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| Games and Stuff; Gaming talk, and so forth... | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 18 2004, 05:49 AM (230,857 Views) | |
| mordain | Sep 16 2005, 02:44 PM Post #11201 |
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Codewalker
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Actually, in the video they had a bit with someone playing Mario using the wand. She had to use the sensoring function to jump, with this little flipping motion in the wrist... I don't think it used the joystick. It seems they're not using that part if they can possibly avoid it. They'd probably impliment something similar for SSBM... And it sure doesn't look like it'd be 'just like a traditional controller' if you turned it on it's side to me... for one thing, there's the trigger buttons on the bottom... |
| Live and learn - or die and teach by example. | |
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| MFD | Sep 16 2005, 03:31 PM Post #11202 |
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THIEF!
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Well, clearly I need to be in my room when my roomie isn't sleeping... Need to see the video. But I like the nunchuck configuration of the Joystick! And they used it in the Metroid demo, according to the articles. |
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Oceans rise, empires fall I need to know If the world says it's time to go Tell me will you freak out? | |
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| Ou des | Sep 16 2005, 03:32 PM Post #11203 |
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Clockwork Contraption
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I'm imagining those. I think it'll be annoying. And I like controllers. And buttons. This thing only seems to have 2... Incidentally the Xbox controller is the best on I've seen on any platform. |
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| MFD | Sep 16 2005, 04:56 PM Post #11204 |
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THIEF!
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... Just the RPGs'd be annoying, or everything I said? Hmph. And Mordain, I didn't say a standard controller. But if you flip it vertically, it DOES look like an NES controller. Which cold be for the NES version of the Virtual Console. |
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Oceans rise, empires fall I need to know If the world says it's time to go Tell me will you freak out? | |
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| Forever Zero | Sep 16 2005, 05:08 PM Post #11205 |
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The REAL internet rage machine
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The problem is, I CAN imagine most of these idea, and the image is stupid as hell. Warcraft without a real, honest to goodness mouse? Now YOU'VE lost your damn mind. I have enough trouble getting off precision commands with a keyboard with dozens of hotkeys and a mouse to get precise location and group orders, I try to imagine doing all this by flipping and twisting that control around and I say, "No." It will be 100 times LESS precise, and it will allow less overall functionality. RPGs, fuck no. And TWO games on an entire console do not an RPGer make. I've got one for you, Quest 64. It bombed, rightfully so... Completing that game was an exercise in masochism (And I almost did it too, except my Memory Card data died as I was getting close to the end...). Ever since the age of the SNES, and Nintendo lost Squaresoft, they haven't had a damn clue what to do with their systems when it comes to RPGs. This right here is only going to scare off any others that might have gone to them. Who wants to point a controller at their screen for an hour or two while they play? RPGs are not known for being short games. Platformers? Now I KNOW you've lost your mind. If you think cameras are bad now, imagine a system where unless you hold absolutely still, the Camera will move when you even think of twitching that oh-so-sensative control around. Imagine trying to jump from platform to platform, and the camera suddenly goes ballistic because you sneezed. Imagine trying to play this as one of those people that moves a lot when they play, it'll be like Super Platformer Seizure Party Explosion, as the camera will constantly be whipping and flying around like crazy when you try to do battle. Nintendo will make it work, because they're NINTENDO. They flush more raw gaming goodness down the toilet then most companies create in years. Mario will rock, Link will rock, Samus will rock... And everything else will suck. That's how the N64 was, that's how the Gamecube was, that's how the Revolution will be. Even then I'm doubtful. When you say someone will "make it work", it means you have no idea in hell how they will make it good, but damnit, you have faith they WILL against all odds. Well I think the odds are just too high this time. And why would you want to play a game for ten minutes? I like to play my games in 1-2+ hour chunks. I don't want to play my game as a TV series, I want to play it as a movie. Also, last but not least, it's not a wand! Have you seen a wand, this isn't one! Wands are long and thin, this is a TV CONTROLLER. Go to your living room, look around, I'll bet you can find a couple for comparison! |
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"It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane." - Philip K. Dick | |
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| mordain | Sep 16 2005, 05:10 PM Post #11206 |
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Codewalker
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I did say at one point I'd wait to pass judgement... Turned sideways, it's a rather annoyingly stretched-out NES controller. You can't PLAY modern games with an NES controller. RPGs, fighting games, ANYTHING. Two buttons and a d-pad? That's just wishful thinking... But then, I'm not a nintendo fanperson (oh, by the way, I missed your post at the end of the last page. Your idea for warcraft was a BIG stretch... that game is made for the PC, pure and simple. I've never seen anyone play WC using just the mouse... the keyboard is too ingrained in the system), so I'm probably more cynical than you. Really, I think my problem is that it's NOT as original as they're making it out to be. The wand is basically a mouse, and a two-button mouse at that (I like the little scroller wheel...). It's... a PC that looks like a console, where you can hold the mouse in one hand and the joystick in another. That doesn't excite me at all... I don't relish the idea of holding a mouse up in the air and waving it around... edit: *appluads FZ on a better rant than hers* |
| Live and learn - or die and teach by example. | |
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| MFD | Sep 16 2005, 05:38 PM Post #11207 |
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THIEF!
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"Warcraft without a real, honest to goodness mouse? Now YOU'VE lost your damn mind. I have enough trouble getting off precision commands with a keyboard with dozens of hotkeys and a mouse to get precise location and group orders, I try to imagine doing all this by flipping and twisting that control around and I say, "No." It will be 100 times LESS precise, and it will allow less overall functionality." Well, golly GEE. Naturally, they'd be making some transitions. And would you get off the flipping the wand thing? I did NOT mention the rotational aspects for RTSs. There are the A & B triggers, and the start & select buttons. Are those enough hotkeys for you? If not, there's also the a and b buttons, though I would be curious as to how to hold them. "RPGs, fuck no. ... This right here is only going to scare off any others that might have gone to them. Who wants to point a controller at their screen for an hour or two while they play? RPGs are not known for being short games." Most of that seems not directed at me, so I'll address what you said in response to the Revo, as opposed to RPGs on Nintendo, in general. The controller doesn't need to be pointed at the screen. Hell, I was only thinking of ways to use the controller's motion features. It doesn't HAVE to. We have the D-Pad, Start, Select, a, b. RPGs aren't precisely known for using alot more buttons than "Move, Pause, Menu, Accept, and Cancel." Respectively, the Revo controller fits. "Platformers? Now I KNOW you've lost your mind. If you think cameras are bad now, imagine a system where unless you hold absolutely still, the Camera will move when you even think of twitching that oh-so-sensative control around. Imagine trying to jump from platform to platform, and the camera suddenly goes ballistic because you sneezed. Imagine trying to play this as one of those people that moves a lot when they play, it'll be like Super Platformer Seizure Party Explosion, as the camera will constantly be whipping and flying around like crazy when you try to do battle." OK, maybe so. I was a little tired when I made the post. It SEEMED like a good idea at the time. I'll accept this point against me. "... And everything else will suck. That's how the N64 was, that's how the Gamecube was, that's how the Revolution will be. Even then I'm doubtful. When you say someone will "make it work", it means you have no idea in hell how they will make it good, but damnit, you have faith they WILL against all odds. Well I think the odds are just too high this time." Well, fuck you. I'm no game designer. How the flying FUCK should I know how the third parties will make it work? Sure, the Revo may just get third party FPSes, but that's SOMETHING the Cube didn't get alot of. I expect the third parties will make more use out of the joystick addition than Nintendo will, because the joystick is something they know. Hell, you saw MY ideas. I expect the joystick to get alot of use. "And why would you want to play a game for ten minutes? I like to play my games in 1-2+ hour chunks. I don't want to play my game as a TV series, I want to play it as a movie." I'm not saying you have to, but you CAN if you WANT to. Remember Super Mario Bros. 3? You could pick it up, an in five minutes be halfway through a level. THAT'S what Nintendo's going for. Pick up and play. You shouldn't have to keep playing long after you've had enough, because you need to find that save point. Case in point, Metroid Prime. Save points are literally ALL OVER Tallon IV. You can play for ten minutes, or two hours. If you EVER get bored with it. "Also, last but not least, it's not a wand! Have you seen a wand, this isn't one! Wands are long and thin, this is a TV CONTROLLER. Go to your living room, look around, I'll bet you can find a couple for comparison!" Huh. Never heard someone call it a TV controller. Usually it's "remote control." And yes, they're wand-shaped. Sort of. In my eyes. Now for Mordain. "Turned sideways, it's a rather annoyingly stretched-out NES controller. You can't PLAY modern games with an NES controller. RPGs, fighting games, ANYTHING. Two buttons and a d-pad? That's just wishful thinking..." I think I pointed out how you CAN play any RPG with a simplistic controller. Other than that, the main use for the "stretched-out NES controller," as I've BEEN SAYING, is to play the NES games you can download from OFFLINE. You know, using the Revo's Virtual Console feature. "The wand is basically a mouse, and a two-button mouse at that." ... A mouse is in 2D space. The wand is in 3D space. There's a slight difference... |
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Oceans rise, empires fall I need to know If the world says it's time to go Tell me will you freak out? | |
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| Just Jon | Sep 16 2005, 05:40 PM Post #11208 |
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The Sexy One
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Right, there's too much anger here. Deep breaths people! |
No fanfare, no special effects... Just Jon![]() Out of Context Quote: "God DAMN these electric sex pants!" | |
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| mordain | Sep 16 2005, 05:47 PM Post #11209 |
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Codewalker
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Truely spoken by someone who doesn't play many RPGs... and even if you're right, how'n the hell do you use start and select as play buttons? They're meant for OTHER things. But disregarding that... RPGs are increasingly having more and more complex gameplay. There's a reason that the PS2 controller has four main buttons, L1/R1/L2/R2, and two analong sticks which also double as buttons (the rarely-thought-of L3 and R3). True, not every game USES all those buttons (can't think of one that uses L3 and R3, which I mentioned for completion's sake), but a LOT of them do. A lot of them use BOTH analog sticks, even. And turned on it's side, it doesn't have the miraclulous wand capability. How are you supposed to move around in a three-dimensional environment with a d-pad?
No, it's still a mouse. The third dimension is of limited usage. You cite mostly scrolling around a screen as the benefits, not moving into and out of the screen. A TV is 2-dimensional. The third will always have limited functionality, useful mostly in light-sword style games, which I've already admitted would work well. edit: Oh, and holding your arm up in the air for ten minutes, let alone an hour, is pretty tiring... |
| Live and learn - or die and teach by example. | |
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| MFD | Sep 16 2005, 05:58 PM Post #11210 |
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THIEF!
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??? Um... one of the articles mentioned moving the controller towards the screen to zoom in for a sniper rifle. Sorry, I tried not to rehash stuff presented in the article. Granted, I didn't play FFX, or any of the Japanese RPGs that you've played, like Star Ocean, but I've played the few RPGs on the Cube, as well as the PSX FFs, and the only one that actually utilized more buttons is MMX: Command Mission. It's one of the faults I've found with ALL of the RPGs I've played. "And even if I'm right?" Come on. That's a lame CYA. OK, this is getting a little heated. I will say no more, until new info comes to light. Like me actually holding the wand. (By the way, I've known the GTA series to use the third pair of triggers, and I find them awkward. Even though it's just the horn blaring, or the sirens turning on.) |
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Oceans rise, empires fall I need to know If the world says it's time to go Tell me will you freak out? | |
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| demener | Sep 16 2005, 06:02 PM Post #11211 |
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Sage
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Couple thoughts on the controller... One Nintendo flop everyone seems to forget is the Virtual Boy. There is another example of a system with little 3rd party support. I only had 3 games for mine, and of those (A space shooter, mario tower, galactic pinball) the pinball game was the only one that I could play for a long time. Also the system hurt the eyes. Now I know it's been a long time since then and this system wont be 2 colors, but the possibility of limited support and sub par games remains. Secondly, why would anyone want to turn a controller sideways and use it? I like well designed controllers, playstation 2 controller and GC controller are good controllers. Who will wan to buy a system where most of the standard games have to be played through improvosation. I myself will wait a while before deciding whether or not to get this system. On a side note the page with the baton comparison had a baton add for me. Other news: A reason for Suikoden fans to buy the PSP. |
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| Forever Zero | Sep 16 2005, 06:03 PM Post #11212 |
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The REAL internet rage machine
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Have you ever played an RTS?! Two buttons, right off the bat, are devoted to Select and De-select. You need roughly 4 buttons JUST to handle your groups. 1-4 is dedicated to my main battle groups. And if I have sub units (All the Healers, all the Support Units, all the Artillery, Heroes, whatever)? Even more, usually up to 6. And NOW you have to factor in Special Attacks. Every unit, along with "Attack" has special powers, usually one, up to 4. These all need their own hotkeys, because in the middle of an intense battle you don't have time to mouse click every unit and every power preciseley when you need it (Some of them are Pre-Battle buffs. Some are Emergency Escapes. Some of them are In-Battle attack/heal powers). And then there are other hotkeys. Like the one that lets you jump immediatly to your HQ, wonderful if you base is under attack while your troops are in the field. We've got at LEAST 10 buttons so far, and usually I would say the number is closer to 15.
That... Could be acceptable. It's not ideal, but it WOULD, technically, in the most basic sense of the word, work.
Ohh, someone's getting snippy. Maybe they will, maybe they won't, we'll all see. Personally, I see it being too out there. They know how to work with controllers, they know how to work with Light Guns, but this is not quite either. The only game I know of that tried to combine the two tanked (It was a Resident Evil FPS/Light Gun game that got horrible reviews). I expect implementation to be awkward for a LONG time until they get the hang of it, and just as they DO get the hang of it... Time for the next generation Nintendo console! Get ready for some NEW wacky, bizzare technology to surpass their last one!
No, you HAVE to. There's no other way to play it. Hold out your arm. Keep doing it. Do that for 2 hours. Tell me how your arm feels, it probably doesn't feel to good anymore, does it? That will be EVERY game that focuses on using the controllers motion sensitivity system. It won't force you to stop through boredom, it'll force you to stop through muscle fatigue.
You can call a rose 'raw sewage', and raw sewage 'a rose', but a rose is still a rose, raw sewage is still raw sewage, and THIS is not a wand, it's a remote. My first thought on seeing it was that you would be using it to watch DVDs on the Revolution, and then I realized the awful, awful truth. |
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"It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane." - Philip K. Dick | |
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| mordain | Sep 16 2005, 06:09 PM Post #11213 |
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Codewalker
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(part of the reason I didn't mention SO3 is because the battle system is more like a fighting game than a standard RPG. But anyway:) *stops discussing stuff she's really not qualified to criticize*
Damnit! Now I'll have to get a PSP... not that I didn't want one anyway... |
| Live and learn - or die and teach by example. | |
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| Ou des | Sep 16 2005, 06:17 PM Post #11214 |
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Clockwork Contraption
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How might these hot keys be created? Sure would be convinient... |
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| Forever Zero | Sep 16 2005, 06:20 PM Post #11215 |
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The REAL internet rage machine
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... You don't know? Most RTSes, you just select the group, and hit CTRL + #, and that sets up a group. Every time you hit that number gain, it selects everyone in that group attached to that number. Hit it twice and you usually zoom to the group. |
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"It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane." - Philip K. Dick | |
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| mordain | Sep 16 2005, 06:20 PM Post #11216 |
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Codewalker
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Random question. Does Nintendo use pressure-sensitive buttons? |
| Live and learn - or die and teach by example. | |
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| Ou des | Sep 16 2005, 06:22 PM Post #11217 |
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Clockwork Contraption
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Er... no I didn't But now I do. And knowing is half the battle! Seriously it'll be nice to have a huge melee then see an enemy Dreadnaught and not have to trial and error my way through the squads to find my heavy weapons squad. |
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| Forever Zero | Sep 16 2005, 06:24 PM Post #11218 |
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The REAL internet rage machine
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Not EVERY RTS is like that, but most are. If you read through the instructions, most will tell you how if you don't use the CTRL+# system. And yes. The Gamecube's L and R buttons are pressure sensative, why? |
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"It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane." - Philip K. Dick | |
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| mordain | Sep 16 2005, 06:27 PM Post #11219 |
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Codewalker
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It was a crucial element of SO3, so I was just curious. As for the RTS discussion... it won't work on a console without a keyboard attached. Although, if you can use the wand like a mouse (although an analog stick with a trigger would be just as good if not better), if you have a keyboard too, it might be possible, although probably more annoying than the PC version... |
| Live and learn - or die and teach by example. | |
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| Ou des | Sep 16 2005, 06:28 PM Post #11220 |
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Clockwork Contraption
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In-struk-shuns? I usually don't read them. Maybe I should. |
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