to discuss the Dickwolves debate, or your own experiences of discrimination, I ask that you do carefully read all the articles and everything that I and Chris have posted first. Right now your arguments are already covered in both cases by things people have said. I think it's only common courtesy that if you want to challenge what I've written, that you actually do look at what I've written first. Rape humour! Xamad, you're onto a good point, but are missing something. Shakesville doesn't have an issue with rape humour as a concept (something she did go over). What she has a problem with is rape joking being used by rapists to mock rape victims. In one of her posts she is okay with rape victims using rape jokes to deal with the violence they experienced. She made a mock-up of a shirt showing a trophy with "soberist fuckhole" on it to mock the view that only drunk women are at risk of being raped (and thus placing the blame on the woman because she wouldn't have been raped if she hadn't decided to get drunk). What she does have an issue with are shirts that say "RELAX. Don't turn this rape into a murder" or "Stop Rape: Say Yes" or "Does this shirt make me look like a rapist to you?" (there are all actual shirts that are being sold). For the latter examples, a rapist could wear these unironically. This is nothing to do with helping the victim deal with what they went through. They are just about mocking rape and suggesting it is not a horrific crime. Xamad, I find your point on discrimination a bit of a straw-man. Just because people respond differently to things in different contexts doesn't make discrimination any less real and I don't see how your example is supporting anything but 'you can be a jerk to people you know because they know you don't mean it.' Hell, even on here that happens. I make overtures of activities that are illegal (stalking etc) to Chris, who in turn implies I'm a pedophile. We both know that the other is joking. In the same vein I've heard white people saying that their not being able to use the n-word because black people use it. What's important isn't the word itself, but the intention behind it. My own personal views are that since I was never systematically forced from my home country and forced into slavery but instead my history is about people who did and I benefited from this, well I think not being able to use racial slurs without being challenged for being racist is the very minimum of what I can do. So if you want to argue whatever it is you're trying to argue (I'm still not sure to be honest) you're gunna have to find a better example than that. I don't think anyone is arguing that the proper response to discrimination is anger. I feel I have a right to be angry (especially since, as a woman, I am expected not to get angry) but being angry isn't an end to itself, it's a marker of "I have put up with this shit for long enough. This needs to be changed." Are you saying that people shouldn't be angry at all? I would find it helpful if you clearly laid out what it is that you are trying to say so I don't misinterpret things. As for my thing about Christianity, that was more of a 'wink wink nudge nudge lol it's a joke' than any actual point. In hind sight, I should have clarified that. I don't have a problem with Christianity, I was raised baptist (little b) and while I no longer practice, I have nothing against my church. I don't agree with a lot of the viewpoints of most churches (I am aware that not every church has the same views on issues) but as long as those views are expressed in proper forums (aka the separation of church and state) and are not used in conjunction with hate crimes, I don't have a an issue with people who disagree with my views. However, I do find it frustrating when people go against their personal views on a subject because they feel like they can't disagree with the Bible. To me, forcing people to agree with the Bible even if they don't agree with in in order to be seen as a good Christian is wrong. I can give examples of this if people are confused by what I mean. I don't agree with young-earth creationists, or people that believe that the the Bible is against homosexuality, but I can understand why people believe this, and think that I could discuss it on their terms. That being said, if you want to discuss this I'd be open to it, but I will warn you that I have vested interested in both issues (particularly in homosexuality being seen as a sin). In regards to the shrimp thing, there is an often quoted verse in Leviticus that says homosexuality is wrong (specifically male homosexuality) which people often quote. Opponents point out that Leviticus also says that eating shellfish is wrong (among other things), but you don't see "God hates seafood" signs. I've heard it described as 'buffet Christians" where they pick and choose verses that are often taken out of context in order to justify a personal distaste for an issue. This is not always the case, and there are verses in the New Testament that talk about homosexuality (three that talk about it directly I think) but I think it's important to look at the motivation behind it. [ps Chris, if you're gunna mock my spelling, then it's only fair that you seem to have an unreasonable hatred of cooks ;D] |
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| Phrixscreoth | Sunday Feb 13 2011, 04:07 PM Post #15 |
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League of Legends kept me (mostly) sane~
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I actually have seen god hates seafood signs... used mockingly, of course. And on the topic of Leviticus, I was playing Assassin's Creed 2, and had to deliever a letter to a farmer who had been accused of something dreadful, and, if he were unfamiliar with the charge, should look up Leviticus 18:23. Getting crap past the radar ftw! Interesting double standard with the Leviticus and male homosexuality thing... So Girl on girl has been hot even since then? Warning: TVTropes will ruin you life, though it should be obvious as to what that trope is. Xamad, I don't see how God has a sense of humor from those lines. Also, I said what I ment, and Isura also said it. Discrimination is presesnt even if you use it in good humor. Finally, I'm not a fan of religion. Faith, totally cool with. People telling you what to believe, not so much. Listen to their answers, draw your own conclusions, live your life the way you want to live it as long as it doesn't hurt or interfere with others. Treat others the way THEY wish to be treated. |
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