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HISTORY IN THE MAKING 2008-2016

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We've spent a good many years discussing politics, life, society and history. Most of all, the makers of history. The great events that changed the world - people, places, actions. Small acts have changed its hard-worn course, and effort and circumstance can make of its small actors immortal greats. In line with that sentiment, it seems pertinent now to recognize the potential of those who've made up this community for years, obvious through their contributions to the spirited debate and discussion that has proceeded here. HITM has sadly gone silent, though perhaps not lacking for things to say about making history, but rather for the realization that it is time we all commenced to do so, and make our mark.

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Know Thy Enemy: Socialists
Topic Started: Feb 8 2010, 07:26 AM (731 Views)
Neitzluber
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LOL DragonLengends, you're so naïve if you think anything in the US government is based on ideological divides.

Follow the money.
Joe Lieberman is from Connecticut.
Aetna is headquartered in Connecticut.
Joe Lieberman opposes health insurance reform.
Coincidence? Hell no.

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DragonLegend
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Actually, I'd say the reason Lieberman was so stubborn is because he just wanted to stick it to the left. You know, they pretty much called him a traitor and did their best to destroy him after he endorsed McCain. And he agreed with Bush on a lot of things, too. He's an Independent now.

Heck, he actually said some time ago (way before the health care reform effort) that he was in favor of a single-payer system or a public option, or something like that. I'm not sure of that, though.
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Neitzluber
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DragonLegend
Feb 24 2010, 07:57 PM
Actually, I'd say the reason Lieberman was so stubborn is because he just wanted to stick it to the left. You know, they pretty much called him a traitor and did their best to destroy him after he endorsed McCain. And he agreed with Bush on a lot of things, too. He's an Independent now.

Heck, he actually said some time ago (way before the health care reform effort) that he was in favor of a single-payer system or a public option, or something like that. I'm not sure of that, though.
He's been an independent since 2000, I think.

He still caucuses with the Democrats.

I predict an overall decline in conservatism in this century, as baby boomers will die in the following two or three decades, and from what I've seen among young people, progressivism is the dominant mindset, and there are also a few libertarians here and there, but conservatives are hard to come by.


I predict the political debate in this country throughout the 21st century will be between progressives and libertarians.

Conservatism will die just like socialism died in the beginning of the 20th century.
Edited by Neitzluber, Feb 24 2010, 08:02 PM.
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DragonLegend
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The thing about conservatism and libertarianism, is that they're in the blood. Liberalism requires indoctrination, in my opinion. On the other hand, most people who leave their idealist, liberal college, get married, have a few kids, and get a job, they turn conservative. They grow up. They realize that life's not all sunshine and rainbows, that sometimes you win, and sometimes you loose. There's no room for idealism. There's no supporting tax increases. There's no wanting the government to tell you and your family what you can do or can't do.

That said, we really need education reform.

Oh and, Lieberman left the Democratic Party and ran as an Independent Democrat in 2007, and won, of course.
Edited by DragonLegend, Feb 24 2010, 09:22 PM.
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DragonLegend
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Survey: Support for Democrats crumbling among young voters

Told ya.
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Neitzluber
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Thanks for telling me Fox News is saying that, now I know for sure it is a lie.
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DragonLegend
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Neitzluber
Feb 24 2010, 09:18 PM
Thanks for telling me Fox News is saying that, now I know for sure it is a lie.
It's an Associated Press report about a study by the Pew Research Center. Neither is even remotely right-wing.
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Neitzluber
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Did you read the damn article, Dragon?

WASHINGTON -- Whither the American youth vote? A year after supporting Barack Obama for president by an overwhelming 2-to-1 ratio, young adults are cooling quickly toward his Democrats amid dissatisfaction over the lack of change in Washington and an escalating war in Afghanistan.

They're angry at the Democrats for not being progressive enough.

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DragonLegend
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Then why are they flocking to the GOP?

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While young adults remain decidedly more liberal, the survey found the Democratic advantage among 18- to 29-year-olds has substantially narrowed, from a record 62 percent identifying as Democrat vs. 30 percent for the Republicans in 2008, down to 54 percent vs. 40 percent last December. It was the largest percentage point jump in those who identified or leaned Republican among all the voting age groups.


Don't get me wrong; I'm sure are there are some Democratic youngsters who disapprove of the Democratic Party and Obama for not being leftist enough, or for not finishing things like health care already, but they're the minority among those young people dissatisfied with the Democratic leadership. Kids grow up when they realize the economy's down and they don't have a job.
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Neitzluber
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DragonLegend
Feb 24 2010, 09:48 PM
Then why are they flocking to the GOP?

Quote:
 
While young adults remain decidedly more liberal, the survey found the Democratic advantage among 18- to 29-year-olds has substantially narrowed, from a record 62 percent identifying as Democrat vs. 30 percent for the Republicans in 2008, down to 54 percent vs. 40 percent last December. It was the largest percentage point jump in those who identified or leaned Republican among all the voting age groups.


Don't get me wrong; I'm sure are there are some Democratic youngsters who disapprove of the Democratic Party and Obama for not being leftist enough, or for not finishing things like health care already, but they're the minority among those young people dissatisfied with the Democratic leadership. Kids grow up when they realize the economy's down and they don't have a job.
If the economy is down and they don't have a job, that's going to convince them of what?

For one thing, if you don't have a job, you're more likely to want more unemployment benefits and cheaper healthcare.

The conservative message doesn't resonate with people who have no money, unless those people are convinced via religion.
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DragonLegend
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Nope. If they don't have a job, they'll want the country's leaders to cut taxes so companies will hire more people. Democrats want to tax "the rich" to hell. "The rich" are the employers. When you tax them, they don't take it and say "Thank you, sir, may I have another"; they either lay off employees, or pass the costs on to the consumers, or both. Or, in some cases, move out of the country altogether.
Edited by DragonLegend, Feb 24 2010, 10:22 PM.
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Neitzluber
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DragonLegend
Feb 24 2010, 10:22 PM
Nope. If they don't have a job, they'll want the country's leaders to cut taxes so companies will hire more people. Democrats want to tax "the rich" to hell. "The rich" are the employers. When you tax them, they don't take it and say "Thank you, sir, may I have another"; they either lay off employees, or pass the costs on to the consumers, or both. Or, in some cases, move out of the country altogether.
Employers will employ more people if they NEED more people.

If they already have enough employees, you can cut taxes as much as your want, but they won't hire anyone else.
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Lazurath
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DragonLegend
Feb 24 2010, 08:11 PM
The thing about conservatism and libertarianism, is that they're in the blood. Liberalism requires indoctrination, in my opinion. On the other hand, most people who leave their idealist, liberal college, get married, have a few kids, and get a job, they turn conservative.
Why are we all of a sudden assuming that all Liberals are young, college students?
I could just as easily say, using the exact same points the you made, is the conservativism isn't something you really believe in, only something you try and convince yourself you believe since you now have a few kids and don't want anything to change too drastically in the future, but only because you have become too complacent in life and don't want that to change.




And yes, obviously the Democrats will be loosing support. That's one of the great (or worst, depending on your point of view) about bipartisanship. When Bush was in power, people became disillusioned with the Republican Party, and many members withdrew their support. Same thing's happening now with Obama. People are becoming disillusioned with the Democrats, and many people (including aforementioned young people) are withdrawing support.

It's the never ending cycle, really. If a Republican is in power, he's a Fascist. If a Democrat is in power, he's a Fascist. That's one of the reasons why I don't fully believe in any specific ideology.
Sefless protector
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DragonLegend
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Quote:
 
Why are we all of a sudden assuming that all Liberals are young, college students?


Not all. But, actually, only %20 of Americans identify themselves as liberal, and most of them are considered young (ie under 30 years old), if I recall correctly.

Quote:
 
I could just as easily say, using the exact same points the you made, is the conservativism isn't something you really believe in, only something you try and convince yourself you believe since you now have a few kids and don't want anything to change too drastically in the future, but only because you have become too complacent in life and don't want that to change.


Not really. Depends on what you mean by "change." Change for the better, nobody's against that. Change into more taxes, bigger government, etc., nobody but the statist liberals want that. I would say %90 of middle-class people don't want their energy bills increased by $2000 to fix an alleged problem that's allegedly killing the polar bears.

Quote:
 
And yes, obviously the Democrats will be loosing support. That's one of the great (or worst, depending on your point of view) about bipartisanship. When Bush was in power, people became disillusioned with the Republican Party, and many members withdrew their support. Same thing's happening now with Obama. People are becoming disillusioned with the Democrats, and many people (including aforementioned young people) are withdrawing support.

It's the never ending cycle, really. If a Republican is in power, he's a Fascist. If a Democrat is in power, he's a Fascist.


It has nothing to do with who's in charge; it's about what they do when they're in charge. The American people became disillusioned with the Republicans because, frankly, they were leftist (domestic policy-wise), and because of the way the Iraq war was handled in its early stages. Now the Democrats are being the same, except worse. Much worse.
Edited by DragonLegend, Feb 25 2010, 04:41 PM.
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