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| Starving for fuel | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 19 2012, 05:57 PM (1,883 Views) | |
| binthere | Sep 19 2012, 05:57 PM Post #1 |
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Just a couple of quick questions?? I have a 1953 3b that I restored in 2009. I put a new dual action fuel pump on at that time, and was still having problem to keep running. I was in a hurry to get it running, so ordered a new Solex carb, and installed it. It has been running fairly decent since that, except lately it was hard starting. I put new points and condense in and that seemed to help.We probably did about 100 miles or so on and offroading this summer, and it seemed to run pretty nice. This spring I ordered a rebuild kit for the original yf, and while we were on holidays, had a carburetor mechanic rebuild it. When I put it on, it seemed to run and start better than wit the Solex. The other day, I drove about 1/2 mile and it just quit and would'nt start again. We towed it home and because the carb was rebuilt, I suspected a problem with the fuel pump. I disconnected the line from the carb, and checked for gas and pressure to that point. All seemed good, so reconnected the line and it started right up. Went for another test drive and got to the exact spot as before!! I'm still suspect of the fuel pump. As I said, the pump is a dual action, but I have insalled electric wipersand don't need the vacume side. The question is, what do I do with the vacume line from the fuel pump that t's into the line from the pcv valve to the intake manifold?? Can I just plug that line at the t at the front of block, and use the single action pump?? Thank's for any help
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somedays your the windsheild--somedays your the bug Chuck - Cherryville B.C. Canada 53 3b [0IIIII0] stock except for wheel's and seats " a fistfull of dollars" 49 willys jeepster " a few dollars more" and a few other retirement toys | |
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| oldtime | Sep 19 2012, 06:32 PM Post #2 |
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Assuming the problem is fuel related the quickest way to narrow down the problem area is to check the fuel level inside the Carter fuel well immediately after the Jeep falters. If the Carter fuel well level is near 1-1/8" deep then consider that correct fuel volume is being supplied to the carburetor. If the fuel level in the well is found to be notably low then consider that the fuel supply to the carburetor is your concern. That then indicates a problem with either the tank, the fuel tubes, the fuel pump or fuel filtering. Fuel pump can be tested for volume by letting it pump into an open container. Fuel pump can be tested for pressure by connecting its output to a vacuum / pressure guage. |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new | |
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| binthere | Sep 20 2012, 12:20 PM Post #3 |
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Thank's Oldtime I checked the fuel flow yesterday, and it didn't seem to be pumping in a steady stream or pulse. I was also able to hold the preasure back on the line with my thumb, and do not believe that that is enough preasure? My other question was - I have a new single action pump that I bought for my jeepster project, and was wondering why I couldn't use it on the 3b because I dont need the vacum for the wipers. I was just curious about the vacum line that runs from the fuel pump, and joins with the line from the pcv valve to the intake manifold. Can I just plug that line off to use the single action pump?? Thank's again |
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somedays your the windsheild--somedays your the bug Chuck - Cherryville B.C. Canada 53 3b [0IIIII0] stock except for wheel's and seats " a fistfull of dollars" 49 willys jeepster " a few dollars more" and a few other retirement toys | |
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| oldtime | Sep 20 2012, 06:50 PM Post #4 |
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Yes a single stage fuel pump is actually preferable in cases where the jeep is not equipped with vacuum wipers. The brass "T" fitting near the PCV must be plugged or removed. If you were to leave that fitting open then the manifold would suck in air. Also the pcv will not operate unless the crankcase pressure rises above atmospheric pressure. |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new | |
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| binthere | Sep 23 2012, 03:06 PM Post #5 |
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Plugged off the vacum line at the pcv valve fitting, and installed the single stage fuel pump. The pump seem's to have much better preasure, but the motor still will not run. It will start, but then just dies, as starving for fuel!! Will remove the rebuilt carter Yf tomorrow, and re-install Solex that I removed, and see if it will run with that!! The carburerater mechanic suggested that it might also be a coil failure, but not quite sure about that diagnosis?? |
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somedays your the windsheild--somedays your the bug Chuck - Cherryville B.C. Canada 53 3b [0IIIII0] stock except for wheel's and seats " a fistfull of dollars" 49 willys jeepster " a few dollars more" and a few other retirement toys | |
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| oldtime | Sep 23 2012, 04:03 PM Post #6 |
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I suggest you leave the Carter intact for now. Try starting it once again then if it does not run remove all 4 spark plugs and tell us what you see. Wet ? Dry ? Carbon black ? Grey ? |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new | |
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| binthere | Sep 24 2012, 02:25 PM Post #7 |
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Sorry Oldtime!! It seems that I'm to dumb to check the thread for a reply before I went out this morning and changed the carb!! :angry: After I changed the carb, I poured a little gas down the carb and it started right up. That lasted about one minute before it stopped, same as before! I tried to start it several more times, but would not keep running!! After that, I came in and checked the board and read your reply!! I then went out and checked the plugs. The result's- #1- small amount of carbon-dry-gap .030 #2- same as #1 #3- same as #1&2 #4- same as #1,2&3 This time I WILL wait for your reply!! <_< |
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somedays your the windsheild--somedays your the bug Chuck - Cherryville B.C. Canada 53 3b [0IIIII0] stock except for wheel's and seats " a fistfull of dollars" 49 willys jeepster " a few dollars more" and a few other retirement toys | |
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| oldtime | Sep 24 2012, 06:28 PM Post #8 |
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Because the plugs were found to be dry dry you should assume that fuel is not being sucked up into the cylinders. You already stated that the fuel pump seems to be pumping O.K. Now let's see if fuel is actually getting into the carburetor. Re-install the Carter YF since it will be much easier to diagnose with standard components in place. After that try starting for a full minute or so. If your fuel pump has a glass dome you should be able to see the gasoline being pumped. If the jeep will not start: I suggest you remove the air horn assembly (top of carburetor) and take a look inside the fuel well. Whenever inspecting the fuel well always look for the presence of dirt particles in the bottom of the well. Measure the exact depth of fuel in the well and report your findings. Similar post: http://z4.invisionfree.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_B...?showtopic=4368 |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new | |
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| binthere | Sep 24 2012, 08:12 PM Post #9 |
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I'm sorry Oldtime, but I don't understand " the fuel well". Is that in the bottom of the intake manifold?? Please explain! Not quite sure of terminology! Another possibility coud be the new condenser that I installed?? |
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somedays your the windsheild--somedays your the bug Chuck - Cherryville B.C. Canada 53 3b [0IIIII0] stock except for wheel's and seats " a fistfull of dollars" 49 willys jeepster " a few dollars more" and a few other retirement toys | |
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| Doug | Sep 24 2012, 08:57 PM Post #10 |
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Here are some pics. Ken, if I have this wrong, just delete. The air horn that you should remove (top most portion of the carb): ![]() The fuel well: ![]() Hope the pics help a little bit. A link with parts identification: http://www.film.queensu.ca/cj3b/Photos/Tec...rter/YF3Bp2.gif |
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1963 CJ3B - F134 Hurricane, T-90C, D-18, 5.38s, Overdrive, 938YF, 12V alternator 1969 CJ5 - Dauntless V6, T-14, D-18 2004 TW 200 | |
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| oldtime | Sep 25 2012, 09:08 AM Post #11 |
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Thanks Doug, that's just perfect.\ Install YF. Crank engine over for a total duration of 45 seconds to one full minute. That should allow plenty of time for the fuel pump to fill the fuel well. Do not crank continuously if you have a 12 volt battery on a 6 volt starter. You can also crank engine with spark plugs removed if your concerned with draining the battery. Do not remove the carburetor from the jeep. Only remove the upper air horn assembly. The ideal level of gasoline in the YF fuel well is 1-1/8" deep. It may vary from that depth somewhat depending on several factors. Measure fuel depth with a rule and record. If dirt particles are found in the bottom of the well then clean them out and report you findings. |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new | |
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| binthere | Sep 25 2012, 11:29 AM Post #12 |
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Thank's guy's. I'll see if I can get that done today!! |
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somedays your the windsheild--somedays your the bug Chuck - Cherryville B.C. Canada 53 3b [0IIIII0] stock except for wheel's and seats " a fistfull of dollars" 49 willys jeepster " a few dollars more" and a few other retirement toys | |
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| binthere | Sep 26 2012, 01:34 PM Post #13 |
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Yesterday was day at the chiropracter, but right at it this morning!! Yes, I see the gas pumping real good at the fuel pump. It started pretty much right away, but died again in about less than a minute. It started several more times, but died almost immidiatley. I then pulled the air horn assembly off the carb and I could see a very small amount of fine brown grit plus I could see some real fine filling or something that look's like brass! The fuel level in the fuel well measured 3/4 of an inch. By the way, I did put the carter yf back on before the test! Will wait for your reply!! |
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somedays your the windsheild--somedays your the bug Chuck - Cherryville B.C. Canada 53 3b [0IIIII0] stock except for wheel's and seats " a fistfull of dollars" 49 willys jeepster " a few dollars more" and a few other retirement toys | |
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| oldtime | Sep 26 2012, 06:18 PM Post #14 |
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Clean the debris out of the Carter fuel well; then you should re-install the air horn assembly. For now we will just keep in mind the brass particles. They could be from several sources. 3/4 inch depth of gasoline in the fuel well is far below standard and that specifically is the main cause of the engines intermittant firing. I fully expect that its probably not even enough fuel to idle the engine without dying. So the main problem must be from the carburetor fuel well on back to the fuel tank. You previously indicated that the fuel pump seems to be working fine but I say a solid test is in order. I do not know if your Jeep has standard fuel tubes ? I do not know if your Jeep has a filter system. Please describe ... Do you have a vacuum / pressure gauge ? If so remove the fuel tube going to the carburetor and attach a length of hose. Plumb this hose from the fuel pump outlet into your pressure gauge. Momentarily crank the engine with the starter motor. Please indicate the pressure reading of the fuel. You should also test the fuel pump for volume. Run the hose into a small can maybe 12 ounces and see how long it takes to fill the can. Pleae specify your findings. Ounces and time... |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new | |
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| oldtime | Sep 27 2012, 09:35 AM Post #15 |
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Because this topic is titled STARVING FOR FUEL, it is a great place to post the following information concerning the correct level of gasoline in the Carter fuel well. With Jeep on level ground.... The normal level of gasoline measured in the Carter YF fuel well is 1-1/4" maximum depth. It may drop down to 1-1/8" before the inlet valve opens to allow a fresh supply. Know that the exact level of fuel in the well is fully dependant on the correct operation of the inlet valve. When too little fuel is being supplied into the well the level drops as fuel is consumed. The fuel leaves the well via the metering rod jet AKA the main jet. The main jet is located exactly 5/8" above the bottom of the fuel well. This extra 5/8" allows most solid particulate to settle out where it remains in the bottom of the well. The Hurricane engine will begin to sputter at 3/4" depth and will no longer run at 1/2" depth. Realize that the gasoline is vibrating in the well and the main jet begins to suck air at the 3/4" depth. 1/2" depth is technically below the level of the main jet but the vibrating gasoline may continue to enter the main jet until it's 1/8" below the main jet. This means the engine begins to operate erratically at 3/4" depth and gasoline supply completely exhausted at 1/2" depth. |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new | |
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