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| Traction,,,,; Lets talk about it ,,, | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 29 2013, 12:41 AM (1,190 Views) | |
| HOGHEAD | Aug 29 2013, 12:41 AM Post #1 |
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Old Jeep Fart
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I was looking on facebook tonight & found this video on there ,,, You might have to cut and paste it.... https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=597250650310918
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Dargan Md... Death Before 2 Wheel Drive... "On a Steel Horse I ride" AMC Rules. "Journey" not the Destination... 59 Cj3-b (married to a 74 Cj-5 frame & AMC running gear) Willys Overland,, My Build http://z4.invisionfree.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_B...?showtopic=2892 | |
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| RMinPA | Aug 29 2013, 07:34 AM Post #2 |
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Defied gravity with Torque, Traction and very precise Control. It's been my experience that leaf springs handle more weight but coils give you the articulation to keep your tires on the ground, or - in this case - on the cliff. Significant that the buggy shows no dents. VERY capable Driver. If you watch the pre-'97 Jeeps off-road it is amazing how frequently one or even two tires are grabbing only air. My first off-roading was done in a fairly tame 2000 TJ and it traversed obstacles that left even locked and jacked earlier models spinning. But the vintage Jeeps have a better weight/traction ratio. A guy named Dave ran an MB on trails with a group of Jeeps earlier this month and I heard he held his own. My JKU weighs in at 5,400#. There's also the propensity to roll-over during fast turns that has been diminished with the coils. Let's be careful out there. |
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Rich Meyer 1962 CJ-3B Ser#57348 88612. Restoration finished 9/6/2013 to stock with factory optional wheels/tires and heater. Engine#807895 2007 JKU Rubicon on 37's, 4 1/2" Lift, 5.13s, etc. Now in Rockford IL | |
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| RamblinCJ3B | Aug 29 2013, 12:54 PM Post #3 |
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The wheel base played a big part also. |
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Eddie Clovis,Ca 1956 Willys PU 1962 USN CJ3B Stock 1971 Hurst Jeepster 350 1972 Commando 4.0 HO 1972 Commando I6 258 1975 J20 401 | |
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| jyotin | Aug 30 2013, 05:24 PM Post #4 |
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wow.... |
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It's just my luck that something good is going to happen to me today. 54 - 3B - down on the farm 67 - cj6 - former state of Alabama vehicle ?? - cj5 T98a - made from spare parts - Ford tractor blue ?? - cj5 T98a - made from spare parts - Jeep green | |
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| HOGHEAD | Aug 30 2013, 08:47 PM Post #5 |
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Old Jeep Fart
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I really like to watch this kinda off roading butt its not practical,,.. I'm sure we could do things it couldn't do,,, like running down the road & make a turn without flexing to the point of up siting ... Tell you when your doing an obstacle course with a V8 in a CJ5 dodging trees at 65 mph its pucker time for sure,,, These guys don't know whats fun,,, :rolleyes:
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Dargan Md... Death Before 2 Wheel Drive... "On a Steel Horse I ride" AMC Rules. "Journey" not the Destination... 59 Cj3-b (married to a 74 Cj-5 frame & AMC running gear) Willys Overland,, My Build http://z4.invisionfree.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_B...?showtopic=2892 | |
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| oldtime | Aug 31 2013, 04:11 PM Post #6 |
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Great topic Hoghead, I'll give it a try ..... TRACTION ! I define traction as the cohesive friction of a body over the surface on which it moves. Note here that I use the word cohesion inferring a bond between two parts. I do not use the term adhesion meaning that an extra component is used to promote the bond. So with that stated let's first take a quick look at the surface or the terrain. There are many types of surfaces on which a jeep can travel. Among the widely variable surfaces consider that solid sharp edged granite will provide the absolute best traction. And upon that granite surface a soft compounded rubber will yield the best traction. The tire actually has no need for any tread design if used on granite. The concept here is virtually identicle to bleaching down a set of racing slicks at the local drag strip. The bleaching serves to soften the rubber compound for maximum traction. With ultra low geared crawling type jeeps as seen in the video we define the useage of traction as it's climbing ability. More properly its termed as the gradability. So lets take a quick look at the theoretical maximum possible gradability. A simple experiment will suffice to realize the truth. Place a large flat rubber eraser onto a piece of course grit, flat and stiffened sandpaper. Tilt the sandpaper up very slowly until the rubber eraser slides off. Now check the angle of the sand paper. You will find it to be virtually right at 45* angle from horizontal. This same 45* angle is also defined as a 100% grade. So maximum achievable gradability is always a 45* slope or 100% gradability. Achieving 100% gradability is the ultimate goal for crawling jeeps. Pics and videos can be very deceiving but realize that the rig as seen in the video cannot possibly be driving over anything beyond 45* slope. That implies the overall slope from front tire to rear tire yet does not include any steeper slope irregularities. So in effect I have diverged away from the topic of traction and mentioned gradability in it's place. In my mind this video is more about maximum gradability and it's less obvious about traction. So back to traction. Oh yeah, I should add that those racing slicks I mentioned will provide very poor traction when the traveled surface is deep mud. Thanks and have a fun weekend ! |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new | |
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| williams3b54 | Sep 3 2013, 10:00 PM Post #7 |
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Williams3B54
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Hey guys, lets talk about sand and snow and traction. I have tried to jeep in sand with my F-Head Cj-3B and it doesn't like it. Why because not enough HP, it will not spin the tires and floatation is a must in sand. Let the air out of the tires and now you need a lot of HP. Let's talk about snow, HP is not what you want in snow, unless you have a lot of tires that are a big foot print on the stuff. Not spinning the tires and low air pressure is the key to driving on snow. Our 54 CJ-3b does real well on snow. 134 cuin engine and 10 psi in the tires that are 12.5 " wide. Let's talk about ice, I don't think there is any thing that a CJ-3B would like about ice. The wheel base is too short, the track is too narrow, and the vehicle is too light. You can put studs on them and be able to get around to some extent, but they are not designed for ice. But I have been on dirt trails with our CJ-3B and kept up with the big guys all day long. I have been in Moab when it was dry and got around the trails just fine. I have not been there when it is wet or snow on the ground so cannot comment on that situation. Tires do make a difference and your driving experience is also a big factor, Keep the rubber down. Lockers are a another part of the traction equation, they do work and they make a CJ-3B get around things a lot better than without. I have learned that you need to evaluate your course closely as you put you CJ-3B into a situation it does not like. Can it do it or not? The Jeep can not make that decision, so you have to be the one to decide if you have the traction needed for your CJ-3B to get thru it or not. Dick W. Spokane Wa. |
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1954 CJ-3B Semi-modified for trail riding in the Northwest. See photos on CJ-3B page owners photos 1954. 1968 CJ-5/1975 231 odd fire V-6/ many other mods. ordered new from Toledo 1968. | |
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| div4gold | Sep 3 2013, 10:44 PM Post #8 |
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My first experience with snow and my old '42 was just fine. I had 750x15 traction tread recaps on it. Went everywhere I wanted. Then later on I got a set of Gates 12x15 tires, they looked real cool and worked fine for the most part until I got into some snow up above Yakima while I was elk hunting. I made it up a hill until I just couldn't go any further and just set there and spun on the top of the snow. I went back down the hill faster than I had gone up and had a eye opening experience with the stock brakes, even with both feet on the pedal it didn't slow it down much. Anyway I lucked out and nothing or nobody got damaged. A friend came along behind me with smaller traction tires and just putted all the way up the hill. I learned that day about weight to surface area in regards to tires and Jeeps on snow . |
Old retired fart living in Ione, WA. I have a 1964 CJ3B. Recently overhauled original motor, transmission and overdrive. 11" Bronco drum brakes on all 4. Needs a new coat of paint but that will have to wait till next summer, it's next summer and I'm working on that now UPS & FEDEX will continue to profit
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| Duffer | Sep 4 2013, 09:32 AM Post #9 |
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Yes, tall, skinny tires can do better than wide tires, but only in very specific snow conditions where the snow is generally loose and not too deep. If it is deep and loose, my experience is it doesn't really matter which tires are on it, you will probably be stuck. Once enough of it is packed under the skidplate, your effective weight on the tires approaches zero and you really need skis. My 3B will just start hopping and there it will sit. On more firm packed snow, it is very much the same as sand. Wide tires and low pressure for maximum flotation, and don't spin the wheels. On firm spring snow with decent flotation tires, you can almost go anywhere a snowmobile can operate-but don't stay too long. If the snowpack warms, you will be staying awhile. |
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John, SW Montana 55 CJ 3B, transmake, fiberglass/aluminum tub/hood/fenders, 381 sbc, AGE M22W trans, "super" D18/Teralows & Warn OD, D44/ARB/Dutchman front & full float D44/Powrloc rear axles-4.10's, Holbrook springs, 4 wheel power discs, Saginaw PS, Warn 8274 68 CJ5, stock 225, T86AA, D18w/ Warn OD, D27A & stock D44 (heavy duty housing)-4.88's, 11" brakes, stock Ross box, Belleview 6000 (a close to stock vehicle, including the Whitco top) | |
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| oldtime | Sep 4 2013, 10:00 AM Post #10 |
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The sand grains themselves provide excellent cohesion. It's very similar to granite, only loose. Hard packed sand is of little concern so long as one does not spin the tires and dig in. The main concern then is soft sand. Rule 1 is to always avoid stopping on soft sand. Tires with large surface contact area are best for sand use. Having zero tread greatly improves the surface contact area. Tread patterns only serve to break up the surface tension of the sand. As you know breaking the surface tension only leads to digging in deeper. The only tread exceptions are the specialty high flotation paddle tires that are specifically intended for use with high HP. Also straight ribbed front tires will allow ample high speed steer control. Anyone want to comment on traversing through moss covered creek boulders ? |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new | |
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| williams3b54 | Sep 10 2013, 11:35 AM Post #11 |
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Williams3B54
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Oldtime, I have traversed a small stream in Idaho once with the CJ-3B and whether there was moss on the rocks or not, wet tires are very slippery. Now days we are restricted from driving in creeks and rivers so gaining much more experience with mossy rocks with the jeep is limited. However I do get out and fly fish the streams and rivers in the Pacific Northwest and I wear waders and boots with felt on the bottoms, (I know felt is being outlawed in some places) and rocks in the stream beds are extremely slick, even with the felt soles. A walking stick is almost all of the time required to keep from taking a dip in the water. As far as moss on creek boulders whether you are fishing the creeks or driving thru them with your jeep it is a slippery encounter, and 'traction' is non existant for the most part. Best to do this with a buddy. He can stay on the dirt and hook his winch to you for the possibility you may need to be retrieved because the moss covered boulders are just to slick. I lived in Evansville Indiana for 5 years and never saw any moss covered boulders in the stripper pits we would go jeepin' in, only red clay and muddy water. Dick W. Spokane Wa. |
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1954 CJ-3B Semi-modified for trail riding in the Northwest. See photos on CJ-3B page owners photos 1954. 1968 CJ-5/1975 231 odd fire V-6/ many other mods. ordered new from Toledo 1968. | |
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| oldtime | Sep 10 2013, 06:49 PM Post #12 |
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We still have lots of gravel and boulder strewn creek beds here in the Ozarks. In a few of the more remote areas abundant creek crossings are still the norm for travel. Boulder strew streams is another place where tall / skinny tires tend to outperform. When fewer of the large boulders are directly encountered you are much better off. So wider is certainly not always better. The NDT tread design is an excellent choice on slippery moss. The sharp edged tread bars will cut away at the moss covering. In fact the NDT tread design is ideal on almost all types of rock but especially useful on large gravel and stone. Those big tread bars don't pick up and sling the stones about. |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new | |
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| HOGHEAD | Sep 15 2013, 09:18 AM Post #13 |
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Old Jeep Fart
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Heres another video that deals with Friction ,,, Enjoy .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...d&v=XSTmgzxEQgk |
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Dargan Md... Death Before 2 Wheel Drive... "On a Steel Horse I ride" AMC Rules. "Journey" not the Destination... 59 Cj3-b (married to a 74 Cj-5 frame & AMC running gear) Willys Overland,, My Build http://z4.invisionfree.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_B...?showtopic=2892 | |
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| jeepcj3b | Sep 26 2013, 09:19 AM Post #14 |
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Not extreme, but here's short video of my CJ5 playing on a wet mossy rock in Va. It required a little traction. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CObEuXQqF4 |
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Derek Chesterfield Va. Trans Vintage CJ3B early tub, late frame, F134, all stock and running. 1981 CJ5 304,T-18,Scout 300 4:1 case, 44 front w/lockrite, 44 rear w/detroit. 1978 SJ 6 other various late models M-100 Trailer M-416 Trailer 1952 Ford 8N 1946 2A for parts | |
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| Lawrence | Sep 26 2013, 09:53 AM Post #15 |
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Lawrence
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My crazy Captain and I were headed to the landing strip, Tin City Alaska 1958, and I think he lost traction. Lawrence
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1955 CJ3B Family Tradition Decatur, AL ~~"Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it"~~ ~~"We cannot direct the winds but we can adjust our sails"~~ http://cj3b.info/Owners/Wade.html http://cj3b.info/Events/SEWillys2017.html http://cj3b.info/Owners/WadeRiver.html | |
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