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| transmission repair; four questions | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 2 2012, 11:44 AM (2,198 Views) | |
| gianas | Oct 2 2012, 11:44 AM Post #1 |
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Have five (5) questions based on the following reply to a question from Rick Stivers (author of often-used T-90 rebuild instructions) and something Novak (parts supplier) has written about the T90, in addition to comments from a couple people who have mentioned possible clutch problems as a result of the transmission leak. Stivers quote will come first, then Novak's recommendations, with questions following. Here's Stivers' answer to a question about my substantial leak. "Greg, It is very common for the transmission to leak oil where you are talking about because the only thing holding the oil inside the transmission at the input shaft is the felt washer. It you do a few test you find that felt it a very poor oil seal. The front bearing is an open bearing that is washed in oil as the transmission runs. However, it isn't common for the T-90 to leak that much oil so I'm guessing the seal it bad and that the oil collector is probably missing from a prior rebuild. Many people have solved this problem by replacing the front bearing with a sealed bearing (part #.SKF---6208-2RSNRJ/EM or MRC brand Part #208-SZZG These part numbers are almost 10 years old but you should be able to find the equivilent parts today). However, there is more to it than just replacing the open bearing with a sealed bearing. You must also seal up around the bearing and the oil return hole. Once all that is done it should run without too many leaks. You will need to perform a minor rebuild to replace the bearing so I recommend the basic rebuild parts kit. Make sure you are not overfilling the transmission with oil. You should only fill it up to the bottom of the fill port. Anything over that will quickly find it's way out. ... I hope this helps. Rick Stivers" ___________ Four questions: The sealed bearing Rick recommends is readily available at Napa; it's price is now (Nov. 30, 2012): $57.67. For those who may want to know, the part is currently cross-referenced to SKF-6208-2RSJ. Question one: To those who have used both sealed and unsealed bearings in this position in the transmission: Do you recommend the sealed bearing or an unsealed bearing? Maybe the answer isn't obvious; I don't know. _____ Here's something Novak has written about rebuilding the T-90, which left me with some questions they haven't answered, yet. "T90 Oil Collectors These T90 oil collectors are no longer available by any manufacturer. However, no other major transmission uses such a device. The main problem presented to engineers here is that the T90 and Dana 18 typically shared transmission fluid, and on a steep incline, fluid could drain from the T90 into the Dana transfer case. The collector was a last line of defense in keeping the front bearings of the transmission oiled in such a scenario. If your T90's oil collector is damaged or missing, we recommend running a full face gasket or port plug between the T90 and Dana transfer case, and then filling them with oil independently. This will allow a T90 perform safely without the need for an oil collector." __________ Question two: Does anyone have a spare oil collector they can sell me? (No, I don't know, yet, whether it's there or not, or damaged. Need to be prepared) Question three: What is your view of Novak's recommendation concerning putting a "full-face gasket or port plug between the T90 and the Dana transfer case," especially if I find that my oil collector is gone or damaged? Maybe I have no choice; I don't yet know because of my lack of knowledge about transmissions. ______ Here's a response from Jer at Novak, which preceeds my fourth question. "Hello Greg, I've read through your email and it sounds like to me that the person who did a "rebuild" on the transmission probably messed things up. There were no pictures, as your email stated to look a the pictures a couple of times. But what it sounds like to me is that there is either no felt seal in the front of your T90, or it is ruined. The T90's do not have an actual seal in the front, so if you over-fill them, or park them on a steel down-hill slope, they will leak out the front. And like all leaks, the warmer everything is, the faster the leak will be. The only thing that slows the leak down is a properly installed felt seal that comes with our rebuild kit. Our kit is also the only kit in the world with a hardened intermediate shaft. It also includes a new 2nd gear, as ALL 2nd gears were defective from the factory. The T90 and the Dana 18 both use 80W-90 gear lube and nothing else. So don't ever run any of that synthetic stuff, as it is usually much thinner and therefore leaks out of these old gear boxes much easier. I think our master rebuild kit will take care of your problems. The kit comes with a good set of instructions as well. Let me know if you would like to get one on order. Thank you. Jer@Novak 435-753-2513 877-602-1500 X12" ________________ Question four: I'm not clear about using the sealed bearing Rick recommends. Rick implies that the felt seal is rarely reliable. Could someone, please, explain what they'd recommend to aid the felt seal in sealing or an alternative seal? Maybe it's just that the felt seal will work if it's properly installed? Question five: Daryl and others have mentioned the possible need to replace the clutch friction plate because of possible oil contamination from my transmission leak. Given the amount of transmission oil I've been loosing (at least two cups per week—more if I drive the jeep more than an hour at a time every day), is it almost a "sure thing" that I'll need to be replacing clutch parts? Thanks, Greg |
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Greg Gianas Redmond, Washington 1954 3B, daily driver; old, beat up but still strong, last vehicle I'll probably ever own, purchased May 2012; first vehicle and jeep owned: back in 1965-66 (1965 CJ-5, Hurricane 134 engine); no better memories | |
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| jyotin | Oct 2 2012, 01:02 PM Post #2 |
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Blocking the transfer of oil from the t/c and the transmission... In the t-98a application there was no transfer at all between the two, so that a blocked passage between the two could work, in theory. But there is the issue of the rear transmission bearing. Oil could migrate between the two through the rear bearing given the fact the the rear bearing was "sorta" installed in both the trans and transfer case. I suspect that if oil migrated it would tend to migrate aft more than forward which could increase the level of oil in the t/c. If you are forced to put in the plug you could monitor this problem (??) by keeping an eye on the t/c oil levels. It could take a while for there to be any appreciable change, and perhaps there wouldn't be any change at all. j |
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It's just my luck that something good is going to happen to me today. 54 - 3B - down on the farm 67 - cj6 - former state of Alabama vehicle ?? - cj5 T98a - made from spare parts - Ford tractor blue ?? - cj5 T98a - made from spare parts - Jeep green | |
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| oldtime | Oct 2 2012, 07:03 PM Post #3 |
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From what you have described, I fully expect that your transmission was assembled without a felt seal or an old unsevicable seal. I don't have experience with installing a neoprene seal in place of the felt seal. Unless you plan to park or frequently operate your T90 on a very steep grade I see no big advantage to installing such a seal. The felt seal work perfectly fine under typical conditions. The oil collector is not a big concern. It has little influence upon the loss of oil exiting the from the seal. If anything a missing oil collector will decrease the chance of gear oil loss out the front seal. Borg Warner eliminated the oil collector on T90 C's in 1962. Plugging the gear lubricant migration port can only yeild a benefit if you frequently operate the Jeep on very steep grades. There is absolutely no part inside the T90 transmission that's called an intermediate shaft. Is this guy for real or what ? Or maybe he just implies that his new 2nd speed gears are all defective. |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new | |
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| gianas | Oct 2 2012, 07:46 PM Post #4 |
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jyotin: Thank you for your reply; although I didn't completely understand it. Oldtime, what you told me is what I was guessing and hoping. What about the clutch? Is it pretty much a given that with this much oil leakage, the clutch will need to be replaced? (I know I'll know "when I'm there" looking at the clutch; I'm just trying to line up a NOS clutch so that I don't have weeks of down time on the jeep. greg |
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Greg Gianas Redmond, Washington 1954 3B, daily driver; old, beat up but still strong, last vehicle I'll probably ever own, purchased May 2012; first vehicle and jeep owned: back in 1965-66 (1965 CJ-5, Hurricane 134 engine); no better memories | |
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| oldtime | Oct 2 2012, 07:56 PM Post #5 |
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The clutch pressure plate assembly is not effected by the gear oil because it is all steel construction. The clutch driven disk is likely ruined via oil absorpion. Genuine NOS driven disks are extremely rare. You likely will have to settle for new replacement stock (NRS). It is most likely a standard 8-1/2" clutch but you really need to verify the diameter or post a pic of the clutch. |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new | |
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| gianas | Oct 2 2012, 08:14 PM Post #6 |
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OT, thanks for the clutch information. What about your view concerning whether to use a sealed or unsealed bearing? greg |
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Greg Gianas Redmond, Washington 1954 3B, daily driver; old, beat up but still strong, last vehicle I'll probably ever own, purchased May 2012; first vehicle and jeep owned: back in 1965-66 (1965 CJ-5, Hurricane 134 engine); no better memories | |
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| Tom in RI | Oct 2 2012, 08:16 PM Post #7 |
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I rebuilt my T90 with a sealed bearing. It doesn't leak a drop. You are doing the right thing by reading and researching as much as you can. Then make a choice. If I remember correctly, those who use the felt/rubber seal need to soak it in oil overnight before installation. Also a common mistake during installation of the seal is putting the rubber face in the wrong direction. On the oil collector. My T90 had been rebuilt by the Tacoma Ordnance Depot and they left the collector out. Repro collectors can be purchased - and I bought one and installed it. Be prepared to trim and reshape the collector to get it to fit properly. I did have to shave quite a bit of material off in order to prevent contact. Unfortunately, I didn't take any pictures but this might have been noted in Ricks tutorial. Many Willys second gears went a long way very reliably. Tom |
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| Ratchet | Oct 3 2012, 04:42 AM Post #8 |
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If the builder failed to install the collector they may have also forgot to pluge the two holes used to mount the collector. This could be the spot for such a big leak. Greg - place the transmisssion in nutral and pull off the top. Look inside at the front of the transmission - on the drivers side should be the collector or two holes where it should have been. This way you know. |
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Georgetown, IN A little less rust and a 53 CJ3B | |
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| gianas | Oct 3 2012, 02:00 PM Post #9 |
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Tom: Thank you for your input. Do you remember which way the seal goes? I don't have the instructions from the parts supplier yet. Maybe their instructions aren't clear, which is why the mistake is commonly made regarding the orientation of the seal. (I haven't seen the seal, so I don't know if it's felt on one side and another material on the other side of the seal.) Ratchet: Thank you for the helpful advice concerning the oil collector. Would you use a sealed or unsealed bearing for my application? (Application: 90% on the street (but frequent, steep hills) and only 10% off road ... with the jeep being my daily driver.) Greg |
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Greg Gianas Redmond, Washington 1954 3B, daily driver; old, beat up but still strong, last vehicle I'll probably ever own, purchased May 2012; first vehicle and jeep owned: back in 1965-66 (1965 CJ-5, Hurricane 134 engine); no better memories | |
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| Ratchet | Oct 3 2012, 02:40 PM Post #10 |
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All I have ever used are the unsealed bearings - with no problems. |
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Georgetown, IN A little less rust and a 53 CJ3B | |
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| gianas | Oct 3 2012, 03:49 PM Post #11 |
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Thanks, Ratchet. Anyone: What is (are), might be, the disadvantage(s) of using a sealed bearing to help prevent leaks in the transmission? It's a $60 bearing, and if it has more disadvantages than disadvantages, I shouldn't use it, but I don't have the slightest idea about its disadvantages ... except that it wasn't designed as standard part (I believe). greg |
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Greg Gianas Redmond, Washington 1954 3B, daily driver; old, beat up but still strong, last vehicle I'll probably ever own, purchased May 2012; first vehicle and jeep owned: back in 1965-66 (1965 CJ-5, Hurricane 134 engine); no better memories | |
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| oldtime | Oct 3 2012, 06:24 PM Post #12 |
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No big disadvantage to using a sealed bearing. The only concern is that the seal will eventually (maybe 100 K miles) wear a groove into the maindrive gear shaft. Since your in very steep country you might feel a little better with a neoprene sealed maindrive gear. But hey, take it apart before you get overly concerned about repairing the unidentified leaking problem. |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new | |
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| gianas | Oct 3 2012, 08:13 PM Post #13 |
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Two weeks from today, it will be out and apart. When that happens, I'll give a report. Doug, your copy of Rick Stiver's rebuild video arrived today. I'm watching it until it becomes part of my dreams at night (literally); I'm watching repeatedly it until it sinks into my non-mechanical brain. For sure, I couldn't attempt to mess with the transmission without seeing someone DO what I'll need to do. In watching the video, I've discovered that there are more than just leak problems with the transmission the previous owner rebuilt less than 200 miles ago: Since the day I got the jeep, in late May, the transmission has had trouble going into first and grinds when shifted into second and third. Stiver's video explains, but, better, SHOWS why. Hence, I'll be doing rebuilding, not just sticking in a felt seal. And, Stiver's indicates that the rubber part on the shaft seal goes "out," not in. ... I'm not saying "it's all a piece of cake"; it's not to me. Rather, Stiver's video is like a map of a trail filled with booby traps—helpful to someone who's never been down that trail. greg |
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Greg Gianas Redmond, Washington 1954 3B, daily driver; old, beat up but still strong, last vehicle I'll probably ever own, purchased May 2012; first vehicle and jeep owned: back in 1965-66 (1965 CJ-5, Hurricane 134 engine); no better memories | |
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| oldtime | Oct 11 2012, 10:06 AM Post #14 |
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In case you need it ....here's an oil collector eBay # 300714900595 |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new | |
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| gianas | Oct 11 2012, 01:14 PM Post #15 |
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Overtime, I mean Oldtime, As much as it will seem unbelievable, I don't like asking for help, and when I get help, I'm overwhelmed. Thanks for the lead on the oil collector. I ordered it. Greg |
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Greg Gianas Redmond, Washington 1954 3B, daily driver; old, beat up but still strong, last vehicle I'll probably ever own, purchased May 2012; first vehicle and jeep owned: back in 1965-66 (1965 CJ-5, Hurricane 134 engine); no better memories | |
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