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| head gasket for F134; who makes the most reliable one? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 8 2013, 01:29 AM (2,102 Views) | |
| gianas | Jan 8 2013, 01:29 AM Post #1 |
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Looks like I might have radiator water in my oil, at least that's what I've been told. Who makes the best head gasket? (I want to have one on hand in case that might need to be replaced, to prevent down time.) Are there any other causes of the following? Symptoms: (a) White foam and white froth on oil dip stick, from bottom to top when engine is both cold and hot; and (B) water in radiator suddenly (within a couple days) went from normal green color (of the coolant) to an abnormal brown color, but haven't lost any radiator fluid, or so it appears. (The jeep is my daily driver; I check the fluids every other day to make sure I don't have something strange going on. That's how I discovered what's described. A machinist who builds racing engines says I've probably got water getting into the pistons and I'll ruin the bearings if the problem isn't addressed ASAP. Another mechanic says it's just harmless condensation. Clearly, I don't know, but I do know that something's changed and probably not for the better.) Oil pressure and oil level on dip stick, don't appear to have changed. So, it beats me what's going on. People (mechanics) here, who are sure they know what's going on, don't agree on anything connected to this 1954 3B. Everyone has a different diagnosis. The engine was rebuilt eight to ten years ago by an unknown person. The jeep was only driven a few times a year for six years before I got it last May. Most of the seals and diaphrams, nearly everywhere (from the carb to the fuel pump to the transmission, were either not installed at all, not installed correctly, or have gone bad, as might be expected. That's why (even though I know zilch about auto mechanics), I'm guessing a gasket has gone south somewhere. Yet, I see no leaks anywhere on the engine's surfaces, except on the usual undercarriage areas. Helpful input needed. greg |
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Greg Gianas Redmond, Washington 1954 3B, daily driver; old, beat up but still strong, last vehicle I'll probably ever own, purchased May 2012; first vehicle and jeep owned: back in 1965-66 (1965 CJ-5, Hurricane 134 engine); no better memories | |
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| jking | Jan 8 2013, 01:15 PM Post #2 |
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Greg, Apparently, OT is on vacation. Since no one has responded yet, here's a couple of things to check for as signs of head gasket failure - white smoke out the exhaust, overheating. How's the jeep running, any loss of power? Pull the plugs, any sign of coolant - does the center porcelain portion look bright white intead of a normal slightly off color? Compression test the cylinders and pressure test the cooling system to see if they are where they are supposed to be. Good luck, hopefully it is something simple and not the gasket. |
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1958 CJ3B F134 engine\Dana 25 with Spicer type axles\Dana 44 rear\T90 trans\Dana 18 transfer case. Northest Ohio | |
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| Rus Curtis | Jan 8 2013, 04:03 PM Post #3 |
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Greg, I too am surprised it took this long for a response. No doubt we're all a bit busy at times! I read your post this morning and got real busy, so now I've got time to sit and think. I am NOT surprised you're getting different opinions from different mechanics. You know what they say about opinions! It is possible that your head gasket failed. Initially, I'd approach this as different issues until I know more. The condensation build up in your Oil Filler Tube could be due to PCV system being plugged or not routed correctly. Moisture is going to build inside an engine and it has to go somewhere. The coolant turning brown all of a sudden is concerning. It is possible that rust and sludge can build but I'd think it would be difficult if you changed it regularly. Did you add a heater or change anything recently? In my experience if the head gasket fails, there's only 2 fluids that could leak: Oil and coolant. If oil leaks into the cylinder, then you could get blue smoke. If oil leaks into the water jacket it could turn brown but since oil is lighter than water I would assume after sloshing around the oil would separate and float to where you could see droplets or a sheen/layer depending on how much oil got out. If water leaks into the cylinder, then you could see white smoke. If water leaks into the oil passages, depending on the temperature of the engine, you could have excessive moisture buildup that might collect as foam but I would think you'd see water droplets on the dipstick too. When the engine is cool, you could empty a bit from the drain plug into a glass container so you could see but check for heavier water at the bottom in a layer. Either way, one fluid level has to go down and the other increase - unless being burned off in the cylinder. The only other possibility I can think of is pressure blowing out of the cylinder into either oil and/or water. This could also cause contamination. I seem to recall discussion about gasket quality a while back but believe most gaskets will do okay if installed correctly. Remember to retorque the head bolts after warm up. I think Felpro is a well known brand. |
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Rus Curtis Alabama '54 CJ-3B "Green Gruntt" Bantam T3-C | |
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| oldtime | Jan 8 2013, 08:03 PM Post #4 |
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Due to other priorities I must cut my computer time in half. I'll normally only be responding once daily as time permits. Thanks for your patience in this matter.....
Water also enters the crankcase via the oil bath air filter. Check the Donadlson oil bath filter bowl first.
Good question... probly Felpro brand.
It's certainly possible that the head gasket has blown causing the problems that you notice. A leaking head gasket may or may not be visable externally. It's possible that you have exhaust gas turning the coolant brown. The coolant discoloration could also be from suddely dislodged sludge inside the block. The foamy oil needs to be cleaned out. If foam returns then you may need to remove the head. But before that you should do a standard vaccum test on all cylinders because that can diagnose a leaking head gasket. Do you have a mechanics vacuum gauge ? |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new | |
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| jeeper50 | Jan 9 2013, 05:40 AM Post #5 |
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ol' skool jeeper jeff
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I use the Felpro gaskets also, thanks jking and rus for "standing in the gap" and getting the post rolling. Thats what makes this site the best for info. |
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In the land of the blind... the one eyed man is king Texan at heart, Georgian by paycheck '53 CJ3B, F134, 12v alternator, lockrights, Hot-Spark electronic module,11"self energizing brakes, Belleview winch, Beachwood summertop, OD color, built to honor all Veterans of this great country Kayaks- Hobie Revo 13, Hobie Outback 12' both ready for the salt... | |
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| gianas | Jan 9 2013, 07:14 AM Post #6 |
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The replies have been helpful, as usual. I'm checking into all that's been said and will report back. Thank you for all input. This is what I've learned since May, when I bought the jeep from a collector who concealed lots of truths it would have helped to know. I won't be politically correct. Other than on the forum, I've been constantly told that this is a simple vehicle (stock 54 3B) that any idiot can work on. I think most men, especially in the pseudo-macho category (mechanics here in Redmond, Washington in particular), are afraid of the truth and want to look big and smart by acting as if working on a Willys jeep is a "piece of cake." My experience has been that there are quirks of Willys jeeps that today's mechanics think they fathom but don't by a long shot. For example, the problem I had from the beginning (stuttering and sputterig up a hill) was caused by a host of problems, not one: dirt and gum in the gas tank, new fuel pump that hadn't been used in years (leaking diaphram), bent and incorrectly attached carb linkage beginning near the gas pedal and every other part of the linkage to the carb, wrong linkage spring midway up the engine block, bent throttle shaft, need for carb rebuild, bad condenser, wrong plugs, and loose distributor rod (wrong names, I know). "Piece of cake so easy an idiot can figure it out?" No, not quite. Not one thing was wrong. Nearly everything was wrong. Somehow, I don't think what's going on now will be a whole lot different, either. Turned on the heater for the first time last week; think that affected the color of the radiator's fluid, which has NOW settled and returned to the proper green color. Think the mechanism for shoving crap beck into the carb and engine is plugged. Will be draining the radiator and block and doing all the recommended checks suggested, including draining the fresh oil. I've always viewed a good mechanic in the same league as a good doctor, few of which I've ever met (and I've met dozens and dozens). Working on an engine for me feels like asking a fat man to fly without wings. Working on machines and higher math are what intimidate me most in life; so this isn't easy for me; didn't grow up working on engines, manual labor, yes, plenty of that; mechanical knowledge: zip, zero, zilch; but thanks to some patience and sage advice from you all, I'm making sick turtle progress. Oldtime wrote something a long time ago (a long time ago to me, six months ago) about knowing what's going in every part of his jeep. I've concluded that's the only way to keep a previously neglected Willys running as a daily driver ... but this is what it feels like: an uncoordinated pig on oiled ice, an overweight cow in a swimming pool with no steps. Associate lack of competence with dismemberment and death, so your tutorials save my spirit's rear end. In answer to the question about do I have a compression gauge. I bought one six months ago after asking the salesman what was involved. He said the most I needed to do was stick in the cylinder without the spark plug and turn over the engine; that was all. I read the directions. No, that's not all. All this is like walking to the bathroom for you guys; it's like going to the moon for me. Picture teaching a university class in a subject you know nothing about and you'll get the picture: stretched. Thanks again for any information you have; it's greatly needed. greg |
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Greg Gianas Redmond, Washington 1954 3B, daily driver; old, beat up but still strong, last vehicle I'll probably ever own, purchased May 2012; first vehicle and jeep owned: back in 1965-66 (1965 CJ-5, Hurricane 134 engine); no better memories | |
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| Galen | Jan 9 2013, 08:42 AM Post #7 |
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Hi Greg, I love your writing; makes me laugh and take notice. Four years ago i embarked on a frame off restoration of my 3B. It was slow and painful but I got through it. Now I am tearing down a 1941 Dodge 1/2 ton 4x4 and this job may only take 3 years. I have learned a lot that i am able to carry over to the Dodge like what to ask the machinist to be done with my engine, when to order parts, how to setup bearings etc. A lot of this I learned along the way including the constant bombardment with questions to you folks on this forum. I am especially grateful for the advice from Old Time and other who probably have heard the same questions over and over. I don't think we ever really finish a project like these old Jeeps- just keep improving on the work we did in the past. I hope like me you just keep plugging along learning valuable tips along the way and pass them on to the newbies since we were all newbies at one time. |
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1954 CJ3B -Transport Yellow- 1953 B4 Dodge Power Wagon 1941 Dodge WC 1/2 ton military 1967 Plymouth Valiant Culpeper, VA | |
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| Rus Curtis | Jan 9 2013, 10:20 AM Post #8 |
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Greg, Your observations are accurate. Your simile's are hilarious! These jeeps are "simple" but.... (and it's a BIG but!!) You can learn to fix them without the need of a computer, an advanced degree or a shop full of special tools. Old vehicles were built around the concept of constant, routine maintenance. Ignore that maintenance or perform it incorrectly then you create mountains. Add to this concept an additional 50+ years with poor maintenance, those mountains turn into mountain ranges. Modern vehicles are rolling computers made from special alloys. They run for 10K+ miles virtually maintenance free but cost a lot when they need fixing. We also suffer from cheap crappy parts so have to be careful when replacing them. Excellent troubleshooting on your heater/coolant problem! Remember when flushing to have the heater on to include its plumbing when flushing. My technique is to turn it from a closed system to an open system until complete. Drain first then flush. I use only distilled water as this is better than tap water. Enjoy the journey!! |
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Rus Curtis Alabama '54 CJ-3B "Green Gruntt" Bantam T3-C | |
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| gianas | Jan 10 2013, 10:11 PM Post #9 |
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Preliminary responses and further questions: Jking: No white smoke; no overheating; no distinguished loss of power. Need, yet, to check plugs (color of the white), compression test cyl., pressure test radiator. Rus: PCV only half apart; no blue smoke, no water on dip stick (except for the white froth). Dropping all the oil out later tonight to check for water in the oil. Oldtime: I checked the Donaldson oil bath; at least three-quarters of the lowest "sump" was full of water. The rest on the top was clean oil; or, I should say it "looked" clean. Question: Can this much water "normally" collect in the "sump" at the bottom of the oil bath from condensation in zero-degree weather, in a place with 100% humidity, with the jeep parked inside after driving only ten to 25 miles a day, with either five- to ten-mile legs of the journey, with the engine really not getting to full operating temperature ... and have the water at the bottom of the oil bath NOT being coming from a blown head gasket? Galen: Your compliment was appreciated; yanks me out of all-too-common depression; thank you. Rus: Flushing the radiator is new to me; didn't quite understand what you said, although it was clearly written. Your tip on the heater, getting it going before flushing, really helped me. I couldn't believe how dirty (full of rust) the water was; it looked like a river in Viet Nam: brown, old, and poisoned. Thanks for all the support from all; I needed it. Still have a report to give regarding pressure in the cylinders and the radiator, and whether there's water in the fully drained oil from the engine. No water in the oil; or, I should say, I saw no water in the oil. Greg |
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Greg Gianas Redmond, Washington 1954 3B, daily driver; old, beat up but still strong, last vehicle I'll probably ever own, purchased May 2012; first vehicle and jeep owned: back in 1965-66 (1965 CJ-5, Hurricane 134 engine); no better memories | |
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| oldtime | Jan 11 2013, 10:41 AM Post #10 |
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That is the most likely cause of the oil froth that you noticed on the dip stick. That condition alone does not indicate a serious problem with the engine. The main question remains why is so much water is in the Donaldson bowl ? By order of common occurrance: 1) Engine partly submerge to bottom of the oil fill tube. 2) Creek splashing allows water to enter the Donaldson bowl. 3) Vehicle exposed to heavy rain without the proper gutter trough. (located under the hood hinge) 4) Combination of very high humidity with abrupt temperature swings can cause water to condense in the Donaldson. 5) Remotely possible combination of inoperative PVC system and leaking head gasket. |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new | |
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| gianas | Jan 11 2013, 11:17 AM Post #11 |
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Thanks, Oldtime, for the information about how the oil bath can obtain water. No creek crossings, yet. Lots of rain on the streets, for months. Have hood trough in tact. Severe temperature changes combined with heavy rain and not getting engine to full operating temperature and pcv possibly being plugged looks like a probable culprit ... until I do a compression check. What isn't clear to me, from the manual or otherwise, is how to clean the pcv. I'm not an experimenter, yet, on this jeep and have found no instructions anywhere, yet. Greg |
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Greg Gianas Redmond, Washington 1954 3B, daily driver; old, beat up but still strong, last vehicle I'll probably ever own, purchased May 2012; first vehicle and jeep owned: back in 1965-66 (1965 CJ-5, Hurricane 134 engine); no better memories | |
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| oldtime | Jan 11 2013, 11:25 AM Post #12 |
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Agreed ! Will gladly provide more information as my time allows..... |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new | |
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| Rus Curtis | Jan 11 2013, 09:19 PM Post #13 |
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Greg, I'm sorry, I did a bad thing! I injected a procedure different from your post title and this adds to the crossfire on information when we start posting responses. Sorry! Okay, I'll try to hit the important steps and keep it short so as not to side track too far. The heater is a radiator inside the car and has coolant and must be flushed. To include in the flushing process, move the temperature adjustment from blue to red temp (modern vehicles) but for us, just turn the shut off valve on top of the head all the way open to allow coolant to flow. Open all drain cocks and catch fluid. Close and refill with distilled water. Since the entire vehicle is the negative cable, electricity flows through everything - including the radiator. If tap water is used, minerals in solution will stick to the walls of the engine and radiator due to electrolysis and will eventually clog something requiring a visit to a radiator shop, the parts store to replace something or other repairs due to overheating. Distilled water doesn't have minerals and is much better for this purpose (I usually get 4 gals to flush and fill). Crank vehicle with topped off distilled water in radiator - no cap as you will want to watch and add water. Wait until thermostat opens. Top hose will get hot and fluid level will drop in radiator. Top off again - don't let radiator get low. Run this through the engine (increase from idle to "cruise" for a while to ensure a good circulation - just don't wide open race the engine! Target about 1500-2000 rpms for a slow 10 count a couple of times while doing this). Stop engine. Drain again. MY TECHNIQUE: I disconnect the top hose from the radiator and run PVC pipe (I use a 90* elbow to route it straight down -avoiding moving parts and eliminate any hot fluid splashing!) to a collection bucket below. I run the engine and continuously top off the radiator until the water coming out of the top hose runs clear. This is an open system and flushes all old fluid and loose stuff out. When clear, turn off engine, open drain cocks and drain again (you could wait until it cools a bit but I'm impatient). WARNING: Coolant is HOT and will scald! Keep your soft body parts away from liquid! Touch hose cautiously to test temp when checking thermostat. After flushed, close drains, attach hoses and ensure all connections are secure. Fill first with antifreeze to get 50/50 (half of 12 qts is 6 qts=1.5 gals). It may not all go in at first since engine isn't running. Crank engine and let circulate when the pump sucks coolant into engine add remaining balance of the 6 qts of antifreeze. When that is in, you'll need to top off with more distilled water. It probably won't be exactly 1.5 gals (the other 6 qts) as some may still be in the engine/heater. Therefore knowing the correct amount of antifreeze is in, just top off with more water and you're done. When complete, verify thermostat is opening and coolant flows. Put on cap and let it run and check for leaks (including heater). Leave heater open or close it off if you don't want heat inside jeep. Allow heater coolant to circulate once in a while to avoid the dirty creek water look. You can then use the left over distilled water to add to the remaining half gal antifreeze to make a 50/50 mix for any top offs later on. Transfer old antifreeze to empty water/antifreeze containers and recycle! Hope this helps. |
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Rus Curtis Alabama '54 CJ-3B "Green Gruntt" Bantam T3-C | |
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| gianas | Jan 13 2013, 12:27 AM Post #14 |
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Rus, again, what you wrote was clearly written, but I have these questions, because I believe I need to reflush everything again and start over after the "event" that happened tonight, described in the "radiator down" post. These are my questions: 1. You say to "turn the shut-off valve on top of the head to open." I'm not aware of a shut-off valve on top of the head. Sorry that I don't know about such a value or where it's located, but I don't. I don't see one. 2. This is what I did before I read your post, which hadn't been written before I drained and flushed the radiator, without running the engine and without knowing about opening any shut-off valve on the head. Then I closed the drain cocks and filled the radiator with distilled water and then opened the drain cocks and let that water drain out (without starting the engine). Then I filled the radiator with the proper mixture of antifreeze and distilled water. That was yesterday. Tonight, I drove the jeep down the hill to get gas, and the temperature rose, maxing out the temperature gauge, which has never happened before. I've never had a radiator problem until I flushed it. I towed the jeep back home. Question: Did my first method of flushing accomplish anything? Did my method of flushing possibly harm something? This method did not involve having the radiator cap open or running the engine or even knowing about opening any shut-off valve on the head. 3. "Your technique," as you define it. I'm going to tell you what I understood you telling me to do, but without the PVC pipe arrangement. As I understand it, your technique involves using the engine to both circulate the water AND push the water out of the radiator into a container, with the drain cocks open? That's how I read what you wrote. You use a PVC pipe after disconnecting the top radiator hose. Question: Is it possible to use only the drain cocks in the engine and radiator to dump out all the water, as I'm feeding the radiator with water, with the engine running and the radiator cap off ... until what comes out is clear—but shutting off the engine before it gets too hot? (I still don't know anything about opening the shut-off valve on the head.) 3. Here's where I am right now after tonight's incident with overheating and the thermostat not going on while driving down the hill. I have coolant (fifty-fifty antifreeze and distilled water) in the radiator that appears to be plugged somewhere. Can I do two flush jobs? First, take off the radiator cap, open the drain cocks on the radiator and engine block, start the engine and let the engine push the fluid out the drain cocks, while the heater is going? ... I didn't "open the shut-off valve on the top of the head," because you hadn't written that post yet and I didn't know such a valve existed. I still don't know what "shut-off valve on top of the head" you're talking about. 4. Okay, so for discussion's sake, all the coolant is now out of the radiator; I've turned off the engine before all the coolant is gone to avoid getting the engine too hot. Now, I take distilled water, while the heater's still on, start the engine again, and pour distilled water into the radiator, while the drain cocks are still open; and wait until it's clear; then turn off the engine (which I've run according to your instructions) before all the water's out. Close the drain cocks on the radiator and engine block and then fill the radiator with the proper mixture of antifreeze and distilled water? Will that work? Is that acceptable. Is that a workable version of your technique? This method isn't as "clean" as you method, but is this a correct method? Is this, essentially, what you were telling me, minus opening the shut-off valve on top of the head, which I haven't located, yet? I apologize for not completely understanding all that you said, but what can I say: I don't know what I don't know. thanks, greg |
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Greg Gianas Redmond, Washington 1954 3B, daily driver; old, beat up but still strong, last vehicle I'll probably ever own, purchased May 2012; first vehicle and jeep owned: back in 1965-66 (1965 CJ-5, Hurricane 134 engine); no better memories | |
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| Rus Curtis | Jan 13 2013, 01:49 AM Post #15 |
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Greg, This is definitely and adventure! I did notice your Radiator Down post and responded. Perhaps all this belongs over there as it fits the topic very well. However, I'm worried about criss crossing and everyone getting confused so I'll leave that up to our capable Moderators to adjust postings if it would make more sense. I do see specific questions here so I’ll attempt to answer without muddying the water more (pun intended). I feel your pain on trying to get things done, not trusting the local help and having to wait on a response from the other side of the continent. I too have been on a schedule that sometimes couldn’t wait on a response I was hoping to get. It happens. After all that’s happened, I would agree with you and start from scratch on the flush. You may still have old rusty coolant mixed in and you want to flush that out. 1. The heater has 2 hoses. One is attached to the water pump on the right (passenger) side through a pipe fitting and a hose clamp. The other hose goes to the top back right side of the cylinder head. There should be a 90* fitting that kinda looks like a faucet (This is the Shut Off Valve as it shuts off the water). It should have a thumb screw handle on the top that could be turned (clockwise to close and counter clockwise to open) to either stop or allow water to enter the heater. If the stem of this thumbscrew shut off is sticking up about 1” then its open (see image below). Here’s what one looks like: Heater shutoff valveHere’s the top thumbscrew just visible under the sparkplug wires when its in position: Lawrence doesn’t have a heater on his original ’55 so he has this hole plugged off. Here is an image of the hole with a pipe plug in it: Does this help? 2. To flush a coolant system you either need to hook it to a machine or use the engine but the liquid needs to be “flushed” out. You really just drained and then drained again – you didn’t harm anything but you just mixed the old and the new. You started correctly by opening the drain cocks (radiator and engine) to get as much of the old liquid out as possible. Then you need to flush the rest out. This is where I close the drain cocks and fill the radiator and run the engine and flush. This time, ensure the heater hose circuit is opened up to allow water to flow through the heater and flush with the radiator cap off so you can monitor the fluid level in the radiator and keep it topped off. 3. You seem to grasp most of this. I wouldn’t run the engine with the drain cocks open. They are designed to drain – not flush the engine/radiator. A commercial shop will hook a machine up to your vehicle and pull all the old liquid out while pushing new in. My method uses the vehicles’ water pump. The PVC pipe is something I thought up when doing my Cherokee. It was bad about spraying into the fan and making a big mess. This PVC pipe is slid into the hose after I disconnect it from the top of the radiator. It provides safe routing of scalding hot water down into a catch pan. That’s all it does. Back in the day (‘70s-80s) I would just point my top radiator hose off to the side and let it just dump on the ground. We now know that is a bad thing to do. My PVC adaptor allows me to control the discharge without making a mess. 4. My technique is to close the drain cocks and detach the top hose from the radiator (still connected to the engine at the thermostat housing). This allows the coolant to follow its normal path but instead of going back into the radiator and circulating back with all the other coolant, it gets caught in a pan. After draining and closing the drain cocks, I pour distilled water in the radiator first to fill it up (so the engine has something to draw into it when it starts up. Then while the engine is running, I keep topping off the radiator with water until the top hose runs clear (it’ll be foamy cause its hot! I’m just looking for no more green). You may initially see a drop right after starting the engine as it sucks water into the engine. The next drop will be when the thermostat opens. It kind of reminds you of opening a sink faucet; slow at first then more volume. So, 2 eyes: one on the discharge to watch the color change and one on the water level in the radiator – just keep the fins covered. Too much water and it will run out of the top hose fitting. When it runs clear. Turn off engine, open drain cocks and drain. When empty, close and fill with antifreeze then top off with water until full at temperature (about 2 inches from filler neck). Note: This is my technique to open flush. You can flush with the hose still connected to the radiator but you’ll have to run it. Shut the engine off, drain, fill, run, etc and repeat a few times. I also don’t like putting old coolant back in my engine so once it comes out, it gets recycled. I stopped using tap water many years ago (but will pee in the radiator if it means getting me home out of the woods!!). I hope this makes more sense. Let me know if you have any more questions. |
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Rus Curtis Alabama '54 CJ-3B "Green Gruntt" Bantam T3-C | |
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Heater shutoff valve
3:45 AM Jul 11