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HISTORY IN THE MAKING 2008-2016

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We've spent a good many years discussing politics, life, society and history. Most of all, the makers of history. The great events that changed the world - people, places, actions. Small acts have changed its hard-worn course, and effort and circumstance can make of its small actors immortal greats. In line with that sentiment, it seems pertinent now to recognize the potential of those who've made up this community for years, obvious through their contributions to the spirited debate and discussion that has proceeded here. HITM has sadly gone silent, though perhaps not lacking for things to say about making history, but rather for the realization that it is time we all commenced to do so, and make our mark.

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Great Moments in Bureaucracy
Topic Started: Mar 9 2010, 03:32 AM (563 Views)
DragonLegend
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Quote:
 


Those articles lists several 'facts', but no evidence. Their main source seems to be the Commonwealth Fund, a known progressive organization.

One other source is "researchers at the University of California at San Francisco who studied the matter", who say that the average wait to see a dermatologist is "up to 73 days if you live in Boston." Boston is in Massachusetts... where the health care system is single-payer/universal health care. How this is evidence against free-market health care, I don't know.

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3 MONTHS FOR MEDICARE PATIENTS?


Medicare is government-run...

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Canada averages 3 weeks for most surgeries and scans!


I repeat, in the US, it's almost immediate. If you have the money to pay for it, you can get anything done in the same week.

-------

I have to go now. I'll reply to the rest of your post later.
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Ww2nerd
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Scion of the Midnight Sun

I knew you'd deny the sources, as you always do.

Anyhow, your argument about socialized medicine makes no sense to me. Maybe once I state the problem I find with it, you'll be able to clear that up:

Alright. You argue Canada has terrible wait times. This has already been disproven. The average is 3 weeks, it is rarely longer than a week unless you are in a poor area of town or rural, and any emergency is dealt with immediately.

Now. The US hospitals serve patients, and they are selected in an identical fashion to one (well, I think the private system looks for bulky pockets, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt) another. The doctors admit the patients as things are made available if they are not in use. Pecking order is worst injured, first checked out, or at least, given the benefit of the doubt on part of the Private system.

The Government does not limit who is chosen for procedures, or how often they may be used. The Canada health act solely states that no PROVINCIALLY covered procedure may be billed to the client. It must be billed to the province.

Now, this is where I see the huge hole in logic.... if patients are admitted in the same way, without any impediment aside from how many people are there before them, how is it that the US facilities maintain these miraculous wait times?

Canada does not have any more of a shortage of devices, relative to population.

My basic theory, and I may be wrong with this, is that the US system works by keeping the poor away for non-emergency treatment. It doesn't work that way in Canada, and for the better. Nobody is left out of the system.

I'd like your explanation though, as I simply don't see how that works out otherwise, without excluding the poor.
Edited by Ww2nerd, Mar 11 2010, 12:40 AM.
"There are strange things done in the midnight sun,
by the men who moil for gold; the arctic trails have their secret tales that'd make your blood run cold...
the Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see...
was that night on the marge of Lake LeBarge, that I cremated Sam McGee."

- Robert W. Service
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DragonLegend
Field Marshal
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Debunked? You have the progressive Commonwealth Fund, some "researchers" at a university who attacked the single-payer system of Mass., and some statistic about waiting times in, as you said, Medicare, which is government-run. How exactly is this proof of how bad, or how long waiting lines are, in a private health care system?

In the US, if a doctor can't treat you right away, you go to another doctor or hospital. In Canada, isn't it the same every where? Don't they all work for the government? Doesn't the government/province decide when and whether you can be treated?

Besides, waiting lines are hardly the only problem with government control of health care. Canada seems to be better off than Britain, and if you like your system, I'm fine with that, but I don't think that system can possibly work in the US. Certainly not the system the current US Democratic leadership wants to impose on every one.
Edited by DragonLegend, Mar 11 2010, 07:31 AM.
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DragonLegend
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Oh... dear.
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Ww2nerd
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Scion of the Midnight Sun

DragonLegend
Mar 11 2010, 07:29 AM
Debunked? You have the progressive Commonwealth Fund, some "researchers" at a university who attacked the single-payer system of Mass., and some statistic about waiting times in, as you said, Medicare, which is government-run. How exactly is this proof of how bad, or how long waiting lines are, in a private health care system?

In the US, if a doctor can't treat you right away, you go to another doctor or hospital. In Canada, isn't it the same every where? Don't they all work for the government? Doesn't the government/province decide when and whether you can be treated?

Besides, waiting lines are hardly the only problem with government control of health care. Canada seems to be better off than Britain, and if you like your system, I'm fine with that, but I don't think that system can possibly work in the US. Certainly not the system the current US Democratic leadership wants to impose on every one.
Well... Doctors don't work for the government in Canada. If you had read those sources I posted, rather than rejecting them out of hand, you would know that.

And yes, of course a system like Canada's is not going to work in the US, or at least, what Obama is trying will not work in the US.

As for the guy in healthcare limbo: You have my own admission that Alberta is a bad place to be for healthcare right now. It is run by idiot conservatives who have single-handedly almost bankrupted the system by dropping the minimal fee that was imposed and not taking a fair share of oil royalties (Hooray for the Glories of the Free Market!).

And his government is not trying to bankrupt him. They have stipulations in their plan, the same as your private insurance companies do, for certain things. If his condition is not covered by the plan, it is not covered, simple as that. He can get private insurance in Alberta to shore up what isn't covered.... well, he could've before the tumor, at any rate.

Apparently it is not covered, so it's his unfortunate luck.
It is not them rationing Care, it's just how it works. If you wanted some surgeries from your insurance provider, they would reject your claim in a private system too as not covered or whatever else.

That article doesn't give enough details, it's obviously from a biased source, and it continues perpetrating the fallacy that government controls healthcare access here.

It doesn't.

And Legend, you snipe at the system. Overall, it rates higher than the US's, we spend less to maintain it, and ultimately, Canadians don't want a private system (That's what we moved from, after all. FYI: Your hero, Palin, skirted the border when she was younger to get herself some of that evil social healthcare)

I can snipe at yours too, for instance, the 45 million uninsured who can have their lives destroyed by debt if they get into anything bad, the natural denial of non-emergency surgery to the poor, and insurance companies declining surgeries which could have saved lives so they can save money.

I'm not saying my system is perfect Legend, but it's definitely not what you make it out to be.
You have my agreement, that in my understanding, what Obama is trying to do is stupid. It's one thing to care for 35 million paying slightly higher taxes. It's another to try that for 355 million who pay less. (Not by much, but US taxes are generally lower).

Look, I know why you like the private system, and all I'm saying is while it may work in the US, I would never wish it be visited upon the citizens of Canada. And given public polls, 86.7% of the population agrees with me.

Can we please just agree to disagree and move on with our lives?
Edited by Ww2nerd, Mar 12 2010, 12:26 AM.
"There are strange things done in the midnight sun,
by the men who moil for gold; the arctic trails have their secret tales that'd make your blood run cold...
the Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see...
was that night on the marge of Lake LeBarge, that I cremated Sam McGee."

- Robert W. Service
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DragonLegend
Field Marshal
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Okay...

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(That's what we moved from, after all. FYI: Your hero, Palin, skirted the border when she was younger to get herself some of that evil social healthcare)


I literally laughed out loud when I read that. That's the latest non-scandal about Palin. I'd debunk it for you, but, well, I think I'll pass this time. ;)
Edited by DragonLegend, Mar 12 2010, 04:08 AM.
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DragonLegend
Field Marshal
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Know Thy Enemy: Government-Run Health Care

President Obama is working really hard to enact a health care plan, and we all know this is just his first step towards complete control of health care by the government. Thus, I thought I’d send my crack research team to find out all they can about government-run health care.

FUN FACTS ABOUT GOVERNMENT-RUN HEALTH CARE

* The reason some think the government should take over health care is because they think health care is a right, but instead of an oppressive government infringing on that right, it’s economics and reality.

* Government-run health care is being pushed right now because of the crisis of the uninsured, a crisis America has been suffering for about 233 years.

* For a while now, Canada has had government-run health care, meaning the costs of health care have to be balanced with all other government expenses. Usually a hundred people are denied a doctor’s care anytime the curling teams need to purchase new stones.

* If you find yourself surrounded by government-run health care, don’t worry; it will probably just ignore you, even if you’re in need of emergency care.

* There are worries that government-run health care could lead to lower quality doctors, but doctors should be happy to work for lower pay as long as we can repeal the 13th Amendment.

* Proponents of government-run health care say that death panels will never become a reality… just as long as the bureaucrats running health care don’t realize, “Hey, if sick people just died, we’d save lots of money.”

* Wolverine’s self-healing ability was evolved in response to Canada’s government-run health care.

* Rationing could mean that people thinking of escaping a reality controlled by computers may no longer have the option of both the red and the blue pill.

* President Obama says having the government create the new entitlement of health care will actually save us money. This is because he plans to enact it on opposite day.

* If you think you see government-run health care killing people, don’t panic. Instead, just think of all the savings.

* Liberals want you to know that the government taking over 16% of the economy won’t affect your freedom. They also want to remind you that a happy attitude about it will be factored into rationing.

* The Clintons tried to enact government-run health care in the ’90s, but it ended up that half of the proposed bill were sketches by Bill Clinton of what the nurses’ uniform should look like.

* In a fight between government-run health care and Aquaman, Aquaman would die from being out of the water for too long while waiting for a simple blood test.

* Star Trek shows what a future of universal health care will look like. Basically, if you don’t get good care, someone will go back in time and retcon you out of existence.

* If given a chance, government-run health care will kill you, your family, and everyone you care about. Then again, it’s completely free.

* Despite all the changes, liberals will make sure the most basic right in health care won’t be affected: the ability of a trial lawyer to make millions of dollars in malpractice suits.

* Government-run health care is going to fix health care by making sure your needs are no longer determined by a heartless corporation but instead by a heartless bureaucrat who also has the power to imprison you if you don’t do as he says.

:good: :P ;)
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Lazurath
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From a Land Down Under
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They were exactly the same as the Socialist jokes.
Sefless protector
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DragonLegend
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Canada and Aquaman are included in most Know Thy Enemy's.
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Ww2nerd
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Scion of the Midnight Sun

It's because we aren't violent.

Just wait....

Oh, and legend: The Palin thing is right from the mouth of the serpent, so good luck trying to debunk that.
I have a TRANSCRIPT of her presentation in Calgary where SHE said that.

It's one thing to argue something that isn't true Legend, but she did do that, of her own admission.

Also: Did some research on Williams -
He's a multimillionaire, and conveniently, the surgery he wanted is the Miami protocol. Doctors in Canada have been trained in it, but care to guess where the guy who created it and is most experienced lives?

That's right. Miami. That's why Williams went there. As a general healthcare system, Canada is great, but hell, if I had the money, I'd go to the most experienced guy, especially if he was going to be poking around my heart.

Just like you want to go to Edmonton if you need the Edmonton Protocol (islet transplant with highest success rate thus far) you go to the U of A in Edmonton, and have it done by the guy who created it.

_______________________________________________
Oh, and I need to get this out of my system, addressed to all Americans who think we have government run care:

THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT RUN IT! THEY SIMPLY ACT AS AN INSURANCE COMPANY FOR PRIVATE PRACTICES TO BILL TO. NO DIFFERENT THAN YOUR PRIVATE SYSTEM, THE INSURER IS JUST DIFFERENT.

Thank you. That is all. [/rant]
Edited by Ww2nerd, Mar 12 2010, 11:53 PM.
"There are strange things done in the midnight sun,
by the men who moil for gold; the arctic trails have their secret tales that'd make your blood run cold...
the Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see...
was that night on the marge of Lake LeBarge, that I cremated Sam McGee."

- Robert W. Service
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DragonLegend
Field Marshal
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I've decided to debunk it. Just in case there were a few people here who don't already know the truth about the latest Palin non-scandal. After all, what is the point of this forum if the other side can't tell their side of the story?

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Let’s see how well this one follows the Palin “scandal” template. Step one: Some provocative yet murky detail emerges about something she said or did. In this case, that’d be her admission that as a kid her family once crossed the border to seek medical care for her brother in Canada. Step two: The media assumes the worst and beams out the shocking allegations. Can it be true? America’s conservative champion bypassing the 45-minute trip to Anchorage so that her brother could indulge in some freebie socialized medicine 15 hours away?

Step three: The truth. First, the full quote from her speech:

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“My first five years of life we spent in Skagway, Alaska, right there by Whitehorse (180km away. see map). Believe it or not – this was in the ‘60s – we used to hustle on over the border for health care that we would receive in Whitehorse. I remember my brother, he burned his ankle in some little kid accident thing and my parents had to put him on a train and rush him over to Whitehorse and I think, isn’t that kind of ironic now. Zooming over the border, getting health care from Canada.”


And then the inconvenient part:

Quote:
 
Little did these bloggers know that the source from which they were quoting either deliberately or unintentionally left off the fact that Palin clearly said that the story emanated from when her family lived in Skagway. Skagway is pretty close to Whitehorse [Canada]…

According to the summary of Canada’s health care system by Health Canada, it was only until 1972 that Yukon “create[d] medical insurance plans with federal cost sharing.


So the day-long Yukon trek to feed from the socialist trough turns out to be a short drive to a nearby hospital where they paid for the treatment. Given her age at the time, why this would constitute a scandal even if her parents had gone there for free care is beyond me, but per our template, “too good to check” is the guiding principle in all things Sarahcuda.


;))

PS: Rommel -- as Cow once said to Metis -- I would think this below you. You among all other should know these simple things about Canada's health care system, especially something as simple and important as the date it was implemented in Yukon, where the “scandal” happened.
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