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| Free healthcare; STOP OBAMACARE says Mitt Romney | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 17 2012, 01:02 PM (443 Views) | |
| Scruff 815 | May 17 2012, 01:02 PM Post #1 |
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The Arbiter
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So having spent some time in the US, I couldn't help but notice that there's currently a huge argument about Obama's healthcare reform plans, in that he wants to bring in "free" healthcare. Apparently most of y'all don't want that. I'm not really sure why. Educate me. |
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| The Gengo | May 17 2012, 01:57 PM Post #2 |
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Captain
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Not sure if this is a valid response, as I am not answering the question of "why" Americans don't want "free healthcare". However . . . to be sure, the healthcare system as currently instituted in the United States is broken. Severely, fundamentally, and in all ways broken. There are many problems with it, so it would be hard to fix this "one thing" and everything would be great. One legal reason to be opposed to any healthcare mandate by the Federal government is the Tenth Amendment to the Constitution, which would squarely seem to place the authority for such legislation to be handled by each state individually. Abiding by that law, the best thing the Federal government could do would be to invoke the Interstate Commerce Clause to allow members of one state to buy insurance offered in another state (this is currently NOT allowed as far as I know). However, Federalism has been in decline for decades now (as we move toward a more Unitary form of government). As such, it is certainly NOT unprecedented for the Federal government to make this type of move (even if it still seems to violate the Tenth Amendment). Too many words to get to this: where do I stand on it? I certainly think something should be done with regard to our nation's healthcare system. As I mentioned before, I don't think (what has been termed) "Obamacare" did a good job. My wife and I were surviving on one income while I went back to finish my degree. Our health insurance premiums for two adults, two children actually increased this year. Despite being purchased through her employer (which is supposed to "buy down" the cost), our monthly premiums went from $900 to over $1,000). |
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| Scruff 815 | May 17 2012, 02:26 PM Post #3 |
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The Arbiter
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Thanks for the in-depth reply, Gengo. It's a very confusing issue for someone from a country where we do have "free" healthcare, that despite our occasional grumps about waiting times etc, really does work. Having spoken to an American guy who, after a severe motorbike crash, walked to the hospital to avoid a $2,400 ambulance ride, I don't understand why you (as a country) would want to continue paying for healthcare. That said, I don't know the ins and outs of "Obamacare". I have no idea how it works, how much it costs the average Joe, etc. For me, a free healthcare system means that you no longer pay for health insurance. Here in the UK our National Health Service is funded by National Insurance, which is a compulsory tax on income (or benefits), which is calculated differently depending on how much you earn but as a generalisation amounts to roughly 5% of a low-to-average salary. It's not a lot of money. Less than $100 a month. I saw some stuff about Catholic schools objecting to compulsory contraception when that's not what they're teaching but that's a whole different issue to saving the life of a poor 5-year-old kid with cancer who otherwise couldn't afford treatment. |
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| ASLANS R0AR | May 17 2012, 02:28 PM Post #4 |
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Spartan Pops
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I'm torn on this issue, having lived in Canada for 10+ years and experienced their form of healthcare, which is government run and funded (Bagel may be able to speak on this better than I can), see pros and cons with both systems. Our system is broken, but so is Canada's, but in different ways (probably true of all systems). Sure, we have all the latest in technology that is readily available, if you can afford it. Canada, by contrast, is pay as you can afford, with very limited technology and resources (doctor/nurse/technologies, etc.) I've known cancer patients that have flown down to the US for treatment (very expensive, out of pocket) b/c they would have to wait months in Canada for treatment, which might cost them their lives. For example, my wife's brother in-law in Vancouver BC was recently told by an ER doc that they're surprised he hasn't had a heart attack based on the blockages they see; But is there a specialist who can see him? no, not for a few weeks at least. Here in Louisville I'd get to see such a specialist probably the same day or next day and have all the latest technologies on my side (Hospitals in Louisville have a bit of a reputation, from what I can gather, as being some of the best in the nation for this). I'd probably be scheduled for a bypass surgery that week even. But, I'm on the cheapest option my company offers (about $540 a month in premiums) and still I have to pay a percentage of every service (until a deductible is met, which is I think $2500/person). I also remember a Canadian nurse telling me of the disgusting waste in the Canadian system; her hospital would build a whole new wing with state of the art technology but shut it down before it ever opened and never use it; they had to simply spend the money before the fiscal year ended or the government wouldn't give them as much next year! From what I can gather, Obamacare will force our premiums to skyrocket even more; I'm not sure what the answer is, though, I definitely see the value in helping those who can't afford healthcare, but I think that number will increase (or at least shift from the poor to the middle class) with Obamacare. I doubt the actual number of uninsured will be helped by it. I think Canada's system is better generally, BUT only if there were reforms to reduce waste and to somehow make it attractive to Doctors & nurses again (they were flooding to the US for jobs when I lived there) as well as make cutting edge technology more available. It was a great system for run of the mill needs, but I wouldn't want to be there with anything life threatening (e.g., my wife's brother in law). At the end of the day, I'd rather be in debt than dead, but it's a horrible choice to have to make. Edited by ASLANS R0AR, May 17 2012, 02:38 PM.
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| snickerdoodle | May 17 2012, 06:21 PM Post #5 |
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Just me.
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"Free" is misleading but that aside, "Obamacare" isn't really the right way to go, IMO. I wish they'd allow people to buy health care like you do car/home insurance. You want coverage for emergencies? Great, here you go! You want coverage for this, that, or the other? Okay, here's your quote! Dont' like that quote? Get it from another company. Also removing the "you can't be insured because you have this pre-existing condition" caveat would go a long way in getting a lot of the population insured, honestly. Aslans touched on a lot of my concerns with the "free" care in other countries. My family in France has experienced much the same thing with regards to specialists and the like. I dunno, it's a complex issue. Is healthcare good? Absolutely. Is it a fundamental right? I'm not so sure. Is it a constitutional one? *I* don't believe it is and I think forcing everyone to pay for something isn't quite right, especially when it's been proven to be less than effective in the US. |
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| SgtMaj AJJ | May 17 2012, 06:26 PM Post #6 |
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My wife is an RN specializing in Thoracic surgery recovery, currently working in Mental Health and Addiction rehabilitation. I work for the largest US based Health Insurance company. For the purpose of full disclosure, we're both of the more Liberal or Democrat persuasion. With as much espresso that I drink, you can call me a Latte` Liberal. "Obamacare" doesn't go as far to provide free Healthcare. Free would be something like Medicare for all. Even Medicare isn't free though.
The bulk of Health Care Reform (aka Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act) hasn't been implemented yet. Some considerations have; such as covering college age kids living at home, certain rebates/incentives, fraud waste & abuse measures. The biggest piece to be implemented by 2014 is the health insurance "Exchange."
Scare tactics from the Right (Death Panels, and other ridiculous nonsense) and the lack of a backbone on the Left, produced this hybrid Private/Public solution known as "Health Care Reform." HCR is laughable as the US does not have Health Care, it has Sick Care. Quality of Care hasn't been addressed, innovative care coordination models are in their infancy, unhealthy country (Read: Obesity). I don't want FREE health care in this country. I want an equitable system where everyone pays their share, and everyone can expect the same level of care. |
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| ASLANS R0AR | May 17 2012, 07:35 PM Post #7 |
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Spartan Pops
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I hope it works out that way, AJ. The thing is pretty difficult for this guy to understand. All I know is what hits my paycheck and from what our company's health insurance "brokers" are telling us, our premiums and deductibles are going up when Obamacare take effect. |
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| Scruff 815 | May 26 2012, 09:23 AM Post #8 |
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The Arbiter
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Thanks for the replies, folks, you've helped me understand this whole thing more. But not enough. What exactly is this healthcare reform doing if you still have to pay for health insurance? Surely healthcare reform removes the need for health insurance? How come you're still paying the same, if not more, when I'm hardly paying anything? In regards to waiting lists etc, I can't speak for other countries but in the UK, if you want to go to a private surgeon to expedite your surgery then you can; you can either sit on the NHS waiting list for 4 months with fully-paid sick leave from work, or you can fork out thousands of pounds to go to a private surgeon. But the option's still there. Surely that's the best of both worlds? Personally I do feel that healthcare for all is a basic human right. If Finland can consider BROADBAND a basic human right then surely equal access to healthcare is as well? I think the current "don't have money, then fuck off" approach is entirely unfair: Person 1, let's call him Tarquin, is born into a super-rich family. Being a super-rich asshole he never does a day's work in his life, and instead spends his day drinking booze and smoking crack. When his liver finally gives out, he throws his disposable money at the problem until he's better again, and then repeats the process for decades. Person 2, let's call him Gary, works two jobs at minimum wage for 30 years to support his daughter after his wife dies. With shitty healthcare he can't afford to pay for his daughter's treatment when she gets cancer. As a result he loses his house, his daughter dies, the stress causes him to lose his jobs, and left in a rage with his situation he blows up a government building killing 100 innocent people. If he'd had "free" healthcare, his daughter might've survived, and he wouldn't have had to work so hard to cover her medical bills, etc etc etc.. Ooh, controversial. |
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| ASLANS R0AR | May 29 2012, 05:21 PM Post #9 |
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Spartan Pops
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Scruff, would you say that the UK system is well-managed, as far as you can tell? (I have no clue or opinion on it, which is why I ask) You are right, I think, in positing the "best of both worlds," as long as such a thing could be reasonably funded & managed, something I DID NOT see in Canada. Edited by ASLANS R0AR, May 29 2012, 05:21 PM.
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| SgtMaj AJJ | May 30 2012, 05:01 PM Post #10 |
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Real reform would be "free" healthcare. Real reform would concentrate on Quality of Care, as opposed to Sick Care. Real reform would make strides to remove the profit from death, disease and sickness. The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act is not true reform, and should never have been branded as Health Care Reform. While it's debatable how far "free" healthcare should go, the fundamental right that should be in question is whether or not everyone has access to affordable healthcare. Either I choose to participate in the system and reap the benefits, or I don't. If I pay into the system, then I don't pay thousands for an ambulance ride and never need to worry how my illness, injury, what have you, is taken care of. If I choose not to participate in the system, then I should be required to pony up the full amount of cost incurred. I get access to the same hospitals, doctors, nurses, medicine, procedures, etc. Again, the system that facilitates care (Hospitals/Doctors, Insurance Companies) is debatable (subsidies for the Poor, to mandate or not to mandate, employer paid coverage requirements, etc). The ability to get to care is not, as it is a fundamental right. |
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| SgtMaj AJJ | Jun 28 2012, 04:42 PM Post #11 |
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This, made me lol. Interesting development that the SCOTUS upheld HCR. "Voting to uphold the Affordable Care Act were R oberts and Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Stephen Breyer, Sonia Sotomayor and Elena Kagan. The dissenters were Justices Antonin Scalia, Anthony Kennedy, Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito." |
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| ASLANS R0AR | Jun 28 2012, 05:03 PM Post #12 |
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Spartan Pops
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sounds like a landmark decision - I wait with cautious optimism to see how this actually impacts my paycheck and healthcare options that my company has down the road. I am certainly in favor of people having access to healthcare who can't afford it; I just can't afford to pay for it! |
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| Deadpool Psycko | Jun 28 2012, 05:07 PM Post #13 |
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The Meta
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Everything will always be touted as "The way to go" or what-have-you but it will undoubtedly be flawed in it's execution. Someone is going to get the short end of the stick while others will reap the benefits. Of the few things I got from peoples opinion of Obamacare, two friends of mine would not have been able to afford their treatments and eventual rising stacks of hospital bills. My friend whose wife had Lymphoma was told by her docter that she most likely wouldn't have made it on their salary. That's a pretty bold honest statement. I'm sure it's not perfect but it's something rather than being uninsured and having to pay an arm and a leg for a simple diagnosis. <---Canada here I come.. Edited by Deadpool Psycko, Jun 28 2012, 05:09 PM.
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| Lycan XIII | Jun 28 2012, 06:13 PM Post #14 |
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Doesn't surprise me...
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| Deadpool Psycko | Jun 28 2012, 06:25 PM Post #15 |
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The Meta
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Another reason why I don't pay attention to the news directly. You have to give 'em all like a day lee-way to figure out "OH SHIT! We fucked up..." |
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| Scruff 815 | Jun 28 2012, 06:45 PM Post #16 |
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The Arbiter
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Well.. my experience of the NHS is probably pretty limited compared to other people's. You might get a different answer from a cancer patient, say, but what I've experienced has been pretty solid. There are negatives; doctors will try and talk you out of surgery (but you can put your foot down), nurses are overworked and very underpaid, we've had issues in the past with MRSA (which has killed people) due to people not keeping things totally clean (probably due to the aforementioned overworked, underpaid staff), and waiting lists can be months long. Also, 99% of all dentists / orthodontists / opticians are private. But still, I have the comfort knowing that if, say, I get cancer, my wife isn't going to lose her job / our house / etc to pay for treatments. Moneywise, my basic pay this month (before tax) was £1570. £166 of that was taken off in income tax (which goes straight to the government), and £97 went on National Insurance (which encompasses my NHS payments as well as some other stuff). Those National Insurance payments work out to around £1100 a year, or about 6% of my salary. That's the same whether I'm perfectly healthy or on my deathbed (and if I'm too sick to work, either my work or the government foot the bill). Doesn't sound like that much to me.. And this is where I get confused: WHY ARE YOU PEOPLE STILL PAYING LOADS OF MONEY FOR HEALTH INSURANCE? I can't work out where the reform is AT ALL. To a confused Englishman like me, it sounds like nothing's changed whatsoever. |
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| SgtMaj AJJ | Jun 28 2012, 06:55 PM Post #17 |
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I smell the blood of an Englishman. It's reform from a delivery standpoint. I hope that makes sense. It's a reform of Insurance regulation rather than a NEW system that delivers FREE care. US- Insurance Companies UK- NHS FREE would be doing away with the current system. This reform is applicable to the regulations of the Insurance Companies. My brain is mush. 25,000 screaming 14 year olds and their FINE ASS MOMMAs have given me a brain hangover. |
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| ASLANS R0AR | Jun 28 2012, 07:05 PM Post #18 |
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Spartan Pops
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haha, get well soon, AJ! May the Force be with you ![]() Scruff, your system over there sounds very similar to what we experienced in Canada (which doesn't surprise me). As for the high costs, I can guess at why it's so high: 1) we live in an entitlement society (who doesn't?) that means many people go to the doctor or hospital for just about anything. Health Insurance companies are trying to put more responsibility on the insured person to only go when necessary. They have started using "savings account" options to help make this happen. If you go, you have a certain amount of $$ to use for it that is provided for you, and anything above that you pay out of pocket (until a deductible is met, then most, if not all, is covered) 2) Compared to Canada at least (can't speak to the UK) the US has a huge technological advantage - we have cutting edge technology and some of the best doctors & nurses, but all that has to be paid for (purchasing, research & development, etc.) Just my two cents on it! |
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| Deadpool Psycko | Jun 28 2012, 07:16 PM Post #19 |
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Well that's the issue here is that most Americans are impatient to the point that they'll say "Screw this!" to a waiting room and go to the ER for a fucking splinter. Then they wonder why they get a bill emptying their bank account for said splinter. |
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| PINK MIST PER0 | Jun 28 2012, 07:19 PM Post #20 |
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The Librarian
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As a person IN the healthcare field... who knows how screwed up our healthcare system is here in America... and who hears about this issue DAILY... I just want to say... ![]() I am so TIRED of this discussion... and I'm not going to write a whole page as to how I think the US healthcare system could be improved. Surely it's not because people abuse it in ANY way. (Especially with people all around me from Austin to Henderson who HAVE healthcare insurance screwing things up even more by going to a FREE clinic instead to get treated with their own insurance when they are sick, "because it's cheaper"... It's one of the reasons healthcare is so damn expensive to begin with nowadays.) Ok... feel free to continue this discussion... I've said my peace (for now).
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It's one of the reasons healthcare is so damn expensive to begin with nowadays.)

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