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cj3b with V6... throwout/ clutch release bearing
Topic Started: Jun 8 2018, 12:01 PM (348 Views)
OliY
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Hey All,

So, i've rebuilt my transmission and replaced the clutch plate with a kit for the buick 225 V6. However, the throwout bearing that came with the kit is longer/taller than then one that came off my jeep when i dismantles it. There are actually several small differences between the old and the new.
All of the 225 V6 throwout bearings seem to be the same as my new one online and I cant find or know what clutch system the old bearing was originally designed for.

Has anyone else had an experience like this? The transmission was a T-86 body and gears which I changed for a complete T-90 setup.

Any clues would be much appreciated so I can resemble the clutch and transmission and move on with the project.

Thanks

Oli

PS the cj3b was a 1960 model and the buick V6 is 1967

Edited by OliY, Jun 8 2018, 12:03 PM.
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oldtime
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There are several release bearing assemblies that can be used.

The type of pressure plate installed will be either 3 finger or a diaphram type.
That alone can effect proper fit.
Correct fit may also depend on the specific manufacturer of your pressure plate
Also also the diameter of the bearing retainer snout .

I will assume please verify that you have a GM # 9774035 bellhousing.
Number should be located on edge of bellhouse and very near the release fork opening.

You say its a T90 with 1-1/8" diameter bearing retainer snout ?

What type and brand is your clutch pressure plate and disk ?
Can you upload pics of your old and new plate/disk ?
Can you upload pics of your old and new release bearing and carrier ?

You may want to upload a pic of your release fork too.

Sometimes the release bearing itself can be changed and the bearing hub is re-used.


Edited by oldtime, Jun 9 2018, 09:15 AM.
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)

http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new
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spm1us
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Hello, are there any part numbers on the release bearing itself? A good parts house or if you have a clutch rebuilder/driveline shop in your town/nearby should be able to match it up for you. As Oldtime said you may be able to just replace the bearing and re-use the carrier/housing. Let us know your specifics. Good luck with your project, Sam Michael Jr, Jax, FL
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oldtime
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The 1967 Dauntless was originally equipped a Borg Beck diaphragm type pressure plate.
They used GM Part # 907558 .
But Jeep also installed Borg Beck 3 finger plates from 1969-1971 GM.
Most all replacement clutches these days are of the diaphram type.

I have some NOS release bearings available if your interested.
May also have other related parts. Contact me...

In this pic you can see basic difference between a diaphragm type release bearing and a 3 finger release.
Diaphragm type pressure plates require a release bearing having a rounded face.
The 3 finger release bearings have a flat face.

The diaphragm type bearings are often times part of the carrier and so the carrier is not re-usable.
Posted Image

Also note that not all carriers are of the same depth.
The proper carrier depth depends upon clutch manufactures design specs.

Edited by oldtime, Jun 15 2018, 04:35 PM.
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)

http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new
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OliY
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Hey guys, thanks so much for responding to this with your advice and info. I've gone back and checked the parts for numbers and got some photos together based on what you all wrote.

here;s a link to the pics .... https://ibb.co/album/hyBM1F

and some more info....

I bought the replacement kit from summitracing part number LUK-04-003
(https://www.summitracing.com/search?SortBy=BestKeywordMatch&SortOrder=Ascending&keyword=LUK-04-003)

There's an instruction manual download on the website which seems to have only 1 relevant section for CJ Jeeps (Section LB133 p368) which talks of release bearing issues but neither of their descriptions seem to match my situation.
in case anyone is interested the download is here... https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/luk-04-212.pdf
It does however state that release bearings are not interchangable.

As I can understand it my old system was a 18-fingered diaphragm Borg and Beck spring clutch with a NOVA pressure plate neither of which appear to have part numbers.

The original bell housing has the number 9774035 as you said oldtime.

The new kit is also an 18 fingered diaphragm spring clutch and which has some minor differences to the old but seems to fit the flywheel well. The new pressure plate seems to be identical to the old.

See pics of the transmission snout end with inch sizes in decimals (not fractions) and differences in release bearings.

Spm1s, there are no markings or numbers on the bearings themselves.

Thanks again for any more help with this.

Oli


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OliY
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Just did a bit more work on this when I noticed that the 2 diaphragm cases are noticeably different in depth . Laying both down on the work bench side by side the old Borg and Beck housing stands taller, the new diaphragm looks thinner altogether.

I mounted the new pressure plate with the old Borg diaphragm housing tightened down and measured the distance between the plate and the top edge of one of the springs and got 1.08 inches.
I then switched the old housing out for the new and took the same measurement and got inches 1.02 so there is just -.06 inches difference in the spring to plate distance, whereas the new bearing is around .25 longer than the old.

My old bearing is 1.61 inches tall and now with the new diaphragm there's a .06 of an inch more room to make up so a new bearing would need to be 1.67 inches tall.

Just thought I'd throw this thinking into the pot so someone could tell me I'm wrong and that they have a better idea!! :D
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oldtime
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Oliy,
FYI the pressure plate is the solid portion under the large cover plate that presses direct to onto the driven disk.
The driven disk is thin has a splined hub and is generally made of compressed fibers.

Sounds to me like the original release bearing dimensions should be near ideal.
I'll go measure a couple diaphragm type bearings I have and let you know what height they are.
All my release bearings slide over a 1.375 bearing snout diameter.

Yes the OEM NOS "GREEN" bearing manufactured which was located in nearby Cleaveland, Ohio measures exactly 1.61 inches as you stated.
I just don't know if you can even find a similar bearing that is .06 inches longer.
You could try locating an old fashioned independent auto parts store with lots of old books.
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)

http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new
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OliY
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Thanks again for the info Oldtime,

Do you think I can get away with using my old bearing collar and getting a mechanics shop to swap the new bearing across? albeit .06 short?


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oldtime
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I took a look at the pics of both your new and your old bearings.

I cannot be 100% positive but the old one certainly appears to be a Green CB 1178 C.
Those bearings cannot be removed from the bearing carrier (hub) without destroying the bearing itself.
And so there is no way to press a bearing onto the carrier because the bearing and the carrier are a unit.
It also Looks like your new bearing cannot be removed from it's carrier.
So it very doubtful it can be removed without destruction but you can certainly try to remove the Green bearing from the bearing carrier.
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)

http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new
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OliY
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Thanks Oldtime, sounds like I've got a real challenge on my hands finding the right bearing. Just google searched the CB 1178 C and got very little indeed. Someone on the jeep.com forum suggested that I use the new bearing and adjust the clutch cable but that sounds too easy, especially given all the other info that I have been given about throw out bearings etc.

What do you think?

So frustrating being held up by such a small (but important) part!
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OliY
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Also theres a very small stamped '22E' stamped into the bearing although I doubt that this really helps with identifying anything?
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OliY
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Oldtime, I see you are a moderator here. Is the admin involved with this forum the same as the CJ5 forum? I wanted to try and post there as many more CJ5's obviously have the V6 and hopefully more likely someone there might have had the same experience as me. I've been trying for months to reach the admin at CJ5 as I have still not been sent an account confirmation email and no one is answering my emails. Just figured you might know more? thanks
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oldtime
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Yes the Green CB 1178 C is a very rare number these days.
There are some more common numbers.
I have the Jeep part number if you want that. It's 907558

I can't hardly imagine that 1/16" will make any difference .
I would expect the standard release bearing to be a near perfect fit.
That said there are some adjustable release bearings but I have no experience nor any part numbers for those.

I initiated my internet experience well over a decade ago right here on the CJ-3B Bulletin Board.
I have been an ECJ-5 member for many years and its still one of my favorite sites.
I suggest you contact Focker I expect he can help you join.
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)

http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new
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oldtime
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It's possible you may be able to take your new release bearing and press the bearing off from the carrier.
Then put the carrier in a lathe and custom shorten it to meet your specs.

Sent you a PM on what I have available....
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)

http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new
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OliY
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Thanks so much for all this help Oldtime!

So as a progress report...

I made a decision to use the new bearing I got with the kit as I have a lot of adjustment available at the clutch cable end. I finished rebuilding my T-86 transmission case with all new T-90 parts, installed the replacement pilot bearing which needed boring out as the new T-90 drive shaft which was .03 thicker than the old shaft.

I went to install the transmission and finally get the job done only to find that the damn transmission would not fit against the bell-housing and was dead-ending somehow. finally took it all apart again for the 10th time after much head scratching and frustration, removed the clutch gear completely and reinstalled the bellhousing only... the transmission fit like a glove.

Realized I bought a clutch kit for the 225 which is not compatible with the T-90 (at least the driven disc isn't). added a photo here.. https://ibb.co/album/hyBM1F

Now I need to figure out if I need a whole new pressure plate and disc or just a different disc. If I go for a new plate and disc then do you know which one of these might be correct? https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/jeep,1966,cj3,3.7l+225cid+v6,1381216,transmission-manual,clutch+kit,1993

I bought the original kit from summit racing but on 2nd inspection it doesn't look like they do a CJ3b/225 v6 clutch kit but they do sell plates and discs separately for my setup.

Do you have any suggestions for this?

PS thanks for the PM's. I think i'll try with the bearing I have for now but really good to know you have some originals!!
PPS I'll try and get in touch with Focker.
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