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The Dark Knight Rises Shooting
Topic Started: Jul 20 2012, 07:01 PM (432 Views)
The Gengo
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mr per0
Jul 25 2012, 05:30 PM
Just to add my two cents...
I don't think more gun control is the answer. The vast majority of people who use weapons illegally obtain them illegally. So to restrict my ability to get them would do nothing to deter gun crime. IMO, the answer lies in stricter punishments (add a mandatory 20 yr if a gun was involved or just go ahead and fry em') and in changing societal attitudes, which is hard. As long as TV, movies, games, and music continue to perpetuate guns as cool and awesome, and don't portray real consequences so they can wrap up the storyline in a set time, things will continue on the path they are on.

As far as the Framers intent, there is still debate on that. Yes, they did introduce a preparatory clause refering to a militia, but the operative clause refers to "the people" which means "everybody" anywhere else it is found in the Constitution. Rough drafts of the amendment referred to the individual right apart from militia service. Since then, the appointed interpreters of the Constitution, the Supreme Court, have upheld this as the valid interpretation. Most notably in "Heller v. DC" in 2008 and to a lesser extent "McDonald v Chicago" in 2010. I would, though, like to discuss machine guns with GW or Thomas Jefferson.

On a lighter? note:
the example of getting a gun in CO in 2 hours seems like they just went to an incompetent dealer. I have never waited more than 15 minutes from the time I said, check me out to the time I was leaving weapon in hand.

Texas seems to have few mass shootings. Why? We shoot back. The most famous was Charles Whitman, who barricaded himself in the UT tower and went on a spree, but was brought down by law enforcement AND civilians. Another example being the sep 28, 2010 active shooter on the UT campus. That one ended with only 1 dead (the shooter).
To be clear about my statement, I wasn't trying to say the Framers meant exclusively militia over individuals - I meant that that may be the only thing they would consider changing when presented with current events. Of course, I fully realize this is "playing tricks with the dead".

I also fully agree that guns, gun crime, and subsequent consequences are rarely portrayed with much accuracy in American media. Neither is vigilantism.

I disagree that stricter punishment would have an impact - again, just my opinion. Rarely do these psychopaths sit down to weigh the pros and cons of committing the violent act and getting caught. They either (a) understand the law, and plan their crime in such a way so that they commit it thinking there is a very low / zero chance of them getting caught - or (b) much more often they seem to not think about that at all. At this point they have broken their connection to reality so fully that they are incapable of understanding cause and effect in this matter - or they simply don't care about it.

Which leads me to the presence of more guns argument.

A lot of the "pro-gun" statements that I have been exposed to since this shooting (and after the ones in the past) is that if every single person in the theater would have been armed, the shooter would have either (a) been shot and killed before doing much (any) damage (I commented on how I thought this was silly in an earlier response) or (b) not have committed the crime for fear of (a) - which I just commented on in a previous paragraph in this response.

Aslan, I will add that book to my reading list.

And to be clear, I am not putting forth an argument for more / less control - I am simply trying to make as much sense as I can of both sides.
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ASLANS R0AR
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I'm trying to work through the issue, too, Gengo, and appreciate the friendly dialogue.

In response to your last post, when you brought up the hypothetical "psychopath" considering his course of action, I would just add that I wonder if our familiarity and "romance" (as has already been mentioned) with guns has made such disconnection with reality more and more easy and possible.

The relationship of guns to Americans is so ingrained, so part of our national consciousness and sense of "rights," it makes sense to me that such "disconnections" with reality are much easier in that climate than in a different one, one in which it is not so ingrained. It is part of the psychopath's subconscious as it is with many Americans; the only difference (to oversimplify) with him is that he lacks the ability to keep it in check. Perhaps for him the idea of taking the gun out of the drawer and blowing the neighbor's head off is on the same level as having an argument with the neighbor would be for me.

Not trying to justify the psychopath's behavior by way of "societal conditioning," or anything, but I think it is a factor.
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ASLANS R0AR
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Two interesting Developments:

Movie Massacre Suspect Sent Chilling Notebook to a Psychiatrist It sounds like this possibly sat in the mail room of the University for up to a week without being delivered. If true, there will be hell to pay I'm sure.

Obama Talks of Limiting Gun Use In Wake of Colorado Massacre From what I've skimmed of this, I am in agreement with the Pres on this one.
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Deadpool Psycko
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ASLANS R0AR
Jul 25 2012, 02:12 PM
SgtMaj AJJ
Jul 25 2012, 01:50 AM
On a somewhat lighter note- Bale visiting the hospital was a nice gesture.

I was thinking the same thing. I have a lot more respect for "celebrities" who go out of their way to mingle with real people and speak to our common humanity (at least in some sense).
I still give him gripe for that whole scene of him flipping out on the dude on set. This is why I don't get star-struck anymore. Celebs are no different than the average person - can be either super nice or super douchey. You can understand SOME doucheyness due to asshole fans but otherwise, they're just people.
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Deadpool Psycko
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ASLANS R0AR
Jul 26 2012, 02:03 PM
Two interesting Developments:

Movie Massacre Suspect Sent Chilling Notebook to a Psychiatrist It sounds like this possibly sat in the mail room of the University for up to a week without being delivered. If true, there will be hell to pay I'm sure.

Obama Talks of Limiting Gun Use In Wake of Colorado Massacre From what I've skimmed of this, I am in agreement with the Pres on this one.
Gun laws in this country are absolutely ridiculous. I'm all for freedom and the right to bear arms and all that jazz...but within REASON and RELEVANCE.

Outside of the Military - The United States SHOULD NOT have: Automatic rifles, armor piercing rounds, sub-machine guns...

Basically anything outside of your standard Hungting Rifle, Pistol or Shotgun. Guns don't kill people, stupid assholes who think they need a friggin arsenal, wheras all they do is waste money on ammunition they shoot at "Nothing", kill people.
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ASLANS R0AR
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Deadpool Psycko
Jul 26 2012, 02:06 PM
ASLANS R0AR
Jul 25 2012, 02:12 PM
SgtMaj AJJ
Jul 25 2012, 01:50 AM
On a somewhat lighter note- Bale visiting the hospital was a nice gesture.

I was thinking the same thing. I have a lot more respect for "celebrities" who go out of their way to mingle with real people and speak to our common humanity (at least in some sense).
I still give him gripe for that whole scene of him flipping out on the dude on set. This is why I don't get star-struck anymore. Celebs are no different than the average person - can be either super nice or super douchey. You can understand SOME doucheyness due to asshole fans but otherwise, they're just people.
I didn't hear about that, so I can't speak to it.

I am just pleased when celebs act like normal people (like this situation, at least), which speaks to a common humanity. I'm not under the illusion that Bale (or any other celeb) are awesome people. It's just that my expectations are so low (I expect shallow narcissism from them) that when, on the rare occasion that they exceed them and act "normal" I take notice.
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ASLANS R0AR
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Deadpool Psycko
Jul 26 2012, 02:09 PM
ASLANS R0AR
Jul 26 2012, 02:03 PM
Two interesting Developments:

Movie Massacre Suspect Sent Chilling Notebook to a Psychiatrist It sounds like this possibly sat in the mail room of the University for up to a week without being delivered. If true, there will be hell to pay I'm sure.

Obama Talks of Limiting Gun Use In Wake of Colorado Massacre From what I've skimmed of this, I am in agreement with the Pres on this one.
Gun laws in this country are absolutely ridiculous. I'm all for freedom and the right to bear arms and all that jazz...but within REASON and RELEVANCE.

Outside of the Military - The United States SHOULD NOT have: Automatic rifles, armor piercing rounds, sub-machine guns...

Basically anything outside of your standard Hungting Rifle, Pistol or Shotgun. Guns don't kill people, stupid assholes who think they need a friggin arsenal, wheras all they do is waste money on ammunition they shoot at "Nothing", kill people.
Floid, you just missed a lengthy discussion (above) about this. You might find it of interest.
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Deadpool Psycko
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The Bale Tantrum

Instead of flipping out like a 16 year old on her period, this could've been handled with much more decency. Just his over-reaction is unprofessional. Yeah, a guy walked in the backgroud and it can be distracting. Address it, move him and move on. This rant was just sad on his part.
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The Gengo
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Deadpool Psycko
Jul 26 2012, 02:09 PM
Gun laws in this country are absolutely ridiculous. I'm all for freedom and the right to bear arms and all that jazz...but within REASON and RELEVANCE.

Outside of the Military - The United States SHOULD NOT have: Automatic rifles, armor piercing rounds, sub-machine guns...

Basically anything outside of your standard Hungting Rifle, Pistol or Shotgun. Guns don't kill people, stupid assholes who think they need a friggin arsenal, wheras all they do is waste money on ammunition they shoot at "Nothing", kill people.

While I understand it, I disagree with this. I don't think its the gun laws, I think its the attitude toward guns. But that is a much deeper problem, and one with no readily apparent, easy solution.

The ONLY reason for a second amendment and a "right to bear arms" is to defend oneself from an oppressive government. The government wields a large standing army (which itself wasn't really intended) with automatic weapons, armor piercing rounds, sub-machine guns?

The people should have the same in order to defend against such a force and the possibility of it being turned against them (especially under the guise of being for their own good - to keep them safe).

If we had military numbers more akin to pre-WWII, and each state had a much more robust and independent National Guard (essentially a state militia) - we could have a much more honest conversation about the role of guns.

But starting in 1973, the individual state's governors began to lose control over their state's guard. In 2007, the President was essentially given full control of the National Guard of various state's and can treat them as another force to command - meaning, their role as militia has been usurped.



Interesting article about Switzerland: http://www.guncite.com/swissgun-kopel.html
Edited by The Gengo, Jul 26 2012, 03:51 PM.
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Deadpool Psycko
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To have it available for something of that nature of an oppressive government...sure, then I'd agree 100%. I don't see any logical reason for an average citizen to own something like an RPG in this country.

You have to admit there's a fine line between a collector and an excessive enthusiast.
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ASLANS R0AR
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Deadpool Psycko
Jul 26 2012, 03:32 PM
The Bale Tantrum

Instead of flipping out like a 16 year old on her period, this could've been handled with much more decency. Just his over-reaction is unprofessional. Yeah, a guy walked in the backgroud and it can be distracting. Address it, move him and move on. This rant was just sad on his part.
yep, that's crazy and immature. Someone was having a bad day!
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Scruff 815
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I will genuinely jump off the roof of my house wearing no clothes at all if you guys can all honestly tell me that you've never once over-reacted and snapped at someone unnecessarily.

The Bale tantrum should never have made the news. Because it's not fucking news. And the fact that ANYONE gives a shit about it is ridiculous. I don't care if my friends snap at people they work with so why the fucking fuck would I care about some dude I've never met? His job is to be good at acting and if he can do that, then I couldn't care less what he does in his private life, so long as he's not hosting KKK meetings or going around raping people.

Back to gun control plz...
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PINK MIST PER0
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Scruff 815
Jul 26 2012, 06:21 PM
I will genuinely jump off the roof of my house wearing no clothes at all if you guys can all honestly tell me that you've never once over-reacted and snapped at someone unnecessarily.


Yeah... about that. Don't ask Josh about what happened the first time he came over to my house... :bag:

ASLANS R0AR
Jul 25 2012, 07:16 PM
mr per0
Jul 25 2012, 05:30 PM
Texas seems to have few mass shootings. Why? We shoot back.
haha - you guys should have this as your state motto: "Texas: We shoot back."

Yeah buddy. We don't put up with that crap.
Charles Whitman Shooting at University of Texas at Austin

Scruff 815
Jul 25 2012, 07:32 PM

But then, I live in a country where we're not used to guns. The very idea of them is alien to me.

Scruff... Come to Texas. We will go out on our 7 acres and shoot skeet (after a detailed gun safety demonstration and lesson). You will LOVE it. ;)

Scruff 815
Jul 25 2012, 07:52 PM

Unless the government went around confiscating every single gun in the US, there is no way that stricter gun control could be implemented except for new ownership.

Yeah that will never happen as long as Texas is part of the US. (SHOTGUN!) That being said... we could always secede from the US again and be our own country. :D
Edited by PINK MIST PER0, Jul 26 2012, 07:54 PM.
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ASLANS R0AR
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Harry Reid: We don't have time to discuss gun control

better make time Mr. Reid!
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SgtMaj AJJ
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The Constitution was written 225 years ago. I don't operate my house or my life like it is 1787, so I'll never really "get" why the Bill of Rights, more pointedly the 2nd Amendment, is held onto with so much fervor. From my cold dead hands, I suppose.

The SCOTUS has ruled on and clarified the 2nd Amendment. I respect that.

Many individuals have firearms. I respect that.

A resounding majority that have firearms use them appropriately and responsibly. I respect that.


Can the Anti-gun and Pro-gun just meet in the fucking middle? I sure hope so. After all, not everyone with a gun is a batshit crazy fuckwad. And, not everyone that wants to put protection controls in place, wants to "Take Your Guns."

Limits on the type and number of guns purchased over a span of time is reasonable. As is limits on the amount of ammunition someone is able to squirrel away. As is the purchase method (unmonitored Gun Show vs tracked ID).

I'm not going into exhausting detail about how Gun/Ammo limits and tracked purchases would work, there exist some great ideas already and I'm just some schmuck without a gun. So let me just say... (note the age and gender can be replaced with anyone)

An 80 year old lady that uses Behind the Counter Sudafed. She presents a government issued ID and signs each time she purchases the ephedrine containing product. The Government is tracking whether or not she's building a WalMart sized supply of ephedrine to fuel her Methamphetamine drug ring.

Meanwhile, her 80 year old husband, buys an assault rifle from a Gun Show then hops online to purchase 12,000 rounds. All without an ID.

Just like granny isn't running a drug ring, gramps isn't building a militia. What's the harm in tracking gramps, if only to have a line of sight into what's being purchased to identify trends and potential misuse?
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Deadpool Psycko
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Scruff 815
Jul 26 2012, 06:21 PM
I will genuinely jump off the roof of my house wearing no clothes at all if you guys can all honestly tell me that you've never once over-reacted and snapped at someone unnecessarily.

The Bale tantrum should never have made the news. Because it's not fucking news. And the fact that ANYONE gives a shit about it is ridiculous. I don't care if my friends snap at people they work with so why the fucking fuck would I care about some dude I've never met? His job is to be good at acting and if he can do that, then I couldn't care less what he does in his private life, so long as he's not hosting KKK meetings or going around raping people.

Back to gun control plz...
Never in that degree. I've gotten mad and said my piece...but I've never gone to that length for more about 3 minutes.

And believe me, I can go on some rants. I agree though, I'm the first to say that celebs are like any other person. That could've been anyone. The issue was that it was him, if anyone should be mad, it should be the Director/Producer IMHO. He even asked McG and you hear him say "I didn't see it happen" - End of story.


Back OT?

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Deadpool Psycko
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@ AJJ - Again, I have little issue with someone owning a variety of guns as a collector. But people who purchase the excessive "war crimes" kinda guns and waste money on ammunition, upgrades, etc...that just irks me esp when the country cries about how broke it is and what they can do to cut people from buying stupid shit.


Solution? Stop SELLING stupid shit. However, that coincides with freedom of choice. I would certainly give up certain freedoms like that (b/c really, a freedom should be something respected, Not taken advantage of).

Again, if it's enough to protect yourself/familt I.E. - shoots, reloads, safety on/off - that should be it. As someone said, we're not exactly being oppressed by a tyranical government/empire looking to take our Everything away.
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ASLANS R0AR
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I agree with everything that AJ said above. Good post, Sarge.
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Deadpool Psycko
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I would assume the reason to track firearms more than prescription drugs falls under the "Means To Kill". Not the accidental harm it MAY do due to improper use. Guns are meant to kill.
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ASLANS R0AR
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Relevant - one of my favorite clips from UHF
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