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1964 DJ-3; Brake upgrades
Topic Started: Aug 10 2016, 03:41 PM (561 Views)
Deanmac
Member
[ *  ]
About 18 months ago I purchased this jeep and the brakes have never been that good. It developed a couple more issues. My Wife's first cousin was a local High School automotive teacher and he worked on the jeep at school and all it cost me was parks. They replaced the head gasket and studs, replaced a seal and fixed the emergency brakes and couple more small issues.

They replaced the brake shoes, a couple wheel cylinders and adjustment cams and bleed the brakes and adjusted. Well school was out and he thought it was fixed. Bottom line the brakes still were not that great. A hard petal, but you really had to stand on them to stop the vehicle and that was not good.
Since school was out, I took the jeep to a local shop and explained what had been done and seeked his suggestions. Pretty much only thing we thought it could be would be the master cylinder. Well today we talked and he said the master seems to be working, it is getting fluid to all four wheels and the wheels stop when jacked up and you put on the brakes.
He said he did not know what else to do without do some type of upgrade.
We discussed front disk brakes,

The jeep is in good condition and runs like a sewing machine. I just don't trust driving it with the brakes so weak.

What do you guys suggest? Of course I want to keep the expense as low as possible, but with all the new brakes parts todate it really has not helped much at all. I realize it is not going to stop like a new vehicle, but my dad had a 66 CJ and it would slide tires when you got on the brakes. Brakes would have to be better than what I am experiencing. LOL

The front axel has been replaced with 4X4 which was not stock on DJ,
So to convert to disk brakes, I really don't know what/where the axel came from and what kit would work.
Colin told me the hubs were Dualmatic hubs from a picture I sent him.

Please any suggestions will be appreciated,Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image
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Deanmac
Member
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I searched all the old post about brakes, but still need your help and suggestions
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Rus Curtis
Member
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Dean,
First, do you have the earlier brakes that have a total of 4 adjustment cams (two at the bottom, two just above the axle housing) or the later style that only have two cams just above the axle housing? Adjustment should create a slight drag.

Have the drums been turned where the inside diameter is bigger than the brake shoe material diameter?

Either of the above could allow the brake shoe to not make full contact and not stop effectively.

It is possible that you could still be having fluid blockage.

Have the brake shoes ever been contaminated with fluid, i.e. brake fluid, oil etc?

Lastly, are you sure the replaced parts are correct for your jeep (not, "they told me the parts were correct.")?

Did you keep the old parts?

FWIW, upgrading doesn't "fix" a problem. It replaces a problem.

Rus Curtis
Alabama
'54 CJ-3B "Green Gruntt"
Bantam T3-C
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SteveK
Member
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Since you mentioned you've already been in discussion with Colin and with pictures, I'm not sure what has already been discussed. The first thing I see is, the rear axle has been changed too, it shows 5 lugs. Dj3As only had 4 lugs and 2WD. Djs also came with 9X2" brakes vs 9X1-3/4" brakes on 4WD, and with larger wheel cylinders (1-1/8 frt/15/16 rear). 4WD typically came with 1" frt and 3/4" rear cylinders. Are line sizes and cylinder sizes matched? Are fluid lines partially blocked where it will stop a free wheeling roll, but not a weighted inertia rolling vehicle? When I got my Dj, the pedal was hard and stopped the wheel's free spin, but I almost ended up into the garage door with 'no brakes' in a 50ft driveway test run. I replaced all lines with new steel lines (one of the fronts had copper) and replaced 'everything' actually, but not my point. You might want to pull wheel cylinders and check for corrosion inside behind the cups (found that too) if vehicle has been sitting for a length of time. Also remember, you have added weight with 4WD with the transfer case and all, and on the front end with the 4WD axle vs the I-beam, and with the smaller shoes and drums probably. I would suggest pulling the cylinders and seeing if they look OK and IF trash or corrosion is there and/or in the lines as a start. While there measure the cup sizes to determine what you have there, and the shoe width to see what you have there too. BTW, another thing I found when I got my Dj, the PO had installed the shoes backwards. The longer shoe material goes to the 'front facing positions' where the 'work' is done. Hope something here helps. Good Luck!

Edit:P.S. Disk brakes do not necessarily STOP you better than WORKING DRUM brakes, unless you using it in a lot of water conditions. Disk conversion=EXPENSIVE!!!!
SteveK
62 Dispatcher
South Florida
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Deanmac
Member
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Rus Curtis,Aug 10 2016
05:25 PM
Dean,
First, do you have the earlier brakes that have a total of 4 adjustment cams (two at the bottom, two just above the axle housing) or the later style that only have two cams just above the axle housing? Adjustment should create a slight drag.

Have the drums been turned where the inside diameter is bigger than the brake shoe material diameter?

Either of the above could allow the brake shoe to not make full contact and not stop effectively.

It is possible that you could still be having fluid blockage.

Have the brake shoes ever been contaminated with fluid, i.e. brake fluid, oil etc?

Lastly, are you sure the replaced parts are correct for your jeep (not, "they told me the parts were correct.")?

Did you keep the old parts?

FWIW, upgrading doesn't "fix" a problem. It replaces a problem.

Two adjustments

Did not turn hubs but it could have been done before I got it.

Brakes shoes are new on back and appear great shape on front, no contamination.

parts matched the ones that were taken off, I bought from a very knowledgeable parts place in Piedmont AL that specializes in jeep parts.

Old parts trashed.

Could be a partial blockage we discussed this today, lets fluid to each wheel but not enough pressure to stop.

The mechanic, has an old military jeep at his shop that he has replaced everything new including lines and he said it was not much better than mine on stopping???? I know those jeeps had to have better brakes than what I am seeing.


Just thinking out loud, could both folks who have worked on this jeep not really know how to adjust? They talk like they know what to do?

I






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Deanmac
Member
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SteveK,Aug 10 2016
05:58 PM
Since you mentioned you've already been in discussion with Colin and with pictures, I'm not sure what has already been discussed. The first thing I see is, the rear axle has been changed too, it shows 5 lugs. Dj3As only had 4 lugs and 2WD. Djs also came with 9X2" brakes vs 9X1-3/4" brakes on 4WD, and with larger wheel cylinders (1-1/8 frt/15/16 rear). 4WD typically came with 1" frt and 3/4" rear cylinders. Are line sizes and cylinder sizes matched? Are fluid lines partially blocked where it will stop a free wheeling roll, but not a weighted inertia rolling vehicle? When I got my Dj, the pedal was hard and stopped the wheel's free spin, but I almost ended up into the garage door with 'no brakes' in a 50ft driveway test run. I replaced all lines with new steel lines (one of the fronts had copper) and replaced 'everything' actually, but not my point. You might want to pull wheel cylinders and check for corrosion inside behind the cups (found that too) if vehicle has been sitting for a length of time. Also remember, you have added weight with 4WD with the transfer case and all, and on the front end with the 4WD axle vs the I-beam, and with the smaller shoes and drums probably. I would suggest pulling the cylinders and seeing if they look OK and IF trash or corrosion is there and/or in the lines as a start. While there measure the cup sizes to determine what you have there, and the shoe width to see what you have there too. BTW, another thing I found when I got my Dj, the PO had installed the shoes backwards. The longer shoe material goes to the 'front facing positions' where the 'work' is done. Hope something here helps. Good Luck!

Edit:P.S. Disk brakes do not necessarily STOP you better than WORKING DRUM brakes, unless you using it in a lot of water conditions. Disk conversion=EXPENSIVE!!!!

Colin just told me what kind of hubs were on jeep, we did not discuss the brake issue.

Your problem sounds like mine very hard petal, but want stop, want even slid tires on dirt.

Two new wheel cylinders on back, that matched the ones that came off the jeep. One of them was completely frozen up.
The front looked ok and were functioning.

Your comments of the back axle has been changed also, makes we wonder if the correct parts were put in before I purchased since they were looking for DJ parts and it does not have DJ axels?

Have not addressed the lines, Anyway to check the fluid pressure at each wheel, before I start replacing lines and Master cylinder.
Heck I would replace both, if it would fix the brakes, but hate to do that and still not have brakes and then go to a conversion.

Know knowing what is really on the Jeep concerns me!!!!

As you stated what is on jeep should work, I am tried of hearing none of those jeeps have any brakes. LOL

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SteveK
Member
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Chances are that the 4WD brakes are what is there. Probably a complete powertrain swap done. The rear differential on a Dj has a centered pumpkin, vs the offset of 4WD. The front Dj brakes are VERY RARE to find, while the 4WD are not. If wheels lock the tires in a stop, there isn't much more you can expect from them.

If it were mine, I'd start by having a helper push the pedal one time to the floor while monitoring each wheel's separate 'output' caught in a jar for comparison. While the pedal is held down, close the bleeder screw. I'd start at the closest location to the distribution block, and then move to the next closest, etc, filling the MC after each wheel to keep it full. I'd also monitor each jar's output content for contamination as well as quantity. 4 Separate and equal marked jars allow for post test evaluations/comparisons. At the minimum from the test, you have replaced the fluid with new and bled the brakes to eliminate that. If no change in performance, I would then pull front cylinders apart for inspection, and measure the cups. They do most of the work, and you said you have new on the rears.

Another suggestion that I did with mine, while opened up, I grooved the top of the cam and marked the locations of the adjustment cams to indicate MAX and MIN clearance of the shoe to drum. That way I could start at minimum, and equally move the two cams to get equal adjustment for each shoe, and that centers the shoes to the drum for equal movement distances. Also while the drums are off, measure the ID. Max allowed is 9.125". If drums are too worn or have been turned too much, they won't work right and approach safety issues when too thin of material at friction surface. In other words, check everything carefully for diagnosis as well as equipment knowledge of what you've got, and most importantly...for Braking SAFELY.

Another suggestion, since you are probably dealing with 4WD brakes, you may want to ask some questions on the CB3 side, with backing plate pics to ID the system, as I don't know how many of those guys read here, and THEY have the experience with 4WD, and only speaking for myself, I don't. Stick with it. Step by step. Good Luck!
SteveK
62 Dispatcher
South Florida
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Deanmac
Member
[ *  ]
SteveK,Aug 10 2016
08:33 PM
Chances are that the 4WD brakes are what is there. Probably a complete powertrain swap done. The rear differential on a Dj has a centered pumpkin, vs the offset of 4WD. The front Dj brakes are VERY RARE to find, while the 4WD are not. If wheels lock the tires in a stop, there isn't much more you can expect from them.

If it were mine, I'd start by having a helper push the pedal one time to the floor while monitoring each wheel's separate 'output' caught in a jar for comparison. While the pedal is held down, close the bleeder screw. I'd start at the closest location to the distribution block, and then move to the next closest, etc, filling the MC after each wheel to keep it full. I'd also monitor each jar's output content for contamination as well as quantity. 4 Separate and equal marked jars allow for post test evaluations/comparisons. At the minimum from the test, you have replaced the fluid with new and bled the brakes to eliminate that. If no change in performance, I would then pull front cylinders apart for inspection, and measure the cups. They do most of the work, and you said you have new on the rears.

Another suggestion that I did with mine, while opened up, I grooved the top of the cam and marked the locations of the adjustment cams to indicate MAX and MIN clearance of the shoe to drum. That way I could start at minimum, and equally move the two cams to get equal adjustment for each shoe, and that centers the shoes to the drum for equal movement distances. Also while the drums are off, measure the ID. Max allowed is 9.125". If drums are too worn or have been turned too much, they won't work right and approach safety issues when too thin of material at friction surface. In other words, check everything carefully for diagnosis as well as equipment knowledge of what you've got, and most importantly...for Braking SAFELY.

Another suggestion, since you are probably dealing with 4WD brakes, you may want to ask some questions on the CB3 side, with backing plate pics to ID the system, as I don't know how many of those guys read here, and THEY have the experience with 4WD, and only speaking for myself, I don't. Stick with it. Step by step. Good Luck!

thanks Steve great suggestions, I am headed to mechanic in a few to discuss the issues again. I am pretty handy and grew up in a shop, but don't really have anywere to work on the Jeep. I really think the mechanic does not want to spend the time to try and find my issue. ????

Wheels only lock when spinning when jacked up will not even lock on wet grass trying to spot weight of vehicle.

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