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Games and Stuff; Gaming talk, and so forth...
Topic Started: Oct 18 2004, 05:49 AM (230,198 Views)
Juron Pilo
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I would think Shield/Coil towers would be an effective counter to your Sacrifice tactic, but considering all the other stuff we're requiring humans to build at this point it may be infeasible, which leads right back to the humans require time and laborers to get things to work point.
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Arc
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(Q)_< Well the thing is I think half the humans need to build while keeping aware of oncoming attacks, and the other half need to get to good positions to counter the zerg rushes
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Don't worry, if the Bison ever take over the midlands Godzilla will take care of them. Just like he did with Bambi.
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Juron Pilo
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That problems resolved by towers, the issue really isn't defending your position, but expanding now...
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Forever Zero
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Towers are a weird issue. They seem to have generally low HP, but their attack power is so high they usually kill anyone one person before they can really damage it. However, Artillary reduces them to rubble in short order, even at fortified positions.
"It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane."
- Philip K. Dick
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Iyestorm
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So, it's hard to aim *anything* as a beast? Huh. And here I thought I just sucked.

Dr. Wiley has surrendered. Mega Man has saved the planet from destruction. But will it last!!!

"Think about it, mate: legends! When has a legend ever not been true, huh? HUH?!"

--Marine, Sonic Rush Adventure

"Good Morniii--AGH! I can't do it! I don't wanna be cute! I wanna be a boy!"

--Ouran High School Host Club; Haruhi's English Voice Actor messing around.
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Juron Pilo
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Anyways, to answer Arc, yes, its important to upkeep buildings if your a human worker.
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Forever Zero
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Iyestorm,Sep 7 2006
10:46 PM
So, it's hard to aim *anything* as a beast?  Huh.  And here I thought I just sucked.

Most of their weapons are pretty wonky. The Chaos Shot has very short range, the Frost Bolt is like the slowest shotgun ever (They can literally run out of the way before it hits), and the Flame Shot arcs like a fiend, but at least has long range. The mid range attacks are better on accuracy and just tend to have a very short range (Except for the lightning/hail shot thing, which has long range and high power but slow shot speed), and I've only tried Lightning for the level three attacks, and I couldn't hit anything with it (Damn you building, I know you're dodging my attacks somehow!) If you badly need accuracy, go with the Level 2 attacks, otherwise just spam attacks until you run out of energy, then go melee.
"It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane."
- Philip K. Dick
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Vortex
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Ideally, it takes a while to get used to the weapons accuracies, but really for the Hoarde Carni+Pred is the way its done. Oh, and incidentally, if they were using mortars and RL's, they missed out on one of the best parts of the Chemical side. Det packs. Its unbelievable fun running around/dodging tower fire, dumping a det pack outside one of their key buildings and detonating it. But still, I stand by my statement that too many towers is the sign of a bad commander. Better things to be channeling those resources into to be honest.

Essentially, while the horde is solo based, humans need some backup. Admittedly a decent human player can take out a horde one to one (THANK YOU BLOCK!), it only really applied to the nomad and.... the horde equivalent. At the end of the day, the key thing with either time is to stay mobile. If you're raiding early, just keep moving. Take out anything you comfortably can. If you're on base duty, mine, build structures, but keep an eye out for horde intervention, ESPECIALLY if one of them starts chewing on your workers. For raids, see if you can safely take out their workers. If not, hide behind their comm center and start chipping away. Every beastman you draw is one thats going to be taking longer getting to your base.
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Juron Pilo
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Spamming any unit is bad?

See, your not getting it. Units and guns are fairly cheap to produce. I'm talking resource allocation. Humans have a surplus of minerals from mining quickly, and they need to use them somehow. Structures and in turn artillery are the obvious choice, and while you might need to create a line of electric weapons, like FZ said(and I was thinking, I agree on the weapon choice) and camp a bottleneck, artillery is ultimately the best long-term solution.
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Vortex
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Using resources on towers will be getting you arty that much slower, yes?
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Juron Pilo
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Not if it holds the horde back, thus protecting your investments in other buildings.
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Vortex
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Ah, but see, the horde might be held back, but they won't be turtling. Which means that your precious towers will become either useless or mincemeat very soon. How about invisibility? Seeding enemy bases with fire totems is a stock tactic for the horde. Besides, those towers may hit hard, but.... they don't usually ACTUALLY hit. Its pretty trivial to dodge their fire, giggling maniacally as you det-pack/kamikaze someones building. Towers have their uses, but turtling with them isn't one of them.
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Juron Pilo
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... Towers CAN'T move. They HAVE to turtle.
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Vortex
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Towers are good for sticking in chokepoints or for some rudimentary defense on far flung strongholds. Turtling madly with them is a waste of resources.
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Juron Pilo
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Ok then? Now tell me how thats any different than what I've been saying all along.
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Vortex
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.... You're talking about turtling. Turtling is the act of spamming defensive structures until your base is pretty much impregnable. Except in this game it isn't. Towers need to be used sparingly.
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Juron Pilo
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No, thats EXTREME turtling.
Extremes are bad.
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Vortex
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No, thats turtling. Otherwise its known as "defending a base".

Edit: Defending your base is standard, turtling is an acknowledged strategy.
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Juron Pilo
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I'm not going to bother trying to convince you to abstract the term and to get rid of your prejudices.
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Forever Zero
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No, Vort is right. The term Turtling is an RTS strategy term where you build up your main base defenses to unspeakable preportions, and then slowly advance in every technology and unit advancement (Relying on your superior base defense instead of a large army to hold the enemy off), until you have maxed out every research and unit, and THEN you build a massive army of Endgame units to trash the enemy. It's a valid strategy that, while flawed, I tend to stand by (It works better in some games then others). There is no such thing as Extreme or Non-Extreme Turtling, the entire strategy is summed up with the one word.

EDIT: The thing is, Savage is a lot more about the FPS side then the RTS side. The new guns and gadgets can really help out, but if they're good enough FPS players, they don't need a lot of technology to kick ass. Also, you can't prefectly direct units: If you tap a character and tell them to go one way and they go the other, you can't stop them. Thus, you need to use a lot of non-standard strategies to win a game of Savage, and Turtling isn't the one that works the best. Redrock Resource points run out of resources very, very fast, and if you don't expand you'll run out in very short order. Since the PCs generally like to spread out and start looking for a baddie to kill, expanding is a natural extension of that that is both effective and necessary. Sure, drop a few towers down at each point, but unless there is a critical chokepoint you can exploit, don't bother over-defending any one location since they tend to be disposable. Generally I see 1-2 towers used to good effect, and in the endgame 3-4 towers defending a Sub-Lair is adaquate. It's mostly a way to slow down the enemy, since there are ways to trick the Towers and attack without retaliation, and only a PC can root out those attackers.
"It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane."
- Philip K. Dick
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