Welcome to the CJ-3B Bulletin Board, the discussion forums section of the website CJ3B.info. Everyone is invited to view the postings here, but you must register as a member in order to post messages. The moderator reserves the right to remove items posted. Items may be archived in the Tech Tips section of the website. If you post a tech problem, please follow up by posting the solution when it is found, as it may be useful to other readers. For forums covering other Jeep models, see the bottom of this page.
Search for keywords or phrases anywhere in the CJ-3B Bulletin Board using Google. Enter key words here.
| You're currently viewing the forums as a guest. This means there are some features you can't use. If you register, you'll be able to post messages and use member-only features such as customizing your profile and sending personal messages. Registration is simple and free. Join the CJ-3B Bulletin Board! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| proper lubricant confusing; please advise | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 8 2012, 09:48 AM (2,246 Views) | |
| gianas | Oct 8 2012, 09:48 AM Post #1 |
|
Member
![]() ![]()
|
I've received no consistent instructions from Willys gurus, in the Seattle area, regarding the proper lubricant to put in the wheel plug that can been seen on the left in the photo below. Some very old and hard-crusted grease is inside, way at the bottom quarter inch of what's supposed to contain lubricant. No grease or oil is getting to the smooth, polished metal surface, which I believe should be lubricated, even after what I added, described below. I asked the owner of the 4WD shop about sixty miles from me (when he told me my transmission leak was an engine oil leak, without touching or smelling the oil) what type of lubricant to use. He told me to put 80-90-weight gear oil in there. I did, immediately. One manual I have says, 140-weight gear oil I believe, which Napa said they didn't have and couldn't order. As you can see , it's leaking my 80-90 gear oil—and on the other wheel that can't be seen, it's also leaking. I only filled both, as instructed to the fill point, in fact to a bit below the fill point, because I didn't have the feeling I got the right instructions. Please tell me what's right to do at this point. Thanks, Greg.
|
|
Greg Gianas Redmond, Washington 1954 3B, daily driver; old, beat up but still strong, last vehicle I'll probably ever own, purchased May 2012; first vehicle and jeep owned: back in 1965-66 (1965 CJ-5, Hurricane 134 engine); no better memories | |
![]() |
|
| Daryl | Oct 8 2012, 09:58 AM Post #2 |
|
Member
![]() ![]()
|
Probably the most ever debated topic dealing with Universal Jeeps. Just Google search "knuckle pudding" and read for a week. Straight 90 weight will not work, as you have found out. Most people make a thicker concoction by mixing grease and gear oil to resemble what was available 60 years ago as a 140 weight oil. Some specialty oil makers do have a ready made oil such as John Deere makes for agricultural gear boxes. |
|
Lotsa Jeeps, and a few extra parts In Bonney Lake, Washington Always willing to look at a Jeep for you BEFORE you buy it to check it out. | |
![]() |
|
| gianas | Oct 8 2012, 10:24 AM Post #3 |
|
Member
![]() ![]()
|
Great answer, just what I was seeking. Thanks, Daryl. What's been most surprising on having this jeep since May is how wrong some declared experts can be. I couldn't figure out why he said 80-90 gear oil after he shoved his finger down in the Knuckle hole and came out with a greasy finger. First question: Is there a way to drain out what I put in, or must I suck it out? Second question: The grease that's currently in these knuckles is so hard, it doesn't and won't lubricate what it's supposed to lubricate: there is no, zero, lubricant on the surfaces that need lubrication. I've seen properly lubricated knuckles, and I don't have properly lubricated knuckles. I don't know how this mechanism works to know if I need to take something apart to clean out the hardened grease inside, so that lubrication can begin. The 80-90 gear old the owner of the 4WD shop told me to put in there is NOT getting to the surfaces that are supposed to be lubricated, even after a couple hundred miles of driving with that too-light fluid in there. Greg |
|
Greg Gianas Redmond, Washington 1954 3B, daily driver; old, beat up but still strong, last vehicle I'll probably ever own, purchased May 2012; first vehicle and jeep owned: back in 1965-66 (1965 CJ-5, Hurricane 134 engine); no better memories | |
![]() |
|
| 8305 | Oct 8 2012, 10:47 AM Post #4 |
|
Member
![]() ![]()
|
Greg, The seals hold gear oil, if everything is new (spheres etc.) if not they will leak. I use a knuckle lube made for Land Rovers with similar setup. It comes in small tubes, easy to put in and made for axle joints. It is thicker than GO, but thinner than grease (esp. NLGI2) Called: One Shot Swivel Housing Grease, PartNo.: STC3435 |
|
'60 M38A1 1/4 ton trailer | |
![]() |
|
| oldtime | Oct 8 2012, 11:01 AM Post #5 |
![]()
MODERATOR
![]() ![]()
|
Realize that the information provided in the USM's was usually superceded to that provided in the latest publications. The latest information provided for model CJ-3B designates the use of 140 weight gear lubricant as being correct. But that is a late recomendation to cover all axle shaft joints types. This recomendation is not specific to the type of joints that are in a particular axle assembly. The Bendix and Rzeppa joints are able to use different type of lubrication than the Spicer type joints. Those axles with Bendix or Rzeppa joints can use a thicker grease in lieu of the 140 wt. oil. The Spicer type joints will mandate the use of 140 weight gear oil. Spicer type axle shaft joints were not available before 1955. Neither will all post 1955 front axles will be equipped with these Spicer joints. My point being to use a proper lubricant for your particular type of axle joints. I suggest using the NLGI grease if we assume that your Jeep axles are equipped with Bendix or Rzeppa joints. The grease will be easier to keep sealed in and should do a better job on the associated kingpin bearings. 1) Suck it out or dissassemble the hemishere. |
|
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new | |
![]() |
|
| gianas | Oct 8 2012, 03:01 PM Post #6 |
|
Member
![]() ![]()
|
8305 and OT, thank you for your input; I'll be doing what you recommended. greg |
|
Greg Gianas Redmond, Washington 1954 3B, daily driver; old, beat up but still strong, last vehicle I'll probably ever own, purchased May 2012; first vehicle and jeep owned: back in 1965-66 (1965 CJ-5, Hurricane 134 engine); no better memories | |
![]() |
|
| Rus Curtis | Oct 8 2012, 04:00 PM Post #7 |
|
Member
![]() ![]()
|
Greg,And you probably won’t! Everybody’s got their own opinion – and you know what they say about opinions! Okay, here’s my opinion. When you service your kingpin bearings you have to disassemble the knuckles. This will allow you to replace the seals (rubber and felt) on the "shiny" part as well as clean out the old grease – no need to use a degreaser, just wipe out the junk with a paper towel and move on. I agree with Ken on the knuckles. The type knuckle you have should drive the type lubricant you use. Discussion and SM study lead me to conclude that IF it is a later style cardan cross (Spicer) joint, then the (later published) SM says use 140wt. I remember seeing this in one of my local O'Reilly's (i.e. Note to Self! Remember where that is). However, if your axles have the earlier Bendix joint, then that is more like a Constant Velocity (CV) type joint and the (earlier published) SM calls for #1 or #0 grease. Standard bearing/chassis grease is #2 (too thick-will sling out to the knuckle housing and not touch the axle). You will have a problem finding #1 or #0 (it is available and others have special ordered it). However, since the older axles are a CV joint, then a modern CV joint lubricant will work. It is thicker than oil but thinner than grease. I believe some use the knuckle pudding recipe to substitute for the universal lube – the only down side is the consistency is a guess and it’s messy to mix. Some that post here have been using 140wt. for quite a while and have reported in earlier posts they have no leaks. This tells me that anything at or above the viscosity of 140wt. will not leak. This lubricant in your knuckle must also sling up and lubricate your upper king pin bearing. Another trick bearing/chassis grease cannot do (although I have packed mine just like a wheel bearing as a precaution). Since these vehicles are old and the only printed material is reprints, you cannot expect or hope "Joe-Parts" behind the counter, no matter what store he works at, to have any idea what is correct. You can ask them for advice to see what they’ll say but more often than not, you'll be telling them what is correct. Case in point, as a kid (late 70's-early 80's), shortly after acquiring my “new” Willys jeep, I went in and asked for points, condenser, cap and rotor for a '54 CJ3B. He asked what kind of engine it had. I said 134 cubic inch F-Head (I did have a copy of the SM). He repeated "134 FLAT HEAD." I responded with, “No that is the L-Head, the F-Head is the over head cam version that has the intake valves in the head.” He looked at me like I was a snot-nosed smart aleck. I thought he was going to correct me right then and there (tell me who the parts expert was) but instead, just went back to the books and found my parts. I believe those parts are all the same, but you can see how old information can be distorted and lead you down the wrong path and somewhere it will make a difference. I’ve actually corrected Walck’s a few times when I got sent the wrong part and they’ve told me that’s the right part for my jeep! I found the documentation here, and shared it with them. Now that I’ve ranted, understand even though I’ve been learning since this jeep became mine, I’ve only really learned a large chunk of these details in the last 5 years or so. I’ve owned this jeep for 35 years and yes, I was my own PO. I’ve probably directly contributed to tearing up my original Bendix knuckles and original transmission (not to mention throwing away the original springs), yada, yada, yada, the list goes on. There was no internet and no one available to ask all my stupid questions (and since I mentioned it, from work I’ve learned the only stupid question is the one you don’t ask!). Now that we have the 3B Page and its BB, sometimes you don’t even need to ask questions, just tune in and you’ll find someone else has already asked ‘cause they wanted to know also! Plus, we are able to discuss issues (with our different backgrounds) that help us to understand what we’re doing better. Also,with age, I’ve learned to tactfully correct parts suppliers with, “Well, actually the Service Manual says….” to fix any problems now.
When you service the knuckle, part of it is to inspect this surface and remove scores or scratches with emery cloth. When the new seals are in place there is a layer of felt that keeps it clean. The SM states after driving in wet/ freezing weather, swing the wheels back and forth. This allows the felt to wipe the surface clean and avoid freezing. The SM also states if you store it for a period of time then coat with light grease to avoid rusting. Pretty simple. |
|
Rus Curtis Alabama '54 CJ-3B "Green Gruntt" Bantam T3-C | |
![]() |
|
| Jax | Oct 8 2012, 06:27 PM Post #8 |
|
Member
![]() ![]()
|
You might look check out John Deere, they make a lubricant called Special-Purpose Corn Head Gun Grease - AN102562 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEwk_sYP6A8 Jax
|
|
Aloha, Kealoha Jax kealohajax@yahoo.com Waihou, Kainaliu Mauka, Hawaii Willys Trans-Vintage project 1955 CJ3B My Build: http://z4.invisionfree.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_B...?showtopic=2775 http://s767.photobucket.com/home/kealohajax | |
![]() |
|
| gianas | Oct 8 2012, 07:42 PM Post #9 |
|
Member
![]() ![]()
|
Thank you, Rus; and thanks Jax for the Cornhead video: impressive stuff. The Cornhead video makes me want to use it, if someone else can verify that it "fits" (can be used) with the type of knuckles I have, which have yet to be determined. Questions: 1. How do I figure out what brand of knuckles I have? For example, what identifying parts on the outside distinguish a Bendix or Rezeppa from a Spicer? Or, do I have to go inside the knuckle to determine it's maker? 2. Who is a reliable source for the seals—leaving out, excluding, Walcks—if I have 1954 Bendix or Rezeppa knuckles? 3. Rick Stivers and others on this forum have mentioned that they have observed mistakes in installing the felt gasket on the T-90 transmission, which I'll be attempting next week. (The rubber seal on one side of the felt gasket, on a T-90, goes "out," not "in.") When I get around to the knuckles, what are some mistakes a novice might make, or an expert who isn't paying attention, when "servicing" the knuckles and replacing the gaskets? 4. Is it a given that because 90-weight gear oil leaks in my knuckles that the seals are bad; or, could the seals still be good, and I shouldn't try to "fix" what isn't broken? Greg |
|
Greg Gianas Redmond, Washington 1954 3B, daily driver; old, beat up but still strong, last vehicle I'll probably ever own, purchased May 2012; first vehicle and jeep owned: back in 1965-66 (1965 CJ-5, Hurricane 134 engine); no better memories | |
![]() |
|
| oldtime | Oct 8 2012, 08:08 PM Post #10 |
![]()
MODERATOR
![]() ![]()
|
1) You must to look inside to determine axle shaft type. Study the figures in your USM then using a probelight / flashlight take a look inside the fill plug hole to determine the type of axle shaft joint. 4) The seals may or may not be servicable with the proper lubricant. Can you post a clear pic of the worst looking portion of the hemispere and the seal. |
|
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new | |
![]() |
|
| steve | Oct 8 2012, 08:29 PM Post #11 |
|
Member
![]() ![]()
|
Greg, when replacing the felt and seals do not over tighten the metal half rings that hold the seal and felt in place . try to tighten equally otherwise the ring will squash in at the bolt and bend the ring in and it will leak in between the bolts (torque specification for steering knuckle seal retainer bolts 15-20 foot pounds) I did like Rus and packed the top kingpin bearing with grease. Steve |
|
54 CJ3B ~ up and running ~ Tiger Top installed Suffern,NY | |
![]() |
|
| gianas | Oct 8 2012, 09:22 PM Post #12 |
|
Member
![]() ![]()
|
Steve, thanks for the warning I needed. OT, I will get you the photos you requested by tomorrow. greg |
|
Greg Gianas Redmond, Washington 1954 3B, daily driver; old, beat up but still strong, last vehicle I'll probably ever own, purchased May 2012; first vehicle and jeep owned: back in 1965-66 (1965 CJ-5, Hurricane 134 engine); no better memories | |
![]() |
|
| Daryl | Oct 8 2012, 11:51 PM Post #13 |
|
Member
![]() ![]()
|
Before tearing down the entire spherical assemblies, do some simple checks first. Kingpin bearing: This is described in the SM but simply put, with one wheel jacked up off the ground grasp the top and bottom of tire and try to wiggle back and forth. If there is excessive play in the kingpin bearing assembly, then it must be dissasembled to service. If you have no noticeable play, then I would try to suck out the 90 weight and replace with as close to 140 as you can obtain and see if the seals are still working.. Another often overlooked detail is that all of these model 25 front axels were designed to run with drive flanges and not lockout style hubs. In order to acheive proper lubrication of the upper bearing, the axle must turn in order to "fling" lube up to the bearing. With lockout style hubs installed, the axles are no longer turning when the transfer case is in 2 wd. This is why many have "packed" their upper bearing like a wheel bearing and also why it is necessary to drive regularly for a distance with your hubs locked in if you run locking hubs in order to keep the upper bearing from drying out. |
|
Lotsa Jeeps, and a few extra parts In Bonney Lake, Washington Always willing to look at a Jeep for you BEFORE you buy it to check it out. | |
![]() |
|
| oldtime | Oct 9 2012, 09:13 AM Post #14 |
![]()
MODERATOR
![]() ![]()
|
Kingpin bearing information is part of the steering check up: Read... STEERING 101 part #4 http://www.film.queensu.ca/CJ3B/Tech/Steering.html I asked for close-up of the hemisperes and seals in order to estimate their condition. The hemisperes can become striated with deep grooves from dirt particles being left upon the hemisperes. The hemispheres should be smooth without gouges or deep striated scratch lines. The hemispere wiper/seals cannot effectively seal those conditions. |
|
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new | |
![]() |
|
| Rus Curtis | Oct 9 2012, 10:18 AM Post #15 |
|
Member
![]() ![]()
|
Steve, I'm glad you mentioned this! I'd forgotten the last time I'd done this that the new replacement seals came with replacement Retainers (backing plates) and noticed they were thinner and softer than the ones I was taking off. Once the new ones were in place I noticed they immediately began to bend and distort - even before I'd gotten the rubber seal set in place! I rationalized "cheap replacement parts" and decided that since the metal Retainer did nothing to seal but was just responsible for keeping the seal and felt ring in place, I put the old ones back on. I got the rubber seal to set and they didn't distort or bend. Once again, KEEP ALL THE OLD PARTS UNTIL AFTER THE NEW PARTS ARE INSTALLED AND VERIFIED OPERATING NORMALLY. |
|
Rus Curtis Alabama '54 CJ-3B "Green Gruntt" Bantam T3-C | |
![]() |
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · CJ-3B Posts · Next Topic » |



![]](http://z4.ifrm.com/static/1/pip_r.png)




3:39 AM Jul 11