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| 2. K-2 (Kiryu) vs. Mortis (Metatora) | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 13 2011, 12:07 AM (961 Views) | |
| EternalMothra | Nov 13 2011, 12:07 AM Post #1 |
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The Mothic Administrator
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Battle 2: K-2 (Kiryu) vs. Mortis (Metatora) Arena: Buenos Aires, Argentina (Day) |
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| KaijuCanuck | Nov 13 2011, 02:11 PM Post #2 |
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Game Master: Age of Heroes
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Hmm. I have a winner in mind but first I have some questions to ask of the competitors. 1. Metatora: What effect do Mortis's sonic attacks have on non-organics? 2. Kiryu: What kind of energy does K-2's shield protect? Could it guard against anything sonic? Right now it sort of seems that K-2 might be immune or at least highly resistant to most of Mortis's attacks, if only because its specifically said in Mortis's profile that one of his attacks is very effective against organics, but nothing at all is said about its effect on mechs. |
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| Kiryu | Nov 13 2011, 02:27 PM Post #3 |
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Ultradmin
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Yeah this fight is interesting, and I'd like some insight as to how effective they'd be against a mecha. As of right now, there's really no 'openings' to the inside of K-2 other than the mouth. The energy shield would block the physical beam carrying the sound, but I'm not sure at this point what the sound would do. However, there is the fact that sound travels 18,000 feet per second through steel (and I'd assume other metals). But I think to actually damage K-2's main computer, Mortis would have to get a very lucky shot. And unfortunately, even I don't know where it is. I'm torn between either the head or deep inside the chest cavity.
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| Metatora | Nov 13 2011, 08:15 PM Post #4 |
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Does this LOOK like the face of mercy?
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@KC: Why do you think K-2 would be immune to Motis's sonic attacks? Yes, he wouldn't be put off balance by them, but the damage they deal is still the same. Keep in mind that Mortis' sonic attacks tear matter apart at the molecular level, so the target really makes no difference, so the only attack that would not be of any real use is the sonic scream, but all of Mortis' other attacks are still on the table. Besides, the sonic scream is his weakest ability, so Mortis' really isn't going to be at a disadvantage for losing it. Plus, Kiryu brought up a good point, metal is a great sonic conductor, so really, all of Mortis' energy attacks are going to shake K-2 and cause extra damage. And Mortis dosen't even need to damage K-2's main CPU, he just needs to damage his body enough to make him stop working. And it's kinda weird how damn near identical their abilities line up. Their main beams both cause heavy damage, they also have smaller barrage weapons/attacks, they both have shields and K-2's armor would make a melee fight more or less even. So I think it's going to come down to who can outfight whom. K-2 is faster, but all of Mortis' ranged attacks are faster still. However, Mortis' saving grace may be that his attacks don't drain anywhere as much energy as K-2's do, so Mortis should be able to out-gun him. And I actually see the shield and Berserk Beam working in Mortis' favor, because if Mortis goes on the attack and starts hammering K-2, he would have to use the shield to prevent the sonic attacks from tearing him apart. However, by using the shield, K-2 wouldn't be able to shoot back with enough firepower to stop Mortis, as the shield uses a lot of energy, which would allow Mortis to simply blast away until it's over. So I think Mortis can take this, but K-2 could still win, depending on how cunning he is. |
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| Queen Bee | Nov 13 2011, 08:38 PM Post #5 |
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The Queen of all I survey..buzzzzz.....
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I agree that these 2 seem to be so similar in many of their abilities and this is really going to be a close battle, closer than many of the others.... I think K-2's shield may give him a bit of an edge. It is an interesting battle to say the least. |
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| Kiryu | Nov 13 2011, 08:43 PM Post #6 |
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Ultradmin
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Yes, I have to bring this up again with soundwaves. Everything that has cabling is usually protected. Granted yes, a mecha is very different than say a mic cable, so I'm not sure if a ground/shield would be present, but I'm pretty sure the coating would reject super-high frequencies, rendering two of Mortis' attacks almost useless. Hopefully by my next post in here I'll have studied that a bit, but yeah, that would be very problematic for Mortis if it's true. |
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| Metatora | Nov 13 2011, 09:03 PM Post #7 |
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Does this LOOK like the face of mercy?
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No, the armor would act as a resonator, due to it being made of metal, so the coating analogy is not quite accurate. And don't forget, the damage from Mortis' attacks is not based on sonic frequencies, but tearing matter apart trough vibrations and there really is no defense for that, save for the energy shield. So while K-2 might be immune to the sonic waves, the vibrations are still going to cause the same amount of damage. And on the shield thing, if I read the profile right, K-2 can't have it up for long periods of time, since it drains so much energy. So while it may provide some protection from Mortis' beam attacks, he won't be able to hide behind it for very long. And more to the point, while he's using the shield, he's using most of his energy, so he won't be able to fire his more powerful weapons, allowing Mortis to continue his assualt without fear of a real counter attack. Also, Mortis too has a shield he can use, and one that won't drain his energy reserves like K-2's. So it's not like he's not going to be able to defend himself from K-2 weapons/attacks, so I stand by my previous statements. |
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| Kiryu | Nov 13 2011, 10:46 PM Post #8 |
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Ultradmin
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Uh, soundwaves ARE vibrations. And frequency is directly determined by that. If I may quote my Audio in Media book:
Also, the shield will reflect the energy carrying the wave back at Mortis. From his profile, he's only immune to the sonic portion of his attacks, so it will do damage, albeit only as much as 75% of its power. And on another note, you seem hellbent that K-2 uses energy like there's no tomorrow. Yes, overuse overloads it, but the keyword is OVERuse. If K-2 wants to fire a barrage of Berserk Beams, so be it, but it'll run out of energy in a matter of minutes, so it better be SURE it can overcome its opponent in that time. Edited by Kiryu, Nov 13 2011, 10:49 PM.
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| Metatora | Nov 13 2011, 11:19 PM Post #9 |
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Does this LOOK like the face of mercy?
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You'd be right about the sound-waves, if they were normal, but they aren't. Also, it doesn't matter if the sound can't harm K-2, but the vibrations are literally going to tear him apart if his shield isn't up. But looking at it, maybe I should change the name of Mortis' attacks to "virbro-beams" or something, to clear up the constant confusion of his powers. Also, I didn't mean to imply that K-2 would run out of energy fast, it's just his profile says that the shield is "very draining" so I assumed that he wouldn't be able to use it and his beam attacks at the same time, or have it up for the whole fight. So I still stand by my previous points about the shield. And no, the bounceback won't harm Mortis, re-read the profile segment:
All of his main attacks cause "splash damage" due to their nature, even more so at melee range, so the fact the Mortis can fire his energy attacks at such close range without fear does mean that he's immune to his own attacks. |
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| Kiryu | Nov 14 2011, 02:43 AM Post #10 |
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Ultradmin
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The soundwaves themselves are normal. You said in the last fight the energy of the beam is what carries it at a faster speed. You CANNOT have vibration without sound. To do so would mean you are deaf. I DON'T care if Mortis can eventually overpower K-2. I DO care about people not knowing how sound works.
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| EternalMothra | Nov 14 2011, 06:06 AM Post #11 |
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The Mothic Administrator
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After reading the exchange here nobody has really brought up the fact that K-2 has diamond plated armor. Diamond is (last I checked) the hardest substance on Earth, I really don't think vibrations created by soundwaves from Mortis are going circumvent the outer plating of K-2's body. Now if they diamond-plating wasn't there then yeah, that may be an issue. |
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| Metatora | Nov 14 2011, 11:12 AM Post #12 |
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Does this LOOK like the face of mercy?
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@Kiryu: I DO know how sound works, it's just that Mortis' beams are far more potent than regular sonic energy. Meaning that they can can bypass the regular limitations of sound (like being able to travel at hypersonic speeds) through brute force, so the sound waves and vibrations are that much more powerful. Also, you CAN create vibrations without sound, as kinetic force will also cause vibrations. But that's a moot point, just wanted to point it out though. @EM: Yes, diamond is HARD, but far from unbreakable. In fact, a regular hammer can shatter diamond without much effort, so Mortis should have no problem getting past K-2's diamond armor. Also, his sonic beams might vibrate it enough to shatter it and if not, his sonic shake will, so K-2 is not going to be immune to Mortis' attacks. And on that note, I think I need to explain how Mortis' beams work. I based them on the concept of real life accousitc weapons. Now before anyone says "But that's a non-lethal weapon!" let me explain further. The weapon can cause bones to resonate, which means they're being vibrated. This means that the waves pass through an object and shake it. So, amp the concept up to a kaiju-level scale, condense the waves into a beam instead of being omni-directional and what do you get? A beam of energy that's literally going liquefy and/or break whatever it hits, because the force behind them is tens-of thousands of times more powerful than normal, it doesn't matter if the target is organic or not, the vibrations are more than potent enough to get the job done. Sure, K-2 won't be liquefied due to him being made of metal, but he's still going to get shaken by more than enough force to cause considerable damage, and again, metal is a great conductor for Mortis' beams. Now, this doesn't mean that Mortis' beams are going to kill another kaiju in one hit or anything, but they ARE going to damage damn near any foe that gets hit by them, which is why I picked them as his weapons, because you really can't stop an attack of sound/vibrations of this caliber. But moving on, I'd like clarification of how K-2's shield works. How much energy does it use? And can he fire back while using it? I'm sure he can still fire his missiles while using it, but would he be able to fire his beam attacks while the shield is up? Because if not, then he's going to be at a disadvantage because the shield only stops energy, and I think Mortis is strong enough to win a melee fight with him, even with his armor. And the second the shield drops, Mortis would have a clear shot while K-2 is charging his counter-attack, leaving him wide open. |
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| Kiryu | Nov 14 2011, 11:26 AM Post #13 |
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Ultradmin
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I'm well aware of the use of sound as a weapon, I just want to drop the debate on whether it's the sound or vibration, because they are the same; there's just frequencies we/other things can't hear or completely block out all together due to our psychoacoustics. On the shield, K-2 has a separate energy supply specifically for that. It's about a quarter of its total energy, and only ever used to bring up the shield. So yes, K-2 can fire beam weapons while the shield is up, the energy usage only affecting the shield. That's how it's so draining to use it. Edit: I tried to find something about how diamond reacts to sound, and I've come up with a whole bunch of nothing. Really the only thing that can truly stop a soundwave is the absence of molecules to vibrate. Essentially, only space will sound not work. Edited by Kiryu, Nov 14 2011, 08:30 PM.
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| EternalMothra | Nov 14 2011, 11:07 PM Post #14 |
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The Mothic Administrator
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But if you hit a diamond with a hammer, you're hitting it with a blunt metallic force. I don't know I feel that hitting something with another solid force like that is a different form of breaking than with vibration. At least it seems that way to me. Vibration not only vibrates in outer part of the diamond, but I don't feel that it would have enough force behind it to significantly cleave the entire gem. It just doesn't seem logical. If you can prove me otherwise definitely do so. |
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Click my signature to read my latest fan fiction in progress, picking up where Godzilla vs. Destoroyah left off: ![]() Signature a courtesy from Kiryu. | |
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| Queen Bee | Nov 14 2011, 11:38 PM Post #15 |
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The Queen of all I survey..buzzzzz.....
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With all of the bantering about how sound works and how the shield works, I'm not closer to being convinced one way or the other as of yet. I'll have to re read over the profiles to see if I can come up with who I think will come out on top....thanks guys for trying to clear up issues as they arise. The 'controversy' just shows you have faith in your kaiju and we have the interest..
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| LordNidhogg | Nov 15 2011, 04:54 AM Post #16 |
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Lord of Overkill
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Wow...ok guys, I can tell you're into this one. That's good, I approve. But I have comments (nah, really?). Comment the first: Kiryu...sound and vibrations are not exactly the same. It's kind of a "square is a rectangle, but rectangle is not a square" kind of thing. Yes, vibration does create sound...but not all vibration qualifies of sound, per say. Things vibrate silently all the time, because the "pitch" of the vibrations is well outside of what anything can hear. So, yes, vibration=sound but not always, since sound is a specific type of vibration that is audible. I suppose that in the realm of what is theoretically possible or in fiction, all vibrations could be heard...but things like black holes and atoms vibrate, and I don't think anything can hear them or is capable of hearing them. So it's really a moot point, since both sides are pretty much right. Though I will point out that since Mortis is capable of accelerating sound well above it's physical limit, trying to classify it according to the real laws of physics is kind of an exercise in futility. Comment the second: Metatora is right about sound tearing things apart, especially with the admittedly ridiculous (not in a mocking way, mind, just according to the real world) ability to push sound past the speed of sound. However, it may or may not be as useful as Metatora is suggesting. K-2's shielding would give him some protection; mechanical things are universally guarded against unwanted vibration, which causes a lot of problems for anything mechanical. Now, I fully believe that Mortis' attacks are above the threshold that K-2 was built with...but it would keep Mortis' attacks from being fully effective. That being said, the sound attacks would be a lot more dangerous to a machine than an organic. Why? Organics are flexible; their squishy build (compared to machines) allows them to take much more vibration than a machine without as much damage. I'll get to that in my next point. Speaking of which... Comment the third: machines don't take damage as well as organics. It's true. You may think: "What? But machines are made of sterner stuff that we squishy organics." That's true. But the mechanisms that allow them to move and such are a big weakness. If you break someone's arm it's going to hurt like hell, but if they can fight through the pain they can still use their arm, albeit with a lot less strength and prowess than before. Now look at a machine: if you break one of the hydraulics that moves the arm, what happens? That arm is dead. Outside of flinging it through a violent movement of its whole body, that arm simply isn't going to do anything until it's repaired. That's a weakness that can't be ignored. If K-2 lands a good hit on Mortis, he'll weaken him and reduce his fighting ability, but he won't stop him. If Mortis damages K-2 significantly, he has a good chance of literally stopping him from using one of his weapons or limbs or such. Against an organic opponent, Mortis would be less effective, still effective mind, just less so. It's like a glass vs jello (highly exaggerated, I know). If you vibrate the glass just right, it will shatter. If you vibrate the jello it...wiggles fiercely. So Mortis could disorient an organic foe, but the damage would be lessened quite a bit. Plus I'd like to point out that Mortis' weapons aren't that powerful, since he's immune to them. Things that are truly powerful have no immunities associated with them. So anything durable enough, say along Mortis' own durability, would be significantly less damaged. They may not have the specific protection against vibration that Mortis has, but they could weather his attacks in a way that Mortis probably couldn't predict. This is kind of a tangent, I know, but Metatora is making very strong and passionate arguments that Mortis' attacks will tear matter apart at a molecular level. That is true, yes, but it's not like he's atomizing anything, he's just shaking them until friction overcomes the major forces holding his foe together. It's a damn effective weapon, but not a perfect one. Comment the fourth: Resonance. Yep. See, vibrations are most effective when they resonate perfectly. It's not even really how intense the waves/vibrations are, it's based mostly in resonance. Mortis could hit them with a sound wave so powerful it would turn them to dust, but if the resonance isn't right it will only be a fraction as effective. That means that Mortis would have to know his foe's resonance. Since he doesn't seem to have an intuitive sense to do that, he's kind of at an immediate disadvantage. Vibration isn't like heat, where the effect is very similar no matter what the target. That means Mortis would have to experiment to see what worked best. Some of the basic effects probably wouldn't change; the pain and disorientation he can cause would always happen, though to different levels based on how close to the resonance of his foe he is. But the tearing apart matter at a molecular level? His attacks are definitely capable of doing that, but the execution would have to be perfected. And blunt experimentation would not work well: if he combined frequencies they'd limit they're own effectiveness by cancelling out portions of each other, or they'd resonate with the environment and lose some of their punch. Wow...sorry for that wall of text, but this is an interesting debate and I really wanted to contribute some of my thoughts. Right now I think Mortis has a slight edge, but it really depends on how fast he can "tune" his attacks. If K-2 can hit hard enough during that early period he'll win, but Mortis has a bit of an advantage once he finds the sweet spot for his weapons. It's a tossup for me right now, and I'd like to see more debate. |
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| Kiryu | Nov 15 2011, 12:15 PM Post #17 |
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Ultradmin
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You bring up some good points, and yes there can be vibration devoid of sound, but we were more discussing sonic vibration, which is what Mortis uses. And really, in this fight, Mortis doesn't even have to use anything to accelerate the waves; once they hit and some of the force enters K-2, they're traveling extremely fast. But, there's also the fact that K-2 isn't completely hollow, allowing for a really poor reverberant space once the sound is inside. There's wires, bones, other layers of metal plating sure, but there's just a lot of obstructions. I've done a whole mess of debating, and I still can't find a clear winner. Edit: There's also the factor of how the waves in Mortis' attacks would interact with K-2's own circuit noise. It might be a moot point, but I'd just like to know. Edited by Kiryu, Nov 17 2011, 10:14 PM.
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| EternalMothra | Nov 19 2011, 05:25 PM Post #18 |
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The Mothic Administrator
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I'm still leaning toward K-2. Despite this whole vibration/sound debate, there is no justification that K-2's weapons wouldn't be able to damage Mortis. From the looks of it, his only offensive capability revolves around sound mainly and I don't think that's going to destroy K-2 instantly. Regardless how it effects him vibration/sound damage will take awhile to beat him down because of (like Kiryu said) his internal components making his inside a poor reverberative location. |
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| LordNidhogg | Nov 20 2011, 04:17 AM Post #19 |
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Lord of Overkill
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I would have to disagree. Saying he'd take less damage because he isn't hollow is, well, wrong. His armor wouldn't take as much damage, yes, but his vital insides would. Like I said in my first post, machines can't "fight though pain" or anything when they get damaged. If something is broken, it simply doesn't work. That's why I think Mortis has the advantage: both will be dealing heavy ranged damage to each other, the difference is that while Mortis' fighting abilities will become weaker and weaker, there's a good chance that K-2 will just stop working with a good hit. Plus, I'd give Mortis a pretty good advantage in melee. It's close, but Mortis has enough of an edge to win, I think. |
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| KaijuCanuck | Nov 20 2011, 01:31 PM Post #20 |
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Game Master: Age of Heroes
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I'm going for K-2 as well. The whole debate has been centered on the sound attacks (possibly started by me), and since that is just a giant steaming plate of controversy I'm going to step away and look at everything else. To which end, Mortis really doesn't have much. So K-2 it is. |
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| Metatora | Nov 20 2011, 01:53 PM Post #21 |
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Does this LOOK like the face of mercy?
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KC, I'd like clarification on why Mortis "doesn't have much" He's stronger, his weapons are still very effective, plus, K-2 prefers melee, which plays to Mortis' favor. Not to mention that Mortis is also capable of blocking K-2's attacks, so I still think Mortis should win here. |
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| Kiryu | Nov 20 2011, 03:14 PM Post #22 |
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Ultradmin
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Nidhogg definitely hits the nail on the head about machines vs organics. But that alone doesn't give Mortis an automatic win. He still has to either a) hit an exact spot or b) shoot K-2 with enough sonic energy to override its circuit noise and render it nonfunctional. At the same time, K-2 will be blasting Mortis with its own weapons, causing a lot of damage to Mortis and giving him a good run for his money. I don't know, it's my own kaiju, but I'm really leaning towards abstaining. Neither side is convincing me more. |
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| LordNidhogg | Nov 20 2011, 04:18 PM Post #23 |
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Lord of Overkill
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I actually really doubt Mortis' sound will have much effect on the circuits, honestly. Now the gears and servos? Definitely. The vibrations caused by Mortis' sound attacks will cause massive friction and unsafe movement directions in all of K-2's moving parts, which is dangerous. It's even more dangerous if K-2 is moving at the time, since that wold dramatically increase the unsafe movement and vibrations in his moving parts. Does this give Mortis an automatic win? No. Both kaiju are pretty much equal in terms of ranged abilities. In melee, I'd give Mortis a little bit of an edge because of his size, but again they're pretty close. It really just depends on who hits where first. If Mortis can disable on of K-2's limbs, that could be the deciding factor. But if K-2 blinds or maims Mortis, that could also decide it. I'm leaning Mortis at the moment, but I could be swayed either way. |
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| Kiryu | Nov 20 2011, 05:30 PM Post #24 |
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Ultradmin
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Oh, I wasn't talking about damaging the circuits, I was talking along the lines of all machines produce their own noise, so who's to say Mortis will get really unlucky and his waves match the frequency of K-2's circuit noise, which would then cancel each other out? The whole idea of this perspective came from my instructor recording circuit noise of a 192 interface in a loop recording demonstration. But in terms of sheer mass, Mortis does have an advantage in a melee situation. That and he can repel K-2 if need be. I don't know, I think I'll see what happens in the dice rolls. |
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| EternalMothra | Nov 20 2011, 07:26 PM Post #25 |
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The Mothic Administrator
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Question: Would Mortis sound capabilities be anything like Megaguirus' sonic abilities? |
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I'm torn between either the head or deep inside the chest cavity.





8:34 PM Jul 10