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Various DJ Parts Restorations ; intertwined with Off Topic
Topic Started: Jan 19 2014, 01:23 AM (16,085 Views)
PapaC
Papac
[ *   *   *   *   *  ]
Actually did spend some time today with a magnifying glass. Not a real substitute for magnafluxing but it was the best I could do. :)

Closer examination showed only one of the heads looked almost new, especially under the camera, but still, they both look real good. I didn't do any real cleaning, just brought them in, brushed them off, and wiped them down for pictures and inspection.

Here's three pictures showing the cosmetic differences in the embossing.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

The JEEP only one has a bigger threaded hole here
Posted Image

Next I'll show the real differences which is in the combustion chambers themselves.








Charles Tate....North Mississippi

1956 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible
Doing ground up nuts and bolt restoration by almost entirely reconditioning original used or a few NOS DJ3A parts.

1962 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible. (For research and parts only)
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PapaC
Papac
[ *   *   *   *   *  ]
The brighter one is the Jeep only one

Posted Image

The below WILLYS combustion chamber is a good bit deeper
Posted Image

Than this Jeep combustion chamber which is a different design. (Not carved out as deep but also part of an extra circle ground out as shown.


Posted Image



Charles Tate....North Mississippi

1956 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible
Doing ground up nuts and bolt restoration by almost entirely reconditioning original used or a few NOS DJ3A parts.

1962 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible. (For research and parts only)
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F Bill
Jeep discovery and aquisition specialist
[ *   *   *   *   *  ]
Charles, do I see a threaded and plugged hole in the front surface of the head behind the water pump? I think you may have a genuine pair of M 38 heads there...with the telltale bypass hose connection.

The smaller thermocouple hole looks like it has a bushing in it, possibly broken off...

both appear to be 6.48 to one compression, interesting compression champer differences...If you could check, see if they both measure out to the same thickness from the gasket surface to the top of the machined rib and bolt hole surface...
59 convertible 15933 needs drivetrain
60 convertible 17052 has a V6 and 4WD
60 Surrey 17509 went thru Katrina and looks it.
60 Surrey 17918 started it all...Toyota axle, BW
Wrecked Surrey Tub with fenders and grille
56 tub, from 11826
And a couple parts DJ's with no ID left.
All my jeeps are projects....only runner is my
DJ with doors..
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PapaC
Papac
[ *   *   *   *   *  ]
Quote:
 
Charles, do I see a threaded and plugged hole in the front surface of the head behind the water pump? I think you may have a genuine pair of M 38 heads there...with the telltale bypass hose connection.


Good eye. I didn't post that picture because I didn't think it would be important


Posted Image


Quote:
 
The smaller thermocouple hole looks like it has a bushing in it, possibly broken off...


Again, a super A + observation!!!

Scratched the paint off and what I thought was just casting....well the brass bushing appeared like magic!!!

Posted Image



Quote:
 
both appear to be 6.48 to one compression, interesting compression champer differences...If you could check, see if they both measure out to the same thickness from the gasket surface to the top of the machined rib and bolt hole surface...


THANKZ AND A TIP OF THE HAT too....
and Give the man a CIGAR!!!

The jeep one is thinner. Specifically, about the thickness of a nickel.

I can detect no obvious traces of machine work as shown here in a photo taken today in more natural light. What I can see is traces of where a head gasket was stuck to it at one point. It also appears the surface area of the main compression chamber and the extra circular area have the exact same 'slightly bumpy' texture

Posted Image





Charles Tate....North Mississippi

1956 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible
Doing ground up nuts and bolt restoration by almost entirely reconditioning original used or a few NOS DJ3A parts.

1962 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible. (For research and parts only)
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SteveK
Member
[ *   *   *   *   *  ]
Thanks to PapaC my first look at the underside of these flat-heads really shows me why they are so inefficient. The design has 'combustion' off to the side of the piston, instead of over it to push it down. That's like trying to fly in a crosswind. No wonder 'burnt valves' were a problem often. Too tight a valve clearance setting leaves the seat vulnerable, and ALL of the combustion is aimed right at it. Better a little loose than too tight.

Looks like someone thought milling the max off of the head would help boost performance, but in actuality, I think it probably hurt it. The more it is milled (lowering the plug tip location) looks like the more the spark would be on the side of the piston, especially with the remaining chamber design in the picture. That would just push the piston more into the cylinder wall at first spark. I wonder if that is why the head is off of the engine, didn't work out right. Do you have the block too to see if the cylinders or pistons show impact?

Maybe that head with a little massaging/grinding relief over the piston area, indexing and spacing the plugs, plus 'degreeing/retarding the cam timing relationship to allow the piston a head start down the cylinder before TDC, would boost the power some?????

Better yet, PapaC, fire up the foundry and cast us all a 'center-fire head design' for a more efficient burn and more power....your next million dollar project.

These ole things really have some untold stories in them...very interesting! Thanks!
SteveK
62 Dispatcher
South Florida
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F Bill
Jeep discovery and aquisition specialist
[ *   *   *   *   *  ]
With it being a flathead engine you are pretty limited as to chamber design. You have to have the area above the valves no matter what.You need room for the head to go when the valve opens.. If you go for more chamber above the piston the CR gets lowered all out of whack. TO remedy that then you'll need pop up pistons...That shaved head looks remarkably like the supersonic head...

Now as long as Charles is firing up his Ronco Casto- Matic, we may as well have him work on that overhead valve design racing head. Aluminum would be nice, and maybe about an 8.5 to one comp ratio...Gotta have cast in lettering too that we can paint a contrasting color.

I did a CR comparison to the Supersonic head over on the 2A pages, search for going supersonic, texas style to see it....pretty interesting stuff was posted in the thread.

It might be worth asking the guys on the 503 M38 board about the head numbers, or the willys mjeep site where all they do is m 38.....
59 convertible 15933 needs drivetrain
60 convertible 17052 has a V6 and 4WD
60 Surrey 17509 went thru Katrina and looks it.
60 Surrey 17918 started it all...Toyota axle, BW
Wrecked Surrey Tub with fenders and grille
56 tub, from 11826
And a couple parts DJ's with no ID left.
All my jeeps are projects....only runner is my
DJ with doors..
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F Bill
Jeep discovery and aquisition specialist
[ *   *   *   *   *  ]
More reading for you:
http://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/going-su...l?KW=supersonic

Most notably take a look at the combustion chambers, and look at eth part number listing in the thread..
59 convertible 15933 needs drivetrain
60 convertible 17052 has a V6 and 4WD
60 Surrey 17509 went thru Katrina and looks it.
60 Surrey 17918 started it all...Toyota axle, BW
Wrecked Surrey Tub with fenders and grille
56 tub, from 11826
And a couple parts DJ's with no ID left.
All my jeeps are projects....only runner is my
DJ with doors..
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PapaC
Papac
[ *   *   *   *   *  ]
Lots of good information in that thread and maybe I won't have to go to 503 after all!!!



Willys Head #800376
Quote:
 
the 800376 is a civvy and MIL (m38) application. found on many DJs,  It's also the 6.48-1 BA


This confirms my belief that the Willys marked head I have is indeed likely the original head for my extra DJ block

______________________________________________________________________

Jeep Head #807763



Quote:
 
....casting #807763 and is Industrial....... but this DOES have 6.48 cast right into it.


I confirmed from a picture on ebay that my 807763 with its odd shaped chambers did indeed start life out as a willys industrial head. My guess is that at some point it was (GUESS) milled to (MAYBE) 7/1 compression ratio and at this time the (GUESS) INDUSTRIAL embossing was also milled off.

___________________________________________________

THUS my conclusion is that I need to keep the 800376 head for my extra dj block and the 'value' of a unknown, milled 807763 industrial head is probably next to nothing unless a person wanted to 'experiment' (I think not) for personal use)



Charles Tate....North Mississippi

1956 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible
Doing ground up nuts and bolt restoration by almost entirely reconditioning original used or a few NOS DJ3A parts.

1962 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible. (For research and parts only)
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PapaC
Papac
[ *   *   *   *   *  ]
The good news is, I carried my four best brake drums to town to get them lightly turned. Had to make FIVE phone calls to find someone who does that kind of work anymore!!!
Charles Tate....North Mississippi

1956 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible
Doing ground up nuts and bolt restoration by almost entirely reconditioning original used or a few NOS DJ3A parts.

1962 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible. (For research and parts only)
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PapaC
Papac
[ *   *   *   *   *  ]
EDIT: the seller said the stuff is off a 56 dj. He didn't have any info on the jack bracket, just said he threw it in. What he DID have that wasn't listed was a gas tank filler tube, an item I hadn't gotten around to making yet.

I managed to purchase the filler tube from him at a very reasonable (cheaper than I could make it) price.

Also in so doing he made another offer last night and the auction has now been canceled and completed offline for the price of the starting bid!! :D

waaaaa hoooooo!!!
Charles Tate....North Mississippi

1956 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible
Doing ground up nuts and bolt restoration by almost entirely reconditioning original used or a few NOS DJ3A parts.

1962 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible. (For research and parts only)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
F Bill
Jeep discovery and aquisition specialist
[ *   *   *   *   *  ]
You know, Charles, it has been quite an adventure watching you do all this.. If you ever get tired of finding your own parts I do have a red convertible just aching for a few pieces too. Thanks to your quests it has been spared from being parted out to being a restoration candidate now that I realize just what it is .

Thank you for helping my own addiction along!!
59 convertible 15933 needs drivetrain
60 convertible 17052 has a V6 and 4WD
60 Surrey 17509 went thru Katrina and looks it.
60 Surrey 17918 started it all...Toyota axle, BW
Wrecked Surrey Tub with fenders and grille
56 tub, from 11826
And a couple parts DJ's with no ID left.
All my jeeps are projects....only runner is my
DJ with doors..
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
PapaC
Papac
[ *   *   *   *   *  ]


O'Rileys only turned three of the drums I took in. Both front and only one rear.

Come to find out that on the rears...they need the hub removed from the drum so it will fit their equipment

By the way, the cost of getting the drums turned was only 12.00 each!!!!

Next time I go down that steep hill behind my house towards the lake (someday) I'm going to have real BRAKES!!!!

Charles Tate....North Mississippi

1956 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible
Doing ground up nuts and bolt restoration by almost entirely reconditioning original used or a few NOS DJ3A parts.

1962 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible. (For research and parts only)
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PapaC
Papac
[ *   *   *   *   *  ]
I kept thinking something was up with my clutch and brake shaft. There was a bolt with a cupped washer on one end and a kind of nut with a big sleeve on the other end that goes through the middle of the whole thing. For this bolt to go through there's a carter key that's got to be spread inside the shaft to provide clearance for the bolt, and another carter key that has to be removed completely.

I was wanting to know if there were seals supposed to be in it and what was up with a missing carter key hole that you couldn't get a carter key in so I got to looking for a picture or diagram

Without very much success looking at the factory parts diagram and service manuals (online) so I expanded my search.

Come to find out it's got a dealer installed "pedal slack adjuster kit" as seen here

Dj3A clutch and brake tube pedal slack adjuster kit
http://www.cj3a.info/tech/pedalslack.html

According to the link these didn't come out until about 1958 which is why I'm guessing it was at some point dealer installed. (Mines a 56)


From the link



Home | Site Map | Contact Information Wobbly Clutch and Brake Pedals? Early CJ clutch and brake pedals often develop an annoying side to side wobble. The condition will progress to the point where the pedal shafts contact the holes in the floorboard. Wobbly pedals are usually due to a combination of several worn parts. This wear is quite possibly caused by lack of regular lubrication. Typically the worn parts are the Brake Pedal Shaft, Pedal Shaft Retainer Bracket, Master Cylinder Tie Bar, and Brake Pedal (arm). During normal use the Brake Pedal Shaft rotates inside the other 3 components each time the clutch is depressed. A complete repair involves replacing all the worn parts. This can be difficult and time consuming since the Pedal Shaft Retainer Bracket is riveted and welded to the vehicle frame. Removal of the Brake Pedal Shaft often requires dropping the exhaust header pipe for clearance. Parts Information: Part Number Description Group A-495 Shaft, Brake Pedal, Assembly 24-08 647636 Pedal, Brake, Assembly 24-08 645086 Bracket, Retainer, Pedal Shaft, Assembly 26-01 647592 Bar, Tie, Master Cylinder 24-06 It is interesting to note that the CJ-3A's military sibling, the M-38, utilized a Pedal Shaft Retainer Bracket that is bolted to the frame for easier servicing. In about 1958 Willys finally developed a kit to solve the pedal wobble problem. The solution was to pull the entire assembly together with a long bolt that passed through the center. None of the worn parts are replaced with the installation of this kit but it seems to solve the problem, even if just temporarily. The illustration below shows the stock parts that wear, and in red the Slack Adjuster Kit components. Here is the official Willys sales pitch sent out to the dealers convincing them to stock the kit: 'Jeep' vehicles which have been subjected to hard off the road use, or those which are aging provide an excellent opportunity to make quick sales of Pedal Slack Adjuster Kits and installation labor. When a 'Jeep' vehicle comes into your service department for any reason, take a few seconds to check the clutch and brake pedals for side movement (wobble). If side movement is detected, bring the condition to the owner's attention and tell him that it can be remedied quickly and inexpensively with the installation of a Pedal Slack Adjuster Kit. The slack adjuster is so designed that it will provide further adjustment as additional wear occurs. The pedal slack adjusters are easily installed as explained in the installation instructions furnished with each kit. The ease of installation, plus the saving in parts cost of new pedals and shaft, will provide you with the opportunity of building customer good will. Part No. 921936 Pedal Slack Adjuster Kit is designed for use on 'Jeep' Universals--The list price is $2.00. Part No. 921937 Pedal Slack Adjuster Kit is designed for use on 'Jeep' Utility Vehicles (except Forward Control models); the list price is $1.80. If you are not presently merchandising this desirable item, place your order for several of each of the kits now and place your Parts and Service Departments in a position to make a quick an easy profit from parts and labor. Keith Layton recently purchased an NOS Slack Adjuster Kit at a swap meet and the following instructions were included in the kit. INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS CLUTCH AND BRAKE PEDALS SLACK ADJUSTER KIT NO. 921936 1. Remove the cotter pin at the end of the pedal shaft inboard of the brake pedal. 2. Insert a screw driver inside the pedal shaft from the outboard end and spread the brake pedal inner cotter pin to clear the adjusting bolt. 3. Slide the flat washer and cup washer on the bolt, furnished in the kit. Insert the bolt through the shaft from the outboard end. See illustration. 4. Clean the inner and outer surfaces of the inboard end of the shaft. 5. Lubricate the pedal shaft. 6. If necessary, pry the exhaust pipe away from the pedal shaft for clearance. 7. Thread the adjusting nut, furnished in the kit, on to the bolt. Tighten the adjusting nut snugly, then back off until the pedals operate freely without slack. 8. Lock the adjusting nut in position with the lock nut furnished in the kit. NOS 921936 Pedal Slack Adjuster Kit Keith Layton photo The CJ-3A Story | CJ-3A Photos | CJ-3A Specs and Tech Tips | CJ-3A Literature | Siblings of the CJ-3A | Accessories | Links CJ3A 7/06

As I stated the missing carter key is what had me concerned and is the main thing that started me looking. The parts diagram show two carter keys. Mine was missing the one that wouldn't go in anyway because of the sleeved nut on the bolt.

Conclusion....waaa hoooo I actually discovered a dealer installed part on my jeep.


By the way, anybody heard from Bill lately???

I haven't seen him posting anywhere and am getting sorta concerned.
Charles Tate....North Mississippi

1956 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible
Doing ground up nuts and bolt restoration by almost entirely reconditioning original used or a few NOS DJ3A parts.

1962 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible. (For research and parts only)
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PapaC
Papac
[ *   *   *   *   *  ]
Got the pedal slack adjuster kit correctly installed with the bolt going through the middle of the spread carter key and the washers in the right placev like in the instructions. (it wasn't installed right the first time.....imagine that)....

And then I moved on to adjusting my front end and ran into a major problem that had to be corrected. When I set my steering bell crank perpendicular to the frame like it's supposed to be there was NO WAY my tie rod adjustment rods were going to work.

The Ohio front axle I'm using didn't come with them so I was going to reuse my old rodsv and had loosely fitted them up. Come to find out both right and left were equal length and well, that throws the bell crank wayyyy out of whack.

One of the equal length shorter ones I was able to make work on the short side by trimming about a quarter of a inch off of both ends which should still leave enough threads that it'll be ok and leave room for adjustment.

I did have a longer adjusting rod that came with the ohio stuff but it was a fraction TOO long. Like the shorter one I had already cut I trimmed a quarter of a inch off of each end of it.

Though I haven't precision adjusted then yet, I. 'Think' this going to allow me to get everything back in whack and get the bell crank pointed like it's supposed to be.

Every time I 'think' I'm about through with the frame I find something else to do to it.
Charles Tate....North Mississippi

1956 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible
Doing ground up nuts and bolt restoration by almost entirely reconditioning original used or a few NOS DJ3A parts.

1962 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible. (For research and parts only)
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PapaC
Papac
[ *   *   *   *   *  ]
I sure was glad Bill to hear your ok!!! It kinda takes a load off of my mind!! Sure will be glad when you get the New York stuff done and get back to a internet connection!!!!



Charles Tate....North Mississippi

1956 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible
Doing ground up nuts and bolt restoration by almost entirely reconditioning original used or a few NOS DJ3A parts.

1962 WILLYS DJ3A Convertible. (For research and parts only)
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The Bantam Trailer forum covers Jeep trailers.