Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Home

Welcome to the CJ-3B Bulletin Board, the discussion forums section of the website CJ3B.info. Everyone is invited to view the postings here, but you must register as a member in order to post messages. The moderator reserves the right to remove items posted. Items may be archived in the Tech Tips section of the website. If you post a tech problem, please follow up by posting the solution when it is found, as it may be useful to other readers. For forums covering other Jeep models, see the bottom of this page.

Search for keywords or phrases anywhere in the CJ-3B Bulletin Board using Google. Enter key words here.

Google
WWW CJ-3B Bulletin Board
You're currently viewing the forums as a guest. This means there are some features you can't use. If you register, you'll be able to post messages and use member-only features such as customizing your profile and sending personal messages. Registration is simple and free.


Join the CJ-3B Bulletin Board!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
bad leak; from where is it coming?
Topic Started: Sep 11 2012, 12:52 PM (3,332 Views)
gianas
Member
[ *   *   *   *   *  ]
The leak, shown in the photo, produces two cups a week. I don't "know" —can’t see or locate—from where it's coming. Could you, please, offer your input, but, hopefully with a bit more thought than the following “expert.”

A forum member from the same state told me to go to this special 4WD shop about 50 or 60 miles from me because they're experts there. The owner of the shop tried to sell me a half-dozen, unneeded 4WD additions, costing as much as I paid for the jeep. Then he looked at what I've shown you and said the leak was from the rear, main seal, and it would take at least five or six hours of his shop’s time to stop the leak. He didn't touch the fluid or smell the leaking fluid. He just looked at what you're seeing in the photo below.
Posted Image

As you know, I know next to nothing about auto mechanics. Nevertheless, I touched the fluid and and smelled it. The fluid looks, feels, and smells like gear oil, not engine oil and "appears" to come out of the circular "indentation" —three-eighths-inch “hole”—at the bottom of the transmission, shown in the photo. You can see three, yellowish-green drips forming, the largest coming from the "hole" in the bottom of the transmission. From what gasket might this fluid be coming? I have no idea, but this I do know:

I have lost fluid in the transfer case but no engine oil. Daily checks have consistently indicated this finding: I'm loosing zero engine oil from daily driving; however, I am loosing approx. two cups of gear oil a week. (Yes, I replace it.) Thanks for your suggestions.
Greg

ps
A bit more information: (1) When the engine's hot, the oil drips "drip" at one-second intervals for at least ten minutes. (2) The previous owner installed a Warn overdrive (OD) without checking on the teeth count and toasted the OD as a result, while needing to rebuild the transmission, which he said he did. Recent work appears to have been done on the transmission: the protective plate was off when I bought the jeep, and the transmission's cover had been freshly painted. There are no perceivable problems with the transmission. I don't know enough to guess from where the leak of gear oil is coming.
Greg Gianas
Redmond, Washington
1954 3B, daily driver; old, beat up but still strong,
last vehicle I'll probably ever own,
purchased May 2012;

first vehicle and jeep owned: back in 1965-66 (1965 CJ-5, Hurricane 134 engine); no better memories
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Daryl
Member Avatar
Member
[ *   *   *   *   *  ]
It is likely coming from the bearing retainer on the front of the transmission. If trans work was done and the bearing retainer was removed, it most likely did not get resealed with either a new gasket or rtv sealer. If it drips alot right after driving, and then slows to a gradual stop that is where I would start. To reseal it however, the transmision needs to be split from the bellhousing by either dropping the transmission and transfer case or pulling the engine. The clutch friction disk would also be best to replace while apart as it may have been exposed to gear oil.
Lotsa Jeeps, and a few extra parts
In Bonney Lake, Washington
Always willing to look at a Jeep for you BEFORE you buy it to check it out.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
gianas
Member
[ *   *   *   *   *  ]
Daryl: What you say, besides coming from someone who's "been there and done that," makes sense because I've noticed, in the few months I've had the jeep, that the clutch is progressively becoming less "normal," engaging "later" than normal and slipping more, while making a sound that's not "correct," either.

At this point, I'm over my head. Replacing brake shoes, adjusting brakes, the fuel pump deal, and beginning to learn how to tune the engine were one set of things to handle myself. However, dropping the transmission or taking out the engine is quite a different deal for me.

I have the feeling if I take the jeep to the 4WD place suggested by someone else on the forum, after the fiasco with the springs and brakes at another "reputable shop," they'll soak me, like the previous place did for work they didn't do. I asked to be present during the work, and of course the answer was no.

Every day I have this jeep, I understand why those with old Willys jeeps do their own work and why OT said novices like me shouldn't buy vehicles like this. The truth's the truth.
greg
Greg Gianas
Redmond, Washington
1954 3B, daily driver; old, beat up but still strong,
last vehicle I'll probably ever own,
purchased May 2012;

first vehicle and jeep owned: back in 1965-66 (1965 CJ-5, Hurricane 134 engine); no better memories
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
spm1us
Member
[ *   *   *   *   *  ]
Greg, you should be easily able to distinguish between the smell of engine oil and gear oil. Since you are not losing/depleting the engine's oil, but are constantly having to add gear oil, it is logical that your problem is with the T90 transmission's front bearing retainer. I don't believe that the countershaft would leak this much and stop because it is below the normal level of the T90's gear oil and would constantly drip . You will have to have the transmission/transfer case removed along with the shift tower mechanism. I would replace the "open" front bearing with a sealed bearing and plug the oil return hole with a small pipe plug or silicone gasket sealant. There is an excellent T90 rebuild guide by Rick Stivers @ "http://www.willystech.com/wt/T90RebuildGuide/T90rebuild.htm" that will help you understand all the T90's intricacies. It is a very simple 3 speed transmision. You will need a gasket kit, the sealed bearing part number can be found in the guide and basic handools. Unless you want to procure another T90 from Herm, already rebuilt, with the sealed bearing in place up front. Then you could do a quick trans swap and have a spare trans to work on while you still have an operational/functional Jeep. Hope this helps - Good Luck with your project, Sam Michael Jr, Jax, FL
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
oldtime
Member Avatar
MODERATOR
[ *   *   *   *   *  ]
Quote:
 
As you know, I know next to nothing about auto mechanics.
You are learning quickly.
Quote:
 
I understand why those with old Willys jeeps do their own work and why OT said novices like me shouldn't buy vehicles like this.
As they say...You have gotten off the porch to run with the big dogs.
Don't give out now .... keep running with the pack.

Quote:
 
Nevertheless, I touched the fluid and and smelled it. The fluid looks, feels, and smells like gear oil, not engine oil and "appears" to come out of the circular "indentation" —three-eighths-inch “hole”—at the bottom of the transmission, shown in the photo.
This merely proves that you already know something more than the so called 4WD specialist.
You have used your mind and your senses to guide your understanding of the problem.
F.Y.I. The 3/8" hole that you mention is the bottom of the bellhousing and not the transmission.

Quote:
 
I have lost fluid in the transfer case but no engine oil. Daily checks have consistently indicated this finding: I'm loosing zero engine oil from daily driving; however, I am loosing approx. two cups of gear oil a week.
You have posativly identified the main source.

As other have mentioned you need to address the mainshaft seal and gasket of the front bearing retainer.
Locate parts #3 and #54 : http://www.film.queensu.ca/CJ3B/Photos/Par...ransmission.gif

Also as Darl has mentioned you must inspect the clutch assembly while the transmission is down.

Removing the transmission and transfer case assemblies is the most physically demanding of all Jeep repairs.
Are you up to that task ? The work is hard, the payoff is self reliance.
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)

http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
gianas
Member
[ *   *   *   *   *  ]
This is a laughable, dramatic, and admirable circumstance that there are men who can and will help someone with my ignorance and lack of experience do something this significant via a computer. Yes, I know it's "piece of cake" for those who grew up doing this kind of stuff, but it's like doing brain surgery on yourself, from my perspective.

What kind of heavy-duty gear do I need to drop the transmission on, to be able to roll it out from underneath the jeep, if all I've got, right now, are jack stands? I'm assuming the transmission has to come all the way out to replace the identified parts, right?

Also, I don't have any specialized tools other than the basics (ratchets ...). What special tools will I need?

When I locate the needed transmission-related and clutch-related parts, I'll be asking for thoughts on which supplier carries the best that's available, 'cause I don't want to put in junk after going at this task.

Thanks, Daryl and Sam and the offline wise man for offering your thoughts and suggestions.

I can use all the specific help I can get, to include what easy mistakes (for a novice) to avoid. It's what NOT to do that's as vital as what to do.

greg
Greg Gianas
Redmond, Washington
1954 3B, daily driver; old, beat up but still strong,
last vehicle I'll probably ever own,
purchased May 2012;

first vehicle and jeep owned: back in 1965-66 (1965 CJ-5, Hurricane 134 engine); no better memories
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
oldtime
Member Avatar
MODERATOR
[ *   *   *   *   *  ]
Someone please supply Greg with a tool list I'm all out time...
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)

http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
williams3b54
Williams3B54
[ *   *   *   *   *  ]
Greg, I resent the remark about somebody from my state sugested a jeep shop to you, and now are bad mouthing me because I mentioned the guys there would help you.
I don't know you or what you look like or even what your jeep looks like, but to help you on this blog we all need to know where you are coming from.
Everybody that has given you advise on where to put jack stands to what to do about a loss of power to what alternator to use and info on your OD are out there to help you. We do not know exactly what your problem is. You may be very well educated, but from what I read on this blog about your blogs about jeeps you are lacking "common sense". I think this blog does a very good job of helping everybody that gets on it for info or just to say something. But your blogs are wasting peoples time, when if you would just use a little common sense you could figure it out on your own.
Again I will not offer you a suggested place to take your jeep in Wa. for any help that you think you need. I am sorry that the guys in Snohomish might have turned you off, but jeep guys suck it up and find ways to solve their issues, whether it be in Wa. or Nc.
Again, show us your jeep. I know you can do it because you showed us your oil drips on your T-90
I am not being accusing, but think about what you put on this blog.
Dick W. Spokane Wa.
1954 CJ-3B
Semi-modified for trail riding in the Northwest.
See photos on CJ-3B page owners photos 1954.
1968 CJ-5/1975 231 odd fire V-6/ many other mods. ordered new from Toledo 1968.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
jking
Member
[ *   *   *   *   *  ]
Greg,

At the time I removed my tranny, tc I did not seek advice on this site as I hadn't found it yet. Given that, from my experience -

sae wrench set - ratchet set won't always fit in the tight spaces

rubber mallet

a set of brass drifts - 10 bucks from harbor freight, a good buy, you'll use them again, over and over.

If you need to remove the friction plate, you'll need a tool to align it properly when when you put the new one in (or the old one if it can be salavaged). An old main shaft works too and perhaps the more knowledgable ones on the site have other options too.

This is a good time to inspect the entire clutch assembly for wear while you've got it out. Better to replace it now than have to go back in next year when it wears out.

I had difficulty removing the pin holding the shifters of the tc - very tight space to work. I'm sure someone can provide a tip here.

You haven't mentioned any issues with the operation of the tranny and tc but once you've got the tranny, tc out you will want to do a close inspection of both - you don't want to pull them again. Inspect 2nd gear and synchronizer assembly closely for teeth wear. Also inspect the interior surface where the bearings run in the main shaft. It may be worthwhile to pull the cover on the tc to inspect the tc closely but you'll then need to replace that gasket. The intermediate shaft is often an area of wear .

If you will need to separate the tranny and tc, pay close attention to the procedure for doing so, otherwise you will end up having to rebuild the tranny after you hear the 88 roller bearing drop into the bottom of the tranny case.

If you do put a new bearing on the mainshaft, it's a bit of a trick if you don't have access to a press. Heat/cold combo can be used and again, others can detail this better than I can - I failed on my first attempt.

Here is an additional site that has detailed instuctions on both the tranny and tc disassembly/assembly.

http://www.novak-adapt.com/

Please also keep in mind that most of us are just like you, learning our way as we go along trying to share the things that we have learned. And that is the point of this site, Oldtime and the very knowledgable others are here to help and correct us but they are mostly here to help us help each other. Otherwise it would be called Oldtime's 3b site :)

1958 CJ3B F134 engine\Dana 25 with Spicer type axles\Dana 44 rear\T90 trans\Dana 18 transfer case.

Northest Ohio
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
gianas
Member
[ *   *   *   *   *  ]
Williams: You are not the only forum member in Washington state. I purposely did not identify either you or the shop you recommended. You just identified both.

I lack much more than you've described. Not everyone can be like you.

Regarding photos of the jeep's exterior: What the jeep looks like on the outside has nothing to do with the problems I'm trying to address on it's "insides" and "undersides." And, I'm no longer in the army regarding taking orders from "superiors."

When the jeep has original wheels and correct tires, I'll post pictures, if and when the "we" term you've repeatedly used becomes more honestly and accurately identified, and if the pictures of the jeep's exterior apply to the question(s) asked.

For now, this "picture" will have to do: The jeep is green, original-paint green. No three inches anywhere on the tub are without a distinct dent or deep scratch. The jeep will have it's original paint as long as I'm alive. The top is black, a Best Top. The wheels are oversized trailer wheels and white. The wheels and tires will go when I'm not busted, financially, from the cost of repairs, and be replaced with what came stock. That much-desired change will probably be a year away, now. The current wheels and tires make the jeep look like it's trying to be "cool" and "macho," rather than plain and original, from my point of view. That's the main reason why I feel no desire to take photos of what the jeep looks like. As with your jeeps, perhaps (perhaps) you may feel that the way your jeeps look is, in some ways, attached to you. I have that feeling about the old Ford truck (485,000 miles) I drive when it's running, and this jeep doesn't look/feel "right" to me because of the current wheels and tires. Again, this is the main reason why I haven't shared photos of the jeep with anyone I know, and certainly not when ordered to do so.

You're right: I probably ask for too much help. You've expressed this annoyance a few times before. I don't disagree with you, at all. It's a valid and probably deserved criticism.

Please don't feel obligated to read my posts.

Greg
Greg Gianas
Redmond, Washington
1954 3B, daily driver; old, beat up but still strong,
last vehicle I'll probably ever own,
purchased May 2012;

first vehicle and jeep owned: back in 1965-66 (1965 CJ-5, Hurricane 134 engine); no better memories
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
gianas
Member
[ *   *   *   *   *  ]
Jking: What you and others offered is a godsend to me, because it was specific, detailed and—as requested—mentioned specific, possible ways to make mistakes; that's only one, vital part of what's missing in service manuals. I haven't been able to find any shop within 60 miles, yet, with personnel who even know how to adjust the brakes. It was thanks to people like you, and Derek for letting me borrow his R-5 manual. That gave me the picture I needed to understand what to do, along with some specific instructions from Oldtime and Ratchet and others. If you've done this stuff six or a dozen or more times, it may be "a piece of cake," but not to someone who's only "repair" experience has been changing the oil.

Currently, I have no where else to go but to this forum. (Certainly, I will change that situation ASAP.) I appreciate your time, Sam's time, Daryl's time, Ratchet's time, Oldtime's time .... and all those who have tried to help someone who is way out of his comfort zone.

I realize I shouldn't be attempting to do what I'm trying to do with zero background in auto mechanics. I apologize for making anyone feel that I've wasted their time, and I regret asking so many questions.

Most of what you mentioned, Jking, such as "brass drifts," I'd never heard the names before now. It's like I'm on Mars, Williams; that's "one" of "my problems," being in foreign territory with an expensive (to me) machine at risk. I'm out of my league, clearly.

It's the information about things to avoid doing, the easy and embarrassing mistakes to make, explaining what's "obvious" to experts that's needed. Too often, "experts" forget what they didn't know when they began working on cars many decades ago; and if you've forgotten what you didn't know, it's difficult to be helpful to a novice. Thank you for showing that you haven't forgotten what you once didn't know. That kind of sharing of information is a great help.

Jking, Thankyou.

Greg
Greg Gianas
Redmond, Washington
1954 3B, daily driver; old, beat up but still strong,
last vehicle I'll probably ever own,
purchased May 2012;

first vehicle and jeep owned: back in 1965-66 (1965 CJ-5, Hurricane 134 engine); no better memories
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
spm1us
Member
[ *   *   *   *   *  ]
Greg, I am proud to be associated with the folks on this site and the WillysTech site for "Paying it ahead" - all of us were in the same position you're in at some point in our mechanical careers. Everyone here is extremely patient and generous with their knowledge and time. Having said that, I still feel that, despite the expense, a T90/D18 swap with reputable quality rebuilt units from Herm would be the most efficient solution to your problem. I don't know how far Herm is from you, but you could possibly drive to his shop and exchange the T90/D18. Study the two T90 rebuild guides mentioned and look at the D18 rebuild guide, too. Then you can decide if you want to tackle the rebuild(s) yourself. When I started, as a teen, my Uncle had a '31 Ford Model A that wouldn't run. I joined the local antique car club @ 15 - most of the members were in their 60's then and delighted in teaching a kid all about the old cars. I drove the Model A to high school and had a blast. Perhaps there is an AACA club or similar in your area. At least those guys could steer you to a reputable local/nearby shop that could help you with the "heavy" work. Most of the old car guys know who to use and who does what best locally. Take heart as my old WWII Russian friend used to tell all the newbies at Mercedes-Benz: "If one man built it - another man can take it apart and fix it!" Good Luck with your project, Sam Michael Jr, Jax, FL
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Doug
Member Avatar
Meridian, Idaho
[ *   *   *   *   *  ]
Few years ago, when I rebuilt my T-90/ D-18, I documented the entire process, including removing the transmission/transfer case from under the jeep.

I'm not saying this is the best or safest way to do it, but the basic steps are there. I'm beefy enough to be able to lay the assembly on my chest if need be and lift it in or out of place. You may want to rent/buy a transmission jack rather than using what you have on hand as I did. Here is the removal HERE

Should you need to separate the transmission/ transfer case, you can find that documentation HERE

If you're thinking on going through your transmission while it's out, HERE you go.

Rick Stivers produced a T-90 rebuild guide video. I'm not sure if those are still available. Rick's rebuild guide can be found HERE

If you just need to remove the transmission/transfer case and replace the front seal, you shouldn't have much trouble. Safety would be the biggest consideration - you don't want something falling on you as you remove or replace the assembly.

Good luck!
1963 CJ3B - F134 Hurricane, T-90C, D-18, 5.38s, Overdrive, 938YF, 12V alternator
1969 CJ5 - Dauntless V6, T-14, D-18
2004 TW 200
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
bob in NC
Member
[ *   *   *   *   *  ]
gianas

good morning

all my furniture is hand made and i have built a couple houses. but
i can't turn a wrench. it's to bad you are having problems with your B. i would try
and find someone who knows what they are doing and not try and sell you sumpting you don't need. might have to tow it someplace.

bob
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
gianas
Member
[ *   *   *   *   *  ]
Sam: Your suggestion about getting a rebuilt T90 from Herm is one I'll look into today. Sorry, I don't yet know what a D18 is, but I'll look through the service manual and find out what it is. Regarding your suggestion about going to the local, antique-car club. At my wife's suggestion, I did that two weeks ago; called'em a couple times, left messages. Maybe they're on vacation because they haven't returned the calls. I'll go there and find'em this week and see if they have any people like you there.

Not having the jeep down for long is a need. The first, recommended shop I used the first week I had the jeep took three-and-one-half weeks to replace the brakes and put on some new springs, even though I had all the parts required. Then, they didn't replace the brakes but charged me for that work, plus adjusting the brakes; and the eccentrics hadn't been touched when I got back the jeep: the securing nuts were all still rusted tight. I'd like to avoid a circumstance like that again—both the lost time, lost money, and the feelings that go with gross dishonesty. Hence, the Herm route is a good one. When I talked to Herm a few months back, he recommended a guy named Jim in a town called Auburn as the most competent mechanic he knows. I'll be calling him today and see if he'll let me help do the work so I can learn without doing the job two or three times. He may allow that because he works out of his home, I believe. Herm told me he "takes his stuff" to Jim. Not a bad recommendation, and Jim's about my age: "old" as people say. What helped me with the brakes was purposely doing them over and over again until I could literally do it with my eyes closed. That's the best way I've found to "train" with parts to something vital. Have some deadlines for paying-the-bills work, which is crunching me at the moment.
Thank you, Greg
Greg Gianas
Redmond, Washington
1954 3B, daily driver; old, beat up but still strong,
last vehicle I'll probably ever own,
purchased May 2012;

first vehicle and jeep owned: back in 1965-66 (1965 CJ-5, Hurricane 134 engine); no better memories
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · CJ-3B Posts · Next Topic »
Add Reply

Other Willys Jeep forums:

The CJ-2A Page has a CJ-2A Message Board.
There is also a CJ-3A Page Forum.
For CJ-5 and Dauntless V6 postings, see the Early CJ-5 Bulletin Board.
The Old Willys Forum is dedicated to wagons and pickups.
Surrey Gala and Dispatcher Jeeps are under DJ-3A Dispatcher Posts.
The M38/M38A1/M606 Preservation Group has a forum.
For other CJ and military Jeeps, see the g503 Message Boards.
See the Forward Forum for Forward Control Jeeps.
To post ads for other Willys parts or Jeeps, see the WillysTech Buy/Sell/Swap Message Board.
For tech problems with other Willys models, try the WillysTech e-mail list.
The Bantam Trailer forum covers Jeep trailers.