| Welcome to Captain SNES. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Game Theory; Oh man, this stuff is awesome. | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 15 2006, 04:47 PM (612 Views) | |
| Notty | Dec 28 2006, 07:06 PM Post #41 |
![]()
Annoying Little Boy
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I'm not necessarily sure I completely agree with you when you say the majority *supports* the dominant strategy, though. The Smash Boards example is a rather poor one, because it involves competitve play. In terms of single-player, choosing to travel the road less taken should be perfectly fine. Four White Mage run of FF1 anyone ?
|
![]() |
|
| Drekal | Dec 28 2006, 07:13 PM Post #42 |
|
Birthday Ninja
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
JP was commenting on how games like Final Fantasy don't need to rely on strategy, and can be considered good stories rather than good games. Or something like that, correct me if that's wrong. The book agrees with you on that point, really. The strategies involved in that game are solely found within the context of battle: What is the best move to take at any given moment in the given battle? Sure, you could maybe set up a long game within a single battle, but that'll last only as long as the fight itself. I agree that most gamers like to have the ability to cheat to win. They may like a dominant strategy. They may like to have one character that is game breaking and allows them to win every time. But how long does that remain fun? Honestly, who can say that once they got Knights of the Round, FF7 still had anything left to offer them? Once you had that, it trumped every-damn-thing else in the game. If I found myself in a parallel world where there were televised tournaments of SSBM, and everyone wavedashed, went the same characters and fought the same strategies... The battles would all come out the same, ultimately making them predictable and not so interesting to watch as they would have been otherwise. In any case, SSBM does have a rich gameplay because there are many diverse characters with their own strengths and weaknesses. None of them is really game breaking without the aide of a highly skilled player. And even within the characters themselves, those strengths and weaknesses can be used in all sorts of varying degrees: For instance, I prefer aerial assaults, lots of dodging and long range attacks. Anyway...The point the book was trying to make is that it is poor from a designer standpoint. That is to say, why design any strategy if it's not as good as another one? Thus, they must all complement each other somehow. Like how Black Mages are weak physically but can do a helluvalot of damage with their spells. Presented with a dominant strat, players are likely to take it because that's how people work. |
That which holds the image of an angel...![]() Amy: You do have a plan, don't you? Doctor: Of course I do! New Objective: Think of a plan. | |
![]() |
|
| Juron Pilo | Dec 28 2006, 07:36 PM Post #43 |
|
Sage
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Then by that measure, FF games are extremely poor. If you know the secrets, you can find weapons and armor or know in advance what spells and skills you need to defeat a boss no problem. This is why I only ever managed to beat an FF game by playing co-op, where the sharing of information and group planning provided me with some interaction where the game couldn't provide it otherwise(all the snes games allow co-op). You don't need Knights of the Round. All you need is stuff like the dancing daggars and the duping bug. Like in FF4. Heck the duping bug ain't even the only one of its kind. Relm sketch bug anyone? Odd that they both occur at similiar points in their respective stories, heh. ![]() As for SSBM, to be fair, I singled it out for its fanbase, not its mechanics, although again those are related facets. Anyways your comment about using the same strat makes me think of a SSB tournament vid where someone commented that Isia(sp?) was the only one doing anything fresh or new and everyone else used the same done to death pikachu. I hesitate to claim that about SSB though. Its got its kinks, but I still feel its much much closer to balance than SSBM was. edit: Notty, meh, that was a generalization to be fair. I feel tempted to support it still, but you have a point. edit: Other examples of player manipulation of the dominant strategy include shooters and sports games and their ilk. Thats why they never change. It is as someone here said, the players get a vested interest in whatever the current dominant strategy is, so they resist change. I'm even sorely attempted to apply this to economics. edit: One more edit! Woo! One thing about RPGs I want to point out is that I don't think they HAVE to be so strategy-less. If one borrowed a few mechanics from games such as strategy games RPGs could be enhanced to truely have gameplay. Granted, exp curves would artificially increase the slope of the learning curve and thus enhance the dominant strategy. Anyways, for instance, final fantasy could have rows and columns of monsters, and spells and skills could attack in various "patterns". Classes could have alot more situational skills that they can't always use or activate and alot more variety therin. More beat-em up rpgs like arcade games could borrow more from fighting games(something that is occuring, but at a very slow pace). edit: Back to Notty. Ahh right, I remember now. My counter argument to the claim of generalization is game theory itself. I think Prisoner's dilemma demonstrates what I say about the population to be true. At least the extrended version I always refer to. True, that doesn't really qualify as empirical evidence, but its true in theory. |
![]() |
|
| Drekal | Dec 28 2006, 08:00 PM Post #44 |
|
Birthday Ninja
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Games theory is actually a subsection of economics. Technically speaking. The point of the issue isn't really whether a game is any good based on dominance. The point is that it is bad design to have dominance, because it renders any other strategies pretty useless. There's a reason that the four white mage team in FF is considered a challenge: It's because it's a really hard game to play through. Thus, most people avoid it unless they are actively looking for a challenge, meaning it is a dominated strategy as it has no real advantages. Unless you count difficulty as an advantage which generally isn't the case within the context of design. RPGs in general are criticised by the book, interestingly. As are first person shooters. It really suggests taking old ideas and putting them into different areas, and trying to do new things, but those genres are fairly well understood and defined. Making it difficult (but not impossible) to do new stuff within them. I wanna see more games like Fahrenheit, where you play the role of two opposing people... Ooh! Come to think, I heard there's a Deathnote game in progress. If we're lucky, the designers will make it possible to control both Light and L! If I were on the design team, it would have elements of Phoenix Wright with the characters and setting of the manga... Although most of the scenes would be subtly altered, and I would allow a higher level of control over the direction of the plot than the final result might have. Sorry, got a bit off topic there... Although, if anyone would like to help me design that game, I'd be more than happy to work with them on it. Anyway. Just because FF has poor gameplay doesn't mean that it's a bad game. It would be a bad game if it wasn't any fun. |
That which holds the image of an angel...![]() Amy: You do have a plan, don't you? Doctor: Of course I do! New Objective: Think of a plan. | |
![]() |
|
| Juron Pilo | Dec 28 2006, 08:50 PM Post #45 |
|
Sage
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Just out of curiosity, why does design get all the credit? There is more to the creation process than just the design phase. These features I refer come from more than just blueprints. The way I see it and would code this is: "game" is the object, "gameplay" is the property, and "fun"/"not fun" are the values of said property. Thus, your logic confuses me. |
![]() |
|
| MFD | Dec 28 2006, 09:02 PM Post #46 |
|
THIEF!
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
And your logic confuses us all. This isn't really Game Theory. Let's not clutter up this thread. |
|
Oceans rise, empires fall I need to know If the world says it's time to go Tell me will you freak out? | |
![]() |
|
| Juron Pilo | Dec 28 2006, 09:09 PM Post #47 |
|
Sage
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Well, I AM heavily using jargon. This is a discussion thread so thats to be expected MFD. |
![]() |
|
| Drekal | Dec 28 2006, 09:12 PM Post #48 |
|
Birthday Ninja
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
But would you rather there was a game design thread, or that we used up the game thread to talk this through? It's not like any other discussions are going on in here at the moment. Also, designers take the credit because it's much easier to build a house when you have a building plan. Knowing in advance what is gonna happen makes it easier to create the game, and allows for changes in plan to be made. Sure, the programmers, artists, musicians, etc all have important jobs but wouldn't know what to do if not for the vision provided by the designer. |
That which holds the image of an angel...![]() Amy: You do have a plan, don't you? Doctor: Of course I do! New Objective: Think of a plan. | |
![]() |
|
| Juron Pilo | Dec 28 2006, 09:20 PM Post #49 |
|
Sage
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Well game design is loosely related to game theory, as has been previously stated, because game theory affects game design. I'll admit my question about accredation is arguably off track but it was more to the point of demonstrating a percieved definition flaw in your previous arguments. Not to criticize you, but I also felt the plug was a bit off track as well. Anyways near as I can see the conversation has reached a natural conclusion for now. Unless you have something further to add? |
![]() |
|
| Drekal | Dec 28 2006, 09:23 PM Post #50 |
|
Birthday Ninja
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Nope. Not really. Although if I feel that either of the design books I got hae anything that would probably be of interest, they'll be posted...somewhere. |
That which holds the image of an angel...![]() Amy: You do have a plan, don't you? Doctor: Of course I do! New Objective: Think of a plan. | |
![]() |
|
| Juron Pilo | Dec 28 2006, 09:38 PM Post #51 |
|
Sage
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I can't see talking about one without an occasional mention of the other. Maybe this thread should serve a dual purpose then. The topics ARE somewhat seperate, but not enough that they require two seperate threads, I think. Somewhat like engineering and philosophy as a whole. I dunno. Also this thread belongs in the Serious Discussion forum but that place is a graveyardX.x. |
![]() |
|
| ryu planeswalker | Dec 28 2006, 09:43 PM Post #52 |
|
Transcendent
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Perhaps you guys are looking at this in the wrong fashion. When I rate a game for hardness its always based off the first time through which is without strategy guides/FAQS or basically any of the BS that makes the game easy. Heck most of the examples of poor game design are caused almost directly by the existence of the Internet. Who here would have gotten Knights of The Round without an FAQ, or the Strategy Guide? |
| |
![]() |
|
| Juron Pilo | Dec 28 2006, 10:09 PM Post #53 |
|
Sage
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Didn't play FF7 so I can't say for sure and even then theres the matter of time devoted. A player could do the equivalent to taking a d&d 20 or something. Anyways, mechanics are my strong suit. In other areas of skill I'm mostly average to above average with probably a below average rating in depth perception. Poor example, but kind of a valid point. At least it would be if alot of tricks wern't so vauge, nonsensical, obscure, or reliant on random chance. One time events also can be pretty unfair. Usually theres no real clear way to tell whats the right answer to get the best item unless you know in advance. |
![]() |
|
| ryu planeswalker | Dec 28 2006, 10:15 PM Post #54 |
|
Transcendent
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
okay lets use the one you did. How many people would know about the Dupe glitch in FFIV without the internet? |
| |
![]() |
|
| Juron Pilo | Dec 28 2006, 10:19 PM Post #55 |
|
Sage
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Very few. Its obscure. A few would stumble upon it probably. I fail to see how difficulty has anything to do with this though. Little is required of a player at higher difficulties but better monitoring of healing and some good luck. Equipables don't even enter into it as that would be the very thing your taking away to restrict yourself. edit: in a normal gaming scenario there is something for a player to do to improve himself or his strategy from his end. RPGs offer very little opportunity for anything but gameplay stats to make a difference. Without anything to improve about yourself, there is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't abuse every opportunity available to you. This quality of RPGs is an seems to be an ASSET in the eyes of players, however. |
![]() |
|
| ryu planeswalker | Dec 28 2006, 10:22 PM Post #56 |
|
Transcendent
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
That goes from game to game JP. Theres quite the few final bosses that I was overleveled for and got raped because they spammed the HELL out of one status effect. Monitering and healing as needed is almost the same as Ducking behind a Barrier in Halo when your shields are down, or your clip is empty. |
| |
![]() |
|
| Juron Pilo | Dec 28 2006, 10:28 PM Post #57 |
|
Sage
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Yeah status effect. So you just reset and equiped a ribbon or whatever right? Thats patently unfair and annoying. And at least the situation you dredged up requires some... reflexes(well ok, usually). Anyways, I've discussed this topic before. My points havn't really changed. |
![]() |
|
| ryu planeswalker | Dec 28 2006, 10:34 PM Post #58 |
|
Transcendent
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Actually no I never actually found a bit of Equipment that prevented confusion. I loaded up on potions put my three highest defense characters in and healed whenever I got an action. *shrug* |
| |
![]() |
|
| mordain | Dec 28 2006, 10:35 PM Post #59 |
![]()
Codewalker
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Bringing up an old topic because of obvious interest. A Death Note game could be good, it could be bad. I can't imagine *just* playing L, and it would obviously have to be different from the manga or else there would be no point if you had ever read the manga. Changing the final result would definitely be interesting (I know my brain was spinning reading the last few chapters, but there are quite a few things that could be tweaked to change the outcome). Of course, it could be a completely different story from the manga, with different characters, which could be good or bad depending on the quality of the story... edit: oops, thought this was the Games thread... |
| Live and learn - or die and teach by example. | |
![]() |
|
| Juron Pilo | Dec 28 2006, 10:39 PM Post #60 |
|
Sage
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Meh the point was that it wasn't something you could really have known in advance, unless you were proficient in monster lore or it was a theme/plot accompanied boss(like say Edward against the Dark Elf boss). edit: baron'd here's that link I promised: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_development_process http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_Development_Life_Cycle These are seperate but related things mind. If you don't understand don't ask me to explain because it'll give you a headache. |
![]() |
|
| « Previous Topic · General Posting · Next Topic » |






![]](http://z4.ifrm.com/static/1/pip_r.png)






2:09 PM Jul 11