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| proper lubricant confusing; please advise | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 8 2012, 09:48 AM (2,249 Views) | |
| gianas | Oct 9 2012, 02:34 PM Post #16 |
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Daryl, much needed information. Thank you. I'll do your test, and I sure wouldn't have known what you said about locked hubs. Now I know why the orange jeep you saw at my house had lubricated joints: The previous owner of that jeep only used it in 4WD, and now I know why mine are dry: I haven't locked the hubs yet. OT, the picture below shows the condition of both knuckles, although I need to take a better-focused photo. From Daryl's explanation, I now understand why things are looking the way they are. There is a three-eighths-inch "ridge" of very old and hardened grease on one section of both knuckles, which has attracted dirt and, as mentioned, hardened. I suspected that this hardened ridge of grease should be removed, but I didn't want to start doing stuff without consulting people who know what's going on here, because I don't. Despite the fact the fact that I did what the chief mechanic and owner of the 4WD shop here told me to do (add 80-90 gear oil into the "sump" of the knuckles), none of this inappropriate oil is getting to the smooth, metal surface—probably for the reason Daryl described (I haven't locked the hubs yet). The gear oil is just leaking out from (sorry), don't yet know the name of the square-shaped-four-bolted "mechanism" below the knuckles. I assume an emory cloth should be used to clean the surfaces of the knuckles of hardened grease caked with dirt, and I should lock the hubs for a while to get some lubricant onto the smooth surfaces—of course, AFTER I suck out the 80-90-weight gear oil, replacing it with something akin to 140 oil, or what others have recommended, and after I do Daryl's test, and after I clean the surfaces. Before I say another word, I'll get the right vocabulary down.
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Greg Gianas Redmond, Washington 1954 3B, daily driver; old, beat up but still strong, last vehicle I'll probably ever own, purchased May 2012; first vehicle and jeep owned: back in 1965-66 (1965 CJ-5, Hurricane 134 engine); no better memories | |
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| Red | Oct 10 2012, 01:12 PM Post #17 |
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By tearing the assembly apart, you kill several birds with one stone: 1. you get to clean the old grease out. Don't underestimate how hardened that stuff gets 2. you'll determine the type of axle you have 3. you'll see if anything is broken, worn out etc. This is a perfect time to determine if the joints are still good I use the John Deere cornhead grease in there, as I have Bendix joints About the sphere: some grease/oil is supposed to be lost to the outside, even with good seals. Clean them with solvent first to remove all the hardened grease, then maybe go over with emory cloth to smooth ridges. That hardened grease by the way, is no doubt in the knuckle as well and on the axle joints, bearings, etc. Owner and chief mechanic of a 4WD shop, huh? Sign of the times- we must be driving antiques! |
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'54 M38A1; F-134, T90, Dana18, 5.38,12v ignition, 7.00-16 NDCCs, 11" brakes up front '53 M100 Strick #79; Signal Corps '70 DJ5 in process of build | |
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| JROD CJ53 | Oct 10 2012, 03:45 PM Post #18 |
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I just re did my entire sphere. I had to replace the kingpins and bearings. While trying to open the port on the rear of the steering ballm the cap shattered. The PO had installed zirc fittings into the caps to install grease. I had to drill all of the cap out to get it out, so had to disassemble to get the drilled parts out. Anyone know the size of that cap? I don't know if I want to do the other side or just grease it when I disassemble it to replace the king pins on the other side. While in there I replaced, well, installed seals. There was nothing left of the seals in there. I found that I could not get the "old style" thick retainers on with the felt and neoprene. My friend and I even used vice grips to try to put enough pressure on the whole area to start the bolt threading. I switched over to the cheap thin ones that came with the seals, and they seemed to fit ok without warping. Did I install something incorrectly? From inside out(toward the retainers I have the neoprene seal, lip out, felt seal then retainers) side note I have bendix shafts. Looking at using the corn head or the Range Rover lube. One recommended over the other for Bendix? |
| 1953 CJ3B/F134 rebuilt with 6000 miles/ Dana 25 front, 44 rear/ T90, Spicer18/ YF 938SD/12V conversion . Tarpon Springs FL | |
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| Red | Oct 10 2012, 05:19 PM Post #19 |
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The Land Rover lube is more than likely the equivalent stuff to cornhead grease. The most important point is to confirm the specific type of axle joint (Bendix vs Spicer, etc). I agree with the others who have pointed out that occasionally engaging the front hubs will properly circulate the knuckle grease/oil up into the upper kingpin bearing. But I'm not sure what "occasional" means
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'54 M38A1; F-134, T90, Dana18, 5.38,12v ignition, 7.00-16 NDCCs, 11" brakes up front '53 M100 Strick #79; Signal Corps '70 DJ5 in process of build | |
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| oldtime | Oct 10 2012, 07:42 PM Post #20 |
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You mean the fill plug ?
By "old style" do you mean the hemisphere wipers that are made from pot metal ? These early design hemisphere wipers are a completely different design from the ones that are currently available. |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new | |
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| gianas | Oct 11 2012, 12:25 AM Post #21 |
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Comments: Warning on the price of the Landrover grease: It's twenty dollars for a small tube. John Deere's Cornhead grease tube is $3.50 a tube. Landrover doesn't indicate and won't tell me what's in their grease. John Deere reveals what's in their product. Question: 8305 (the guy who recommended the Landrover grease): I have no doubts that what you recommend will work well, but can you, please, tell me anything more about the Landrover product regarding how and why you chose to use it? Maybe it's better than Cornhead if I have a Bendix. I don't know and would like to know more. (I realize that I need to know what kind of axle joint I have before I go further.) Question: It's not yet clear to me, when I look inside the fill plug hole with a special flashlight, how I'm going to be able to distinguish the difference between a Bendix and a Spicer axle joint. Some clues? Question: Who is a good source of parts for this mechanism (sphere, seals, ... kingpin bearings), other than Walacks? Comments: Red, thanks for your helpful advice regarding killing more than two birds with one stone. (My transmission problem will probably need to take priority over going at the knuckles.) The warning about the hardened grease was welcomed and needed. It's like enamel now, both on the sphere and inside the fill port; and, I feel fairly sure that the second owner (PO) didn't use this jeep in 4WD, which means (to me) that lubrication of the axle joints has been starved for at least 20 years. The jeep sat in a barn, unused, for more than 15 years before the PO bought it, and the PO appears to have restored next to nothing, except botching part of the transmission rebuild (which I may not be able to do much better; we'll see next week). Question: Is it likely that the lack of lubricant in this axle joint for easily 20 years would "suggest" that my kingpin bearings are probably toasted? Similar but different question: Can the kingpin bearings pass Daryl's test (wiggling the wheel for play when it's off the ground and not being loose) and still need replacing because the bearings have received no lubricant for 20 years? (Note: I'm not trying to get out of replacing the kingpin bearings; rather, I'm trying to understand, more clearly, what can ruin them, which is beyond my slim knowledge base. greg |
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Greg Gianas Redmond, Washington 1954 3B, daily driver; old, beat up but still strong, last vehicle I'll probably ever own, purchased May 2012; first vehicle and jeep owned: back in 1965-66 (1965 CJ-5, Hurricane 134 engine); no better memories | |
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| 8305 | Oct 11 2012, 02:30 AM Post #22 |
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Made for CV joints and has Moly in it. The reason why I choose it? I did not want to mix a special potion, because of separation issues. It is not the cheapest, but do not have to buy it every day. There is another type of lube available for joints, about the same viscosity and it is cheaper than the L-R product. Made by Löbro (German) or Liqui-Moly (also German) or Lubro-Moly in Canada both a CV joint manufacturer, comes with new joints in the package or available from parts stores. Comes in 70, 90 and 100 g tubes. Gear oil SAE140 will flow in between the u-joint rollers easier on the later Spicer joints than grease, but may leak more. |
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'60 M38A1 1/4 ton trailer | |
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| spm1us | Oct 11 2012, 07:44 AM Post #23 |
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Hello Greg, The kingpin bearings and cups are Timken #11520 and #11590. You should try and locate a local bearing supply house in your area. I buy the bulk of my bearings from my local bearing house and they can usually discount the items substantially over other parts retailers. They usually have the bearings readily available in stock or in one of their branches. They can also help you with a sealed T90 bearing at less than the prices quoted you previously. You can also check with a local oil and grease distributor for a Moly based product that will work in your knuckles. The oil and grease distributor may be able to cross reference the John Deere Cornhead grease or Land Rover grease as both products are sub-contracted to one of the major petroleum manufacturers like Chevron, Mobil, Shell, etc. You will also need a fish weigh scale to set the pre-load on your kingpins if and when you rebuild your knuckles. You may also need a replacement shim pack for adjustment. Save the original shims and if re-usable, use them as a starting point to get the correct amount of drag/preload on the bearings. Originally, the shims were placed on both kingpins(upper and lower) but in the newer models, the lower kingpin caps were increased in thickness to replace their shims on the order of .060. You may also need new kingpins depending upon condition and wear found on yours. There are several excellent articles with photos on this procedure on the various websites. I hope this helps, Sam Michael Jr, Jax, FL |
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| JROD CJ53 | Oct 11 2012, 09:21 AM Post #24 |
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Yes I was asking about the size, and thread count of the fill plug. Mine was destroyed in the process of removing, and I don't want the same to happen on the other side by trying to remove it to get the size. I believe that the PO either never removed them or sealed them in place. There was a zirc fitting installed into each fill plug to grease the uv joint. Thanks for the info on the cornhead vs rover grease. |
| 1953 CJ3B/F134 rebuilt with 6000 miles/ Dana 25 front, 44 rear/ T90, Spicer18/ YF 938SD/12V conversion . Tarpon Springs FL | |
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| oldtime | Oct 11 2012, 09:34 AM Post #25 |
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The fill plug is a 1/2" National Pipe Thread (NPT). |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new | |
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| Red | Oct 12 2012, 12:12 AM Post #26 |
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Regarding the hardened grease in and around the knuckle: My A1 has essentially the same running gear as the 3B. The knuckles on mine had not been maintained very well and it was essential to get in there and properly clean them. It was a lengthy job. I used kerosene to do most of the cleaning and then brake cleaner to really get the axle shafts spotless. Turns out the Bendix joints were in good shape. If you have the bendix joints, check them by pushing the axle ends together and then twisting them to see how much free play they have. It's something of a guess how much free play is ok, but it can't be very much. Also, hold the axle by one end and see if the whole assembly falls apart- if it does, the military maunal says to replace it. If it holds together, it should have service left in it. The kingpin bearings on my jeep were shot on one side, but I replaced all 4 while I was at it. It may sound odd, but for me, working on that front end and steering is somehow the most satisfying part of wrenching on the jeep. Maybe it's because it adds so much to the enjoyment of driving the jeep and because it seems to be universally one of the most neglected areas of the jeep (ie, no one knows how the thing works or how to fix it). About the cornhead vs land rover grease: rovers aren't known for being owned by po' folk so rover owners can probably afford high priced lubes. Farmers on the other hand, probably understand value as well as anybody and their machines are often times non-stop, extrememly hard working items. Any lube able to stand up to their demands has been thoroughly engineered and tested. The fact that it costs a fraction as much should only weigh further in its favor. Another note on the cornhead grease- in warm weather it does seep a very small amount out around the seals. But I see that as a good thing. As well, the cornhead grease is a polyurea base- unlike the lithium or sodiuim based grease. But it's compatible with most anything. John Deere also sells the same grease in #2 chassis lube (same stuff, just with more thickeners) Little of the above means much if you have the Spicer axles. Plan on going to the 4x4 swap meet in Puyallup in March; the other Northwest guys can help get you lined out on that. March before last, I picked up some great Spicer axle shafts/joints for cheap from the R&P guys there. The axles are 10 spline, which are not used by the mudder types, so they can be picked up very reasonably. They are my spares. |
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'54 M38A1; F-134, T90, Dana18, 5.38,12v ignition, 7.00-16 NDCCs, 11" brakes up front '53 M100 Strick #79; Signal Corps '70 DJ5 in process of build | |
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| Don | Oct 12 2012, 07:14 AM Post #27 |
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That cornhead grease sounds interesting. It's been mentioned here before. I found this commerical on You Tube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEwk_sYP6A8 It mentions using it in the CV joints of front wheels drives. |
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Don Norris Southeast, NC 1953 CJ3B 1959 Jeep Pickup 195? M100 trailer ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The trail never ends ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If lovin' Jeeps is wrong, I don't wanta be right. | |
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| Rus Curtis | Oct 13 2012, 08:40 AM Post #28 |
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My scanner was acting up, I wanted to post this earlier.
Oldtime, This image is from my PM. Is this the old style you’re referring to? The SM image (also posted) shows the currently available split style seal that I found on my jeep. I did note that the PM image shows shims on both upper and lower kingpins whereas the SM image shows the later upper kingpin shims only. ![]()
JROD, There’s so many things that could be done by a PO that you wouldn’t know about. For me, I always assumed if I took it off, then its original and should work when I put it back together. I’m getting better at cross-checking things, especially the hardware. My Parts Manual (PM) shows those bolts as 5/16” – 24 x 11/16” BUT they are on the diagram with the old style seals. Would they work with the new style (split style)? Perhaps a 5/8” would work, perhaps longer. I would feel very uneasy if I needed to clamp or squeeze anything to reassemble it, unless the procedure specifically calls for it. The thicker retainer shouldn't matter that much. You indicated you didn’t have much to observe or study when you disassembled. I’ve also included the split style installation procedure to indicate there is a way to install the seal backwards. Hopefully, you got the seal in with the metal backing towards the wheel. ![]() ![]() If you're not sure, it would be worth it to take the metal retainers off and verify since the knuckles don't need to be torn down. On the best lube for Bendix, it seems that any CV lube should work just fine. It may boil down to what works best for your wallet. My original Bendix joints had grease in them since who knows how long before I got it. They fell apart. Grease didn’t seem to work. If I'd known what I was doing back then, I'd have used a CV lube of some type. |
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Rus Curtis Alabama '54 CJ-3B "Green Gruntt" Bantam T3-C | |
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| oldtime | Oct 13 2012, 09:26 AM Post #29 |
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Yes Rus, That pic clearly shows the early type of front axle hemispere seal that was still being used when CJ-3B went into production. The early type hemispere seal components are not combatable with the later seal components. The early type consists of parts: #18 knuckle gasket #27 rubber hemispere wiper #28 the seal half housings #XX a special internal wiper spring which is not shown (This long wavy spring fits into the seal half housings and applies outward pressure onto the rubber hemisphere wipers) Excellent observation. The early kingpin caps have identicle part numbers while the later kingping cap numbers are different from top to bottom. |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new | |
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| oldtime | Oct 14 2012, 03:11 PM Post #30 |
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Here's some of the early type seals that Matt Fox has... Ebay # 300786020007 |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new | |
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