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| Axle Rebuild | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 24 2011, 07:30 PM (2,013 Views) | |
| Jon | Aug 24 2011, 07:30 PM Post #1 |
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1954 CJ38
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Can anyone comment on rebuilding the front and rear axles? I understand it is the most complicated component to rebuild on a vehicle. If it is not set up properly it will fail prematurely. I've read the "jeep cj rebuilders manual" a few times and it seems to be a little unclear on setting the pinion gear position and ring gear backlash. does anyone know of a rebuilding video? I,m doing a total frame off restoration and the v6 swap so going through the 57 year old axels at this time makes sense. I didn't see much discussion on this in the 3B page archives. Any input or advice will be greatly appreciated. Best, Jon |
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54 (first one) all apart in basement, taking time, doing Engine swap (thinking sbc V8), disc brakes w/ vacuum assist. power steering. Love the look of a 3B but need the modern conveniences. Having a blast doing it. A Wise man Is Cognizant Of What He Doesn't Know. Worcester, MA | |
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| oldtime | Aug 24 2011, 07:45 PM Post #2 |
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To me it makes sense to fully envision the completed Jeep. The completed jeep must function as a synchronous system. The 1954 standard D-44 rear axle is probably not the optimum choice for a V-6 engine. Of course this depends much upon your expected usage. I envision the finnished jeep driving down a rough forest road when all of a sudden one rear wheel drops down into a bottomless mud hole. The driver instinctively hits the treadle hoping to get past the mud hole. The spinning tire grabs a solid rock and C R U N C H, the axle snaps in two.. Typically the axles ring and pinion gears are not rebuilt unless obvious wear is detected. As they say... IF IT AINT BROKE DON'T FIX IT I suggest you first estimate the overall condition by checking the R+P backlash. How far back and forth do the drive yokes move ? See: http://z4.invisionfree.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_B...3136&st=0&#last |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new | |
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| tow hook | Aug 25 2011, 08:46 AM Post #3 |
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tow hook, your western pa jeep guy
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if you can do engine work, you can do this. just like engine building there is specs, and tolances that must be followed. back lash, and the gear pattern should be fine. i'd worry about seals, and axle bearings, and axle shims. my self i'm in a frame off as well. and cause it's me.. every thing will be torn down.. every thing.... it's rewarding, but very time consuming and you blow your budget every time. just like my drive shaft post. ya never know what you'll find and needs fixed... but nothing should need replaced in my life time.. so i hope.. as for the v6 choise, would going from a 10 to 19 spline 44 help the problem ? my tires are over sized, so i'll learn what the 19 splines can do with a locker/ posi.. and as always i have a spare rear end for parts
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57 3b now a trans model 3b ![]() 93 xj r.i.p. 95 yj 33's daily driver 02 wj 33's wifes rig 98 xj rock crawler wanta be | |
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| jyotin | Aug 25 2011, 09:12 AM Post #4 |
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I don't always agree with Oldtime, but in this instance "if it aint broke, don't fix it" sounds pretty good to me. In fact, applying that logic to the whole jeep is good advice. I wouldn't fix anything that isn't broken. Old iron was built to be pretty bullet proof. Taking it apart is a risk because putting it back together takes a loooonnng time, and a lot of time, and is very expensive. Not to mention the garage space, or worse yet, the tarp over the hulk in the yard. If you bought the jeep to enjoy, figure out the minimum that has to be done to make it safe, and do it. Then drive it. Odds are you won't own the jeep for all that long, so why sink a lot of unnecessary $$$ into it? j |
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It's just my luck that something good is going to happen to me today. 54 - 3B - down on the farm 67 - cj6 - former state of Alabama vehicle ?? - cj5 T98a - made from spare parts - Ford tractor blue ?? - cj5 T98a - made from spare parts - Jeep green | |
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| Duffer | Aug 25 2011, 09:25 AM Post #5 |
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Should be no problem doing those. The FSM outlines the process well. You will need a good dial indicator and a case spreader really does help but it can be done without one. Most definately get a set of set-up bearings for the carrier (Randy's?). A hydraulic press is also very helpful. I would go with the 19 spline axles (or a Herm's 30 spline conversion) and full float. Makes loosing a wheel in Ken's example highly unlikely-even if you did snap an axle shaft. Doing Herm's conversion opens the door for a much bigger selection of traction devises, but probably isn't any stronger than the 19 spline setup as the shafts neck down at the spindles and it uses a standard 27 spline drive flange. I need to replace my rear axle (so width will match new front) and have been thinking about using D60 spindles on a 44 housing with Ford 5x5.5" hubs so one could use full diameter 30 or 33 spline shafts. Machining an adapter plate doesn't look too difficult. I have had 19 spline full float axles in my 3B for someplace around 36 years and have had no problems behind 2 different healthy sbc's, using both a Detroit Locker and a juiced PowrLoc. |
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John, SW Montana 55 CJ 3B, transmake, fiberglass/aluminum tub/hood/fenders, 381 sbc, AGE M22W trans, "super" D18/Teralows & Warn OD, D44/ARB/Dutchman front & full float D44/Powrloc rear axles-4.10's, Holbrook springs, 4 wheel power discs, Saginaw PS, Warn 8274 68 CJ5, stock 225, T86AA, D18w/ Warn OD, D27A & stock D44 (heavy duty housing)-4.88's, 11" brakes, stock Ross box, Belleview 6000 (a close to stock vehicle, including the Whitco top) | |
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| Frank | Aug 25 2011, 11:12 AM Post #6 |
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Hi Jon, Setting up axles and rebuilding them is rather easy, and rebuilding them now with the restoration is a good idea, at very least just to say you did, Now give you a few pointers from what I know as "General Rules " #1 keep Track of all existing shims and locations, this is key if they where happy when you tore them down rebearing and seals and keep the shims about the same, #2 Backlash .008-.012 #3 Pinion preload, 20-25 inch pound of drag on the pinion, not to tight just a nice lil drag, #4 Carrier bearing preload, a few thousands, while as mentioned it is nice to have the spreader tool not required on these smaller axles, should be just a real good tight squeeze when sliding the carrier in the housing, Require some force to install, And of course if your doing up your frt knuckles @ the same time, Well thats been my area a focus, Check out Backwoodsgoopinfo.com |
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| Jon | Aug 25 2011, 07:36 PM Post #7 |
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1954 CJ38
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Oldtime, you brought up the one thing that was haunting me, should I upgrade while I have it tore down? The CJ rebuilders guide recommended a Warn axle upgrade but after research I've learned that Warn discontinued making the Dana 44 axle upgrade. Duffer, I see you mentioned a 19 spline upgrade kit from Herm, thanks, I'll check that out. I've seen a few forums from some 4 wheeling sites that talk about making the axles and purchasing the balance of the OEM parts to perform the 19 spline axle upgrade. Thats not for me, I already know I will end up with a bucket of parts until I get it all right.....Duffer what does fsm stand for and what is a juiced powerloc? tow hook, we share similar traits, tare it apart, inspect, replace rebuild or adjust. Make it dependable. That was a confident statement you said "if you can do engine work you can do this".. Frank, I see all the tolerances in the few manuals that I have, however I guess I just need to see how to set up the dial indicator, where to stick the feeler gauges, what to wiggle, move and turn. May be I should watch a video on any axle rebuild and not try to find one specific to a Dana44.. jyotin yes the old saying, "if it aint broke don't fix it" my schooling, certifications and career background is commercial refrigeration and the main focus of that trade is preventative maintenance. What a terrible curse that has put on me. I am an absolute maintenance freak and probably have OCD on top of that. The theory is to keep every thing in tune in shape, inspection protocols along with lubrication schedules....Refer compressors are very expensive so the key was to not let them fail by caring for them like a child. Although I do have a few examples of a few things I can apply the "if it aint broke don't fix it' rule to..... gas grills, roofing nailers, washing machines and dryers, lol... Thank you everyone for your sincere thoughts and input , this 3B page absolutely amazes me with the wealth of knowledge, free giving advice and experiences it offers. I will update my findings and decision. Best, Jon |
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54 (first one) all apart in basement, taking time, doing Engine swap (thinking sbc V8), disc brakes w/ vacuum assist. power steering. Love the look of a 3B but need the modern conveniences. Having a blast doing it. A Wise man Is Cognizant Of What He Doesn't Know. Worcester, MA | |
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| oldtime | Aug 25 2011, 08:01 PM Post #8 |
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Don't get me wrong the 10 spline D44 tapered axles (pre 1957) are not weak. It's just that the typical D-225 has a huge 48 pound flywheel and the 10.4 " clutch is good for 250 ft pounds of torque. The Hurricane has a 28 pound flywheel @ 165 ft pounds with 8-1/2" or 215 ft pounds with heavy duty 9-1/4" clutch. A Hurricane powered CJ will be very hard pressed to ever snap an axle shaft. If you expect to run it hard go ahead and upgrade at least to the 19 spline tapered axles. If you really wanna kick it hard then find an offset flanged model 44 (1970, 1971 only) For the few who are serious about a V-8 engine they need to beef up the frame and consider a D60. Here's a comparison of the D 44 axle shafts. As you can see the spline diameters increase. SPLINE COUNT---MIN DIA---SPLINE DIA--WB DIA----SIDES------MACHINE 10 front..............1.00"........1.120"..........xxx...........straight......hobbed 10 rear..............1.225"......1.225"..........1.375".......straight......hobbed 19 rear..............1.125"......1.245"..........1.375".......straight......hobbed 30 rear..............1.240"......1.285.".........1.55".........straight......rolled |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new | |
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| tow hook | Aug 25 2011, 09:27 PM Post #9 |
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tow hook, your western pa jeep guy
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Duffer, I see you mentioned a 19 spline upgrade kit from Herm, thanks, I'll check that out. I've seen a few forums from some 4 wheeling sites that talk about making the axles and purchasing the balance of the OEM parts to perform the 19 spline axle upgrade. Thats not for me, I already know I will end up with a bucket of parts until I get it all right.....Duffer what does fsm stand for and what is a juiced powerloc? it's a 30 spline full floater kit, not a 19 slpine.. but empty your pockets it will be pricey, these kits were made by warn, years back. fsm = factory service manual, and a power loc = a locker/ posi unit, replaces the spyder gears it uses teeth,/ clutchs not air powered or uses magnets. the clutchs can be packed so it grips more vs less tow hook, we share similar traits, tare it apart, inspect, replace rebuild or adjust. Make it dependable. That was a confident statement you said "if you can do engine work you can do this".. thanks, it's all nuts and bolts, with specs.. the right tools and some good info will get you a long ways... so far on this project, i've done a trans/ t-case and a tapered 44... we are a ear to bend, and help give feed back
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57 3b now a trans model 3b ![]() 93 xj r.i.p. 95 yj 33's daily driver 02 wj 33's wifes rig 98 xj rock crawler wanta be | |
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| Duffer | Aug 26 2011, 08:24 AM Post #10 |
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Ken, I agree with everything in your post except the necessity of a D60 for use behind a V8. My experience strongly suggests a 44 will be fine-with a few upgrades. In the past, the side and spider gears have caused me the most grief, but these are eliminated with just about all traction devises. The next weakest point is the actual axle shafts, which full float kits greatly improve by eliminating all but rotational loading, but are still limited by the internal diameter of the 25/27/30/44 spindles-the only ones I have ever seen used for the conversion. I have yet to see 44 ring and pinion failure due to just imposed stress in a CJ 2A-5 although I am sure it can happen if you put big enough tires on there. D60 certainly are adequate beef for about anything you can throw at them in a Jeep, but they are also heavy, you loose at least an inch of ground clearence, and if you are already driveshaft length handicapped, it will make it even shorter-or you have to start stretching the wheelbase. For the trails I like to do, a longer wheelbase is not helpful. |
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John, SW Montana 55 CJ 3B, transmake, fiberglass/aluminum tub/hood/fenders, 381 sbc, AGE M22W trans, "super" D18/Teralows & Warn OD, D44/ARB/Dutchman front & full float D44/Powrloc rear axles-4.10's, Holbrook springs, 4 wheel power discs, Saginaw PS, Warn 8274 68 CJ5, stock 225, T86AA, D18w/ Warn OD, D27A & stock D44 (heavy duty housing)-4.88's, 11" brakes, stock Ross box, Belleview 6000 (a close to stock vehicle, including the Whitco top) | |
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| oldtime | Aug 26 2011, 09:45 AM Post #11 |
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Yeah, I used the term "consider" to imply that D-44's maybe are not be strong enough for V-8 power. This all really depends on the particular V-8. I agree with your experience. Thanks for sharing. Personally I would likely not build up a CJ with D-60's. I feel that the CJ was intended to stay light . All Light Reconnisance Vehicle (LRV) prototypes were over weight concerning the original US Army weight stipulation. Overweigt even after the weight stipulation was raised. Due to the shaft diameters I feel that the flanged type axles are the strongest over all. |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new | |
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| Jon | Aug 26 2011, 09:53 PM Post #12 |
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1954 CJ38
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Could someone direct me to a link that explains "full floating axle" I've read that the Dana 44 stock is a semi floating axle, however full floating makes it stronger? I cant seem to find the definitions.....Thanks. |
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54 (first one) all apart in basement, taking time, doing Engine swap (thinking sbc V8), disc brakes w/ vacuum assist. power steering. Love the look of a 3B but need the modern conveniences. Having a blast doing it. A Wise man Is Cognizant Of What He Doesn't Know. Worcester, MA | |
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| Duffer | Aug 26 2011, 10:11 PM Post #13 |
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A full float axle is just like a 25/27 front axle (which are full float). In a full float, the hub is supported by a pair of wheel bearings riding on a spindle through which the axle shaft passes. The end of the axle can be terminated by lockout hubs, drive flanges or an integral axle flange which engage the end of the hub (usually 6 or 8 bolts). The axle shaft "floats" through the spindle and therefore has no shear loading (the entire weight loading is through the wheel bearings/spindle only). To me, the greatest benefit of full float is that the wheel will stay in place even if the axle shaft is broken. |
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John, SW Montana 55 CJ 3B, transmake, fiberglass/aluminum tub/hood/fenders, 381 sbc, AGE M22W trans, "super" D18/Teralows & Warn OD, D44/ARB/Dutchman front & full float D44/Powrloc rear axles-4.10's, Holbrook springs, 4 wheel power discs, Saginaw PS, Warn 8274 68 CJ5, stock 225, T86AA, D18w/ Warn OD, D27A & stock D44 (heavy duty housing)-4.88's, 11" brakes, stock Ross box, Belleview 6000 (a close to stock vehicle, including the Whitco top) | |
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| Jon | Aug 26 2011, 10:22 PM Post #14 |
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1954 CJ38
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Ok, so if I were to make an analogy example using other components. The drive line drive shaft would be an example of full floating and maybe the steering wheel shaft would be an example of how the stock Dana 44 is set up now? |
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54 (first one) all apart in basement, taking time, doing Engine swap (thinking sbc V8), disc brakes w/ vacuum assist. power steering. Love the look of a 3B but need the modern conveniences. Having a blast doing it. A Wise man Is Cognizant Of What He Doesn't Know. Worcester, MA | |
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| oldtime | Aug 27 2011, 09:54 AM Post #15 |
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READ: http://z4.invisionfree.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_B...?showtopic=3004 http://z4.invisionfree.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_B...1119&st=0&#last |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new | |
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7:39 PM Jul 10