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| Various DJ Parts Restorations ; intertwined with Off Topic | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 19 2014, 01:23 AM (16,082 Views) | |
| PapaC | Jun 30 2014, 08:15 PM Post #136 |
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Papac
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Whew. Putting that top shaft back together will make you say words like dadgumit, holey smokes, and golley bill (no offense Bill)! The tricky part is after you get the shaft built and working the assembly in around those shifter forks on the side as you slide it in. Guessing that wouldn't be such a problem with a top shift transmission. ![]() EXTREMLY happy at this point. On the bench (table) it seems to shift smooth and free and now I know there's nothing wore out, broke, or buggered up in there. Next, slide that mid plate back off and make some gaskets . As you can see I went ahead and stripped the overdrive but it just can't be as hard putting back together as that transmission half was for me... Expecting when I rebuild my original transmission (at this time it's still in one piece) things will go a lot smoother and quicker now that I've had practice. |
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Charles Tate....North Mississippi 1956 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible Doing ground up nuts and bolt restoration by almost entirely reconditioning original used or a few NOS DJ3A parts. 1962 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible. (For research and parts only) | |
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| PapaC | Jul 1 2014, 09:44 PM Post #137 |
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Papac
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Here was my diagram from the online manual....lots of other good stuff in there too if you can learn to look past everything that is WRONG!!!![]() And here's the overdrive going back together ![]() A rubber band to hold the bearing pins. (That piece also has springs and is somewhat centrifugal. Once examined I also know why any sludge buildup in the overdrive might throw a monkey wrench in the whole works) ![]() Slid right on ![]() After that was the two speedometer gears, pull out on the lock out lever (locking pin removed) so it would clear, and the case slid on smooth as silk. Pushed the lockout lever in place and checked for free movement and spring action, and reinstalled the locking pin, and bolted the whole thing back together. Still got to install the thing, fabricate a special bracket of some kind for the clutch pivot rod and check out the electronics. Bonus is, I now sorta understand how and why the 2 speed overdrive works and exactly WHY you shouldn't oughta try to get in reverse with the overdrive engaged. |
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Charles Tate....North Mississippi 1956 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible Doing ground up nuts and bolt restoration by almost entirely reconditioning original used or a few NOS DJ3A parts. 1962 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible. (For research and parts only) | |
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| SteveK | Jul 1 2014, 10:14 PM Post #138 |
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Very complicated and interesting. I'd never attempt it myself. Question: What is the purpose of two speedometer gears? |
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SteveK 62 Dispatcher South Florida | |
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| PapaC | Jul 2 2014, 02:14 AM Post #139 |
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Papac
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Woke up thinking about this... Wanna know what the worst thing about pictures and service manuals is??? It's when they are WRONG!!! You try to build a t96 from this picture alone, well, it isn't gonna happen and even if you could complete it.....which you 'almost' can.... It wouldn't shift right !!!! ![]() Hint: one of the shafts pictured is WRONG for a t96 and .... One of the gears is turned BACKWARDS!!! Any guesses???? Other hints are in the previous picture on this thread above of the completed transmission half and other hints are in the pictures of THREE different transmissions on the T96 HELP thread farther down on this forum
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Charles Tate....North Mississippi 1956 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible Doing ground up nuts and bolt restoration by almost entirely reconditioning original used or a few NOS DJ3A parts. 1962 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible. (For research and parts only) | |
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| SteveK | Jul 2 2014, 06:39 AM Post #140 |
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My best guess is #49 since in the other pic all tranny gears are 'right to left' orientation...All this tranny work probably should have been in a topic by itself for future retrieval assistance. GOOD STUFF!! OK, that's is what I wondered about the "2 speedometer gears". So, does that mean the governor could be changed for 'operating speed' by changing the gear? and is it the same type and size as the speedo drive gear? I was thinking beforehand the governor was 'centrifugal' in operation instead of gear driven. Another 'off-topic' question: Does anyone know what the Jeepster rear differential ratio was with an overdrive transmission? I'm wondering how my oversized tires on the 4.56:1 (now 4.0:1 equivalent) will impact street speed operation of the OD???? Thanks for all the info... Hey Webmaster. Did you see where a 3B made "Jeep of the Week" at KW? Nice! |
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SteveK 62 Dispatcher South Florida | |
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| PapaC | Jul 2 2014, 06:56 AM Post #141 |
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Papac
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Here's the pics from the other 3 transmissions![]() ![]() ![]() And here's the overdrive one again.... ![]() Noticed just one more tiny little thing wrong with the diagram after looking at these closer |
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Charles Tate....North Mississippi 1956 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible Doing ground up nuts and bolt restoration by almost entirely reconditioning original used or a few NOS DJ3A parts. 1962 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible. (For research and parts only) | |
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| PapaC | Jul 2 2014, 07:22 AM Post #142 |
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Papac
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![]() 1. The reverse first sliding gear in the diagram is installed backwards for a t96 2. The arm that moves it back and forth is twisted 90 degrees out of whack and is installed on the wrong side of the gear 3. The shaft its on in the diagram looks like a t90???...the splines in it are cut straight instead of in a spiral like the t96's 4. The top cover has too many bolt holes...6 like on a t90??? instead of 4 on a t96 instead!!! Lots of difference in the governor drive gear and the speedometer drive gear. The governor drive gear is lots smaller and the spiral in the splines are reverse orientated as opposed to the speedometer one. If not for pictures of real transmissions to look at I might have been in a P-I-C-K-L-E getting this thing back together!!! Ps. Wonder how many people that's confused over the years ??? Here's a link to the whole service manual and we can just add this to all the OTHER stuff in it that's WRONG!!! http://www.jeepsurreygala.com Uh, maybe we should make up some service bulletins and file some complaints and forward to Willys and all the jeep dealerships to see if we could get them to make some CORRECTIONS in ALL of their paper work concerning DJ's!!! ![]() EDIT: further research indicate that the t96 transmission diagram featured on the Kaiser willys website confirm my conclusions. Especially of concern was the verification of the correct orientation of the first reverse sliding gear. Also of concern, at least to wondering why....is the absence of the front input shaft felt washer, again verified as not there on the kaiser willys drawing. Out of FOUR T-96's I've been into none of them had any remnants or signs of a felt washer or any other type of oil seal ever having been installed in the front bearing retainer. |
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Charles Tate....North Mississippi 1956 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible Doing ground up nuts and bolt restoration by almost entirely reconditioning original used or a few NOS DJ3A parts. 1962 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible. (For research and parts only) | |
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| PapaC | Jul 2 2014, 08:07 AM Post #143 |
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Papac
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Betcha you could, the little gear just pins to the motor on the governor.....(I'll get more pictures when I get around to popping the cork on it and checking out the internals) IF they make....ever made.... or even if you could even find some of those little gears somewhere . Steve you might want to give Herm the overdrive guy a call. About every post I've ever read about him says he's both knowledgable and friendly when it comes to helping. |
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Charles Tate....North Mississippi 1956 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible Doing ground up nuts and bolt restoration by almost entirely reconditioning original used or a few NOS DJ3A parts. 1962 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible. (For research and parts only) | |
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| PapaC | Jul 8 2014, 12:01 AM Post #144 |
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Papac
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Overdrive clutch tube installation kit Hand made Work in progresses Not sold in stores!!!! ![]() ![]() The transmission side pivot bracket was made out of what used to be the tow bar brackets that were on the old bumper An extra inside pivot bracket was re-fabricated to fit existing holes in the frame (extra work but I didn't want to drill any new holes in the frame itself while relocating the pivot) Both brackets will necessarily reposition the clutch tube apps 3/4 inch back from it's original position to get clear of the overdrive solenoid. So will be making the new rod (I 'think' it might have come off of a old lawn mower or garden tiller?) 3/4 of an inch longer than the original to maintain geometry on the clutch tube The clutch cable itself will adjust to the extra length without further modifications Had to weld up the mounting hole and extend the cable bracket for the overdrive lockout 1/2 inch and re drill the hole so as to clear the new bracket. The clutch tube itself had to be repaired and then shortened to fit (will not change geometry or position of the pivot brackets that are on it) The spring still needs to be cut to fit inside both ends of the clutch tube The steel rounds were cut off of a old bolt that had buggered up threads The pieces of felt still need to be cut to fit. (Found those in one of my dad's old toolboxes) The two grease seals were made out of the sole of one of my wife's old shoes (springy rubber) Except for the minor modifications that are left to complete everything has been mocked up, tested for function, and then disassembled for final finish work. I'll also have to turn the lockout lever itself so that the offset itself extends out and then I will have to cut most of the offset out of this lever so as to line up with the repositioned cable holding bracket. I've decided to refer to the making of this kit as 'Advanced Bubba Technology'!!!! NO original parts were butchered during this process and everything could be easily reversible with the original t96 and accompanying parts!!! |
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Charles Tate....North Mississippi 1956 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible Doing ground up nuts and bolt restoration by almost entirely reconditioning original used or a few NOS DJ3A parts. 1962 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible. (For research and parts only) | |
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| F Bill | Jul 8 2014, 07:22 AM Post #145 |
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The 2A and 3A guys often use clevises and pins on threaded rods to allow some more adjustment and put the pins in double shear.....As long as you are making a rod you might consider that as it is less apt to wear quickly and also they seem to work better. There are also discussions about reversing the clutch tube to get better mechanical advantage on the clutch, and lessen wear on the driver's leg. That is a personal choice ...do you want more travel and less force, or less travel and more force. I wasn't aware the OD got in the way of the linkage, I'll have to look at how they did it in my Surrey project. |
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59 convertible 15933 needs drivetrain 60 convertible 17052 has a V6 and 4WD 60 Surrey 17509 went thru Katrina and looks it. 60 Surrey 17918 started it all...Toyota axle, BW Wrecked Surrey Tub with fenders and grille 56 tub, from 11826 And a couple parts DJ's with no ID left. All my jeeps are projects....only runner is my DJ with doors.. | |
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| PapaC | Jul 8 2014, 03:44 PM Post #146 |
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Papac
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Steve pointed it out to me months ago that we'd have to make brackets for the clutch tube pivot ball on the transmission side. Almost caused me to go into full panic mode at the time. The addition of the wide spacer at the back of the t96 and the addition of the overdrive unit which is bolted to it means the smaller pivot ball bracket on the back of the old transmission will no longer fit. Pictures of the installed assembly coming soon. |
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Charles Tate....North Mississippi 1956 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible Doing ground up nuts and bolt restoration by almost entirely reconditioning original used or a few NOS DJ3A parts. 1962 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible. (For research and parts only) | |
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| SteveK | Jul 8 2014, 09:38 PM Post #147 |
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I'd love to see pics of how that Surrey was done. I didn't do quite as many complicated changes as Charles, but squeezed it all in OK. I let the clutch pivot absorb my extra 1/2" back distance with the levers angled more forward, almost same distance for both. Adjustment can be done at clutch cable if needed. The frame pivot was just rotated clockwise on the front mounting bolt to align with my 1/2" distances upward and backward of the trans pivot side, and then a new hole drilled to mount it. My setup only required shortening the pivot assembly tube 1/4" at the trans end and not messing with internal parts, or the rod length. Speaking of 'rod length', one thing my Dj came with was a flat bar drilled to match up with the rod ends, and was installed over the ends on the other side of the levers to stiffen the rod. I have not seen that extra part anywhere else or on any others, but it is easy enough to do if desired, and can't hurt the action. I converted to a 12Volt solenoid, and since I'm not concerned with 'authenticity', I made a bracket on the solenoid to hold the aftermarket relay and a fuse right there at the needed location for easy access and testing, and an 'aluminum heat shield' underneath to keep the exhaust heat in very close proximity, from the electronics. I also made a bracket on the reverse shift lever to engage a break/make switch (Astro brake switch) to interrupt the OD governor's 'ground circuit' as well as engage backup lights when the transmission linkage goes into reverse. This ensures the OD can not be engaged in reverse by mistake, a devastating event if occurs. I hope to try it all out on the road by end of summer. We'll see how it goes... |
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SteveK 62 Dispatcher South Florida | |
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| F Bill | Jul 9 2014, 06:59 AM Post #148 |
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Jeep discovery and aquisition specialist
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I promise next time I am in Coleman I will attempt to get some pictures of that OD setup on the Surrey project. It might be a while though, I'm enjoying the daily severe weather of upstate NY too much right now. That extra bar stock added to your clutch rod acts similarly to the clevis setup I was speaking of....probably not quite as strong but a definite improvement. The stock L shaped rod end is just not the best solution for that application and has wear and strength issues a pin and clevis would solve. Steve, that's the first I have heard of the reverse problem.....Please educate me what can happen if you leave it engaged in reverse? There is a pull cable attached to mine, and an unwired solenoid....What does each do? How does the driver normally operate the overdrive?? |
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59 convertible 15933 needs drivetrain 60 convertible 17052 has a V6 and 4WD 60 Surrey 17509 went thru Katrina and looks it. 60 Surrey 17918 started it all...Toyota axle, BW Wrecked Surrey Tub with fenders and grille 56 tub, from 11826 And a couple parts DJ's with no ID left. All my jeeps are projects....only runner is my DJ with doors.. | |
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| SteveK | Jul 9 2014, 12:29 PM Post #149 |
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OK Bill, I'll try to recall what I've read from the internet, but maybe Charles has a solid first-hand understanding having been inside the OD gears set up. The cable is used to engage the rear lever for the OD 'potential'. Then the govenor has to reach a 'designated speed' which Charles mentioned is done via a speedometer type gear arrangement. With designated speed reached, the governor engages sending a ground through the kickdown switch (closed under normal throttle) to the relay (on the firewall?). The relay sends the voltage to the solenoid engaging it into the gear set activating the OD gears. From here I'd have to guess that with things spinning backwards in reverse, something has to give. How, what, or why I don't know and don't want to experience. Maybe Charles can enlighten us with what he saw internally. There are a couple of Overdrive related sites for review if you're interested in more specifics and diagrams. Now when desiring more power for hills or passing (?), full throttle pedal opens the kickdown switch govenor/relay circuit and also closes a circuit from the engaged solenoid (the second terminal there) and that ground momentarily grounds the ignition coil to cause the engine to 'burp' or 'hickup' which is enough 'load relief' for the solenoid to disengage, and you are temporarily in standard gear (2nd or 3rd) until you let off the gas and OD automatically kicks back in. No gear or cable movement required. Before backing up, you're to pull the cable control which brings the back lever forward and prevents govenor ground potential (not that I can imagine going fast enough in reverse to activate it, just like you can't in 1st gear forward either... theoretically). There was also mentioning of 'freewheeling' and parking in gear when OD is engaged that I don't fully understand. Hope that helps. |
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SteveK 62 Dispatcher South Florida | |
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| PapaC | Jul 9 2014, 02:32 PM Post #150 |
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Papac
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I'll try....again... If tried answering the questions 4 different times through a detailed post and each time I lost it before I could save it. Instead now try this link, maybe it'll help better than I could describe anyway. http://www.fordification.com/tech/overdrive.htm Ps. The cable goes to the lockout lever which goes to the shift rail which extends through the spacer into the main transmission and bumps against the fork on the first reverse sliding gear, technically preventing from shifting into reverse. In the forward position it also closes the circuit to the overdrive rail switch at the back of the OD allowing voltage to continue to the gear driven governor which also has a solenoid in it. At 28 mph it sends a signal to the main OD solenoid which pulls up a pawl and releases the gear so that the OD can begin to engage. In the back position that shift rail locks down the pawl , kills electricity by pushing the button on the electric rail switch, and releases the reverse fork in the transmission. Basically bypassing the OD completely at that point. If you were to overcome the shift rail and actually get into reverse without the OD locked out, instant destruction of some very expensive gears. Those gears WILL NOT turn backwards when the sun gear is engaged!! Even if NOTHING is moving....they STILL will not turn backwards. Another ps. The only brass parts in the OD is a couple of brass sleeves on the forward gears. The manual says not to use synthetics oil because it can (especially the older synthetic oil I assume) build up a sludge that is VERY detrimental to the operation of the OD . Herm also says not to use synthetic. Apparently those moving internals are very sensitive to what makes them operate correctly!!! ![]() Another note. If you set your watch timer correctly and get the jeep up to 98 mph you gotta be real careful. At that speed the flux capacitor is liable to kick in and whatever happens next..... Well at that speed it COULDN'T be good!!!!
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Charles Tate....North Mississippi 1956 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible Doing ground up nuts and bolt restoration by almost entirely reconditioning original used or a few NOS DJ3A parts. 1962 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible. (For research and parts only) | |
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