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| 2. Riott (LordNidHogg) vs. Mortis (Metatora) | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 7 2011, 07:53 AM (1,229 Views) | |
| EternalMothra | Dec 7 2011, 07:53 AM Post #1 |
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The Mothic Administrator
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Battle 2: Riott (LordNidHogg) vs. Mortis (Metatora) Arena: Mount St. Helens, Washington; USA (Day) |
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| Metatora | Dec 12 2011, 09:08 AM Post #26 |
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Does this LOOK like the face of mercy?
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It's a bit of both. The sheer intensity of the scream causes extreme pain and disorientation, much like very loud noise would to a human. Though the effectiveness depends on how far away the target is, but that's why it's such a great melee counter, as it would give Mortis several moments to attack with total immunity.
I'd agree, but since jets are not very good at making sharp turns, even at lower speeds, I just don't see Riott being able to make a sudden U-turn. Plus the sonic bullets are faster then he is, giving Mortis some room for error. Also, Mortis doesn't even need to fire if Riott is too far away, so he can just wait until he gets close enough to start shooting, and since Riott isn't one to shy away, I do in fact see him getting hit.
Mortis is also smart enough to not let your opponent get behind you, and while Riott is faster in the air, Mortis is still more than quick enough to avoid letting Riott get behind him.
And Mortis is just as capable of liquefying Riott's tendrils via sonic attack, plus Mortis knows to protect his throat. Also keep in that Riott is a lot shorter then Mortis is, so he has to either jump or try to climb to get to Mortis' head, both of which are dangerous because there's a good chance he'll get hit by either a sonic shake or scream.
Or, Mortis could simply tear a chunk of earth and toss it, and breaking the chunk Riott was carrying, he wouldn't see it coming. And Riott being unable to see Mortis, even if for a short time is dangerous, as Mortis could zip up, daze him and start tearing him apart. |
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| LordNidhogg | Dec 12 2011, 12:52 PM Post #27 |
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Lord of Overkill
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Ah, right. Ok, now I'm pretty sure it won't be as effective as you say, and here's why: Riott is able to take things like reentry (which is prety damn intense, sonically speaking) without blinking. I am in no way arguing that that makes him immune to Mortis's sonic attacks; I know that they will still affect him. However, the effect will be dampened. Also, pain. Riott is good at dealing with pain. Enough will still cause him issues, of course, but he can deal with a lot. However, here's the thing that really, really matters: Riott can literally control his senses. His brain is in every part of his body, and he can control what he's doing, and to some extent what he feels. He can't totally turn everything off, but he can lower his senses if it will help him fight better. So if the frequency is causing him problems because of his hearing, he can reduce it. If he's feeling enough pain that it's hindering him, he can soften it. So if Mortis is relying on stunning Riott to win, he's in for a bit of a surprise. I'm not sure if you're talking about the plane, or jets in general. Either way, your argument has the same problem: they have fixed engines. Riott has engines not just fixed to his back, but also on his limbs. If you've ever seen Iron Man, Riott is a bit more agile than that (due to him being durable enough to withstand the g-forces of sharper turns and such), which is quite significant. I don't think smarts factor into it. In this comment: you mention that Mortis is a lot bigger. That's why Riott, even in melee, will stay airborne. It gives him greater agility, excellent for zipping around your opponent, and lets him strike at better regions than Mortis's crotch (not sure how effective a good old-fashioned groin attack would be... ). Mortis may be smart enough to know that an opponent getting behind you is bad, but Riott is fast, extremely flexible and agile (more so at the lower speeds he'd use to maintain melee), and he's smaller than Mortis which gives him an additional advantage: he can simply dodge Mortis's large and comparatively slow limbs.You also keep saying that Mortis is going to break or liquefy Riott's tendrils. We've been over this: they're extremely durable to begin with, and even if Mortis does manage to do one of those things it will be mere seconds before they're good enough to strike again. So no matter what Mortis does in melee, assuming he doesn't manage to badly stun Riott (which I see as unlikely both because of Riott's durability, agility, intelligence, and physical control over himself), he's going to be taking some very nasty cuts and stabs (stabs less likely because Riott will figure out that the sonic shake makes slicing more worthwhile). That's a good point, actually. Though I will point this out: whatever you think of jets' agility, they accelerate much faster than wings. So Mortis may "zip up" there, but he'll do it slower than Riott is moving (even counting the hit to speed that Riott will take from getting hit by a chunk of rock), reducing the threat of such a counter somewhat. |
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| EternalMothra | Dec 12 2011, 01:22 PM Post #28 |
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The Mothic Administrator
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*cries* Why must you both have amazing arguments? I can't decide...=[ |
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| LordNidhogg | Dec 12 2011, 07:24 PM Post #29 |
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Lord of Overkill
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I just wanted to clarify something about Riott's level of control: he can reduce his senses, not turn them off. So pain and disorientation and stuff will still affect him, just not as much. Mortis's attacks would probably have 60-70% of their normal effects. Also, just because he can reduce pain does not mean that he won't be taking the damage he would otherwise; any physical damage will stay until healed, assuming he can do so. |
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| Metatora | Dec 12 2011, 07:27 PM Post #30 |
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Does this LOOK like the face of mercy?
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But keep in mind that the sonic attacks Mortis has are ten of thousands of times stronger than normal sound. So even re-entry is not as loud as what Mortis is capable of producing with his sonic scream and sonic bullets. So yes, Riott is still going to get dazed when he gets hit.
That's great, but high frequency sounds, even ones you can't hear can be lethal, so "turning off" his hearing isn't going to do Riott much good.
Didn't you and I have this exact same argument last year? LOL. Yes, Riott would be able to turn faster than a normal jet, but in order to do that, he needs to overcome his momentum and at mach 7, that's a lot of force to overcome. And while I'm sure he can do this fairly fast, he's still not going to be able to do any sharp turns.
And I disagree. Mortis knows better than to let anyone get behind him like that, and he's fast enough to not let it happen. So Riott would have a hard time attacking Mortis' blind areas, even more so considering he can't make sharp adjustments at or near top speed. Plus, it's not going to be hard to keep an eye on Riott, in the air or on the ground, he's that giant monkey with built in jets
Yes, Riott is smaller, but Mortis can easily stop Riott by picking him up and tossing him away, using his shield to put him off balance, or blasting him. Plus, the second Riott hits him, the sonic shake could come into play, and that would hurt Riott a lot, even if Riott managed to climb onto Mortis' back. As the sonic shake affects anything touching Mortis. Also, if Riott is in the air while fighting Melee, then in order to be effective, he'd have to be moving slow enough to turn fast. Which would give Mortis a great shot with his Hypersonic cannon. And like Kiryu mentioned, he can fire it for up to a full minute, which would inflict a hell of a lot of damage if Riott took the full blast. And while Riott is tough, I just don't see him being able to shrug off a full minute of that kind of punishment.
Stabs or slices don't matter, because the sonic shake affects anything touching Mortis, so as long as contact is made, Mortis can hit Riott with the shake and cause severe damage. And I'm sure Mortis is more than durable enough to survive long enough to do that. And again, the sonic shake is meant to break a kaiju's bones, so the tendrils, even if they are as durable as Riott, are not going to be able to take a hit from that. Sure, they can reform, but in those few seconds that they're gone, Mortis can either push Riott away or blast him with a more powerful attack. So my point still stands. Plus, unlike say, Arana, Mortis is a juggernaut of a kaiju. So it stand to reason that he is fully capable of winning a melee brawl with Riott. Sure, Riott is a bit stronger and faster. But Mortis has the experience, intelligence, and his sonic powers to even the playing field.
True, Mortis' is slower, but that won't matter if Riott can't see him coming. So Mortis could still fly up, and use his Hypersonic cannon to destroy the chunk of earth, and keep firing. As he can fire for up to a minute, which would all be hitting Riott. |
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| Queen Bee | Dec 13 2011, 12:04 AM Post #31 |
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The Queen of all I survey..buzzzzz.....
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I'm still leaning slightly towards Mortis, but the arguments have brought Riott up a few notches.........I can't say I'm fully convinced one way or the other. I'll keep reading.. good job arguing the attributes of your kaiju so convincingly... |
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| LordNidhogg | Dec 13 2011, 01:41 AM Post #32 |
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Lord of Overkill
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Here's the problem: Riott's blades are hotter than the surface of the sun. They are so hot, that Mortis's flesh will basically evaporate when cut (unless he can withstand the surface of the sun...that would be problematic on a number of levels [and yes, Riott's blades would cut through himself like butter too]). Now, the sonic shake will produce pressure waves and such, but the heat from Riott's blades is going to dissociate the matter it comes into contact with, meaning that very little of Mortis's body is going to be hitting Riott, in a matter of speaking (haha, pun). That will reduce the effect of the shake significantly. Plus they vibrate too, which will break the frequency of the shake around them. In fact, since their vibration is so much faster, the shake might not affect the blades at all: they'd be producing enough counter frequency that the shake's vibrations wouldn't actually reach the main matter of the blades. Mortis's shake may be on a greater scale than the blades, but their vibration is thousands of times more intense. So Riott stabbing and slashing through the shake is not only possible, it's incredibly probable. Umm...reentry is at least several thousand times greater than "normal sounds" I guess it depends on what you're basis of normal sounds is, but if you mean that much greater than any naturally occurring sound, I'd have to call that out as being too powerful for the tourney, as supernovas produce sound waves so powerful that they travel through the near vacuum of space. That's a bit much, don't you think? So I'll assume you mean thousands of times greater than something like a jet engine, in which case Riott could take it, as reentry is in the same league as that. Now, you can argue that it's greater than reentry...but if you start producing sound waves much higher than that...well, you'd be dissolving massive chunks of the earth with every attack, and again that's a bit much. Lethal, yes. But turning off much of his hearing and pain will mean he isn't stunned much. Yes, it will still kill him with enough exposure, but the side effects will be much more manageable, giving Riott time to inflict hurt. Why change a good comparison? Don't fix what isn't broken . True, the force of his mass moving that fast is a lot to overcome, but each of his jets can produce enough force to accelerate him to top speed. So while he may not be a hummingbird, he can make sharper turns that most kaiju. I'd put him as just under Megaguirus in terms of agility. More so at lower speeds.Mortis may be fast for his size, but Riott has godlike reaction times. He doesn't have a nervous system, he has a brain. He thinks something, it's done. Mortis will reach out to grab him, he might even touch him, and then he loses at least his hand. Riott can react much, much, much faster than Mortis can. So Mortis will do something, and the split second he does, Riott can counter it. You say Mortis will blast him with the hypersonic cannon at point blank? Ok, fine. But here's the thing: Riott may not be able to withstand a full minute of the blast, but Mortis isn't going to get a full minute. He'll start the blast, and basically as soon as he does Riott will react. He may not be able to shrug it off, but maxing out his jets and using all of his strength, he'd put a blade through Mortis's head within seconds. If Mortis was holding him, he'd slice his arms so badly they'd be unusable. Though in those couple of seconds the shake could do some real damage, I will admit. Also, Mortis's sonic shield will be largely negated by Riott's jets. He can adjust the thrust to just surpass the threshold of the shield and move around mostly unhindered by it. And his strength is more than adequate to move his limbs through the shield's effect. Being a juggernaut may help him last longer, but Riott's blades are kind of an equalizer to any defense. Had Riott fought Druk Yul, I'd argue that they'd give him some serious wounds, and Mortis isn't as durable as Druk Yul. Now, I'm not saying that this will be easy for Riott. Mortis has a lot going for him. But Riott has a couple of key advantages, especially in melee. He's fast, agile, has godly reaction times, blades that can cut through just about everything with some features that help them against Mortis's ability set, and he's smaller (allowing him to move around Mortis's massive bulk). Overall, it's clear that Mortis has total ranged superiority, but the melee field isn't exactly even; Riott still has a pretty clear advantage in close range combat. Monkey-shaped spinosaur alien thank you very much! ![]() Why thank you, my lady [does obnoxiously over-the-top bow]. Swaying someone's opinion, even if I don't totally change it, is all I can ask for. Also, credit to Metatora: I think he and I have great debate chemistry. I have to admit I'm absolutely loving this battle discussion
Edited by LordNidhogg, Dec 13 2011, 01:52 AM.
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| Metatora | Dec 13 2011, 10:44 AM Post #33 |
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Does this LOOK like the face of mercy?
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Yes, the tendrils are vibrating, but the sonic shake is the most intense attack Mortis has. So I still see it as being able to destroy the tendrils. Plus, the vibrations would need to be the same frequency to cancel each other out, and I doubt they are. So the second Riott touches Mortis, the option of breaking every bone his body comes to the table. And something else, sine all the vibrations would be traveling through the tendrils, and by extension, Riott's armor, it might be enough to destroy the armor completely, if it were to take the full force of the sonic shake.
Sure, Riott can survive reentry, that's mostly heat, not sound. It would be loud, but not as loud as any of Mortis' sonic attacks. So it's kinda a moot point.
No, not really. Just because you can't feel pain, doesn't mean it's not there. The ears are directly attached to the brain. So even if Riott couldn't hear it, his brain is still going to get rattled, and there's no defense for that. Even more so considering his whole nervous system IS a brain.
That's great, but he still has to overcome his forward momentum, so even with the ability to get to stop speed, there's going to a brief moment where he slows down, it's simple physics.
A few problems with this: 1: Yes, Riott is faster, but he's not going to be able to dodge a point blank Hypersonic cannon. At Mach 7, it's every bit as fast as Riott is, and if he's taking damage like that, how is he going to be able to fly? His body is getting torn apart, so the blast might very well disable his jets. 2: Mortis can also survive re-entry, and while that's not as hot as the tendrils, it does mean he has a high tolerance to heat. So the tendrils are not going to be quite as effective as you think. Sure, they'll still cause damage, but they won't tear Mortis apart that quick. And since Riott relies on that, he's going to be in for a nasty surprise when he finds that Mortis is capable of powering through his attacks. 3: I don't think you understand the sonic shake that well, it's near instant. The very moment Riott touches Mortis, he has the option of using it. Being faster doesn't do Riott much good if his bones are broken.
Actually, no. Mortis has very effective counters for melee. His sonic scream has an effective range that's outside Riott's. Plus, he's still not quick enough to avoid the scream. And as I mentioned before, the sonic shake is going to cause heavy damage the second Riott even lands a finger on Mortis. Also, Riott is going be to slowed down by the sonic attacks, and the damage inflicted by Mortis right after. So I don't see Riott's "godly reaction time" being a big help here. So the field is still tipped in Mortis' favor, as he has a superior range game, and several ways to overcome Riott in melee. Will it be easy? No, but I still say Mortis takes this. And bear in mind, all this depends on Riott even getting to Mortis. And since Mortis is quite capable of dazing him, and thus, stopping him in his tracks before Riott can even get close, I don't see it happening without Riott taking some hits in the process, which will also slow him down do to the damage he takes. |
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| LordNidhogg | Dec 13 2011, 12:58 PM Post #34 |
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Lord of Overkill
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Says the guy with sound that travels faster than the speed of sound Maybe not cancel out, but they would still interfere. Although there's another angle: they're vibrating so fast that by the time any of Mortis's shocks would reach them, they'd have moved. Again, they're vibrating tens if not hundreds of thousands of times faster. Plus my point about the heat of of the blades stands: Mortis's actual body will not touch Riott's blades. And breaking every bone that Riott has instantly? Um, no. That's not even on the table dude. Riott is very durable, as has been pointed out before. Surviving the shake long term probably won't happen, but it won't break Riott the instant it's activated. So, Riott wil get hurt by the shake at some point, definitely, but not fast enough that he can't react. And destroying Riott's armor? Um, no. It's built to absorb kinetic energy of all kinds. And, like the tendrils, its natural state is liquid. You physically can't break the flexible coating, as vibration won't break something that elastic, and the armor itself will just slosh around, albeit violently. Umm...not feeling pain means that it's not there...that's kind of the definition. The damage is still there, but the "crippling pain" isn't. And his brain isn't going to get rattled much if any more than the rest of his body, which given his armor and durability, won't be any kind of critical damage with most of Mortis's attacks. I don't mean to be blunt, but you're wrong. Taking heavy damage does not mean being totally disabled. Legion was able to move around a bit when hit by Gamera's mana beam. Mortis's hypersonic cannon is nowhere near that intense, so Riott will take damage sure, but he won't be totally incapacitated, sound-stunning or no. Why can Mortis withstand 30,000 C+ heat and vibration calculated as a percentage of light speed when Riott will apparently be so incapacitated by Mortis's attacks that he has no choice other than to sit there and die? That just doesn't work out, my friend. Riott's blades work on multiple levels: their natural sharpness (sharper than a razor), vibration speeds that would make Mortis jealous, and insanely high heat that burns through the most heat resistant substances (ie those that survive reentry) like a lightsaber through butter. In fact, think of Riott's blades as lightsabers - that's a pretty good comparison. The big difference between Mortis and Riott is that the former has a battery of attacks while Riott relies primarily on one weapon. So think of Riott's blades as Mortis's shake and hypersonic cannon combined. Because that's what they are: Riott's ultimate weapon. Yes, as soon as Riott touches Mortis the latter can use his shake. But it still has to go through his nervous system, which is fast but not as fast as Riott's superior system. Riott will react in a fraction of the time Mortis can, meaning that he'll be exposed to the shake for such a tiny amount of time before he reacts, that both kaiju will essentially take damage at the same time. And Riott can withstand at least a few seconds (I'd say 3-5, depending on his level of contact with Mortis) of the shake before he takes crippling levels of damage. Dazing him, yes. Stopping him in his tracks? Not so much. The cannon would come the closes, but Riott could still fight through it enough to attack Mortis were he in melee range. |
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| Metatora | Dec 13 2011, 02:17 PM Post #35 |
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Does this LOOK like the face of mercy?
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Touche' But still, the beams are one thing, but having a 58,000 ton kaiju going mach 7 just turn around that fast is just...crazy. The amount of force he would need to overcome would be considerable. Besides, you used the Iron Man example, but Tony never made any sharp turns, so the best Riott could do is a fade-away or a large loop. While Riott is very durable, how do you expect him to not only fight the pain of the sonic shake while at the same time, Mortis is attacking with melee? That's a serious double whammy, and I see that being a major problem for Riott. Plus, if the tendrils aren't touching Mortis, then how will they be causing damage? Makes no sense. And what if Mortis grabs Riott's head uses the sonic shake? All that damage would do directly to his head and his brain, possibly crippling him. And the sonic shake doesn't even need to break every bone to be effective, is Riott's skull, spine or legs get broken, then what? He's tough, but suddenly having bones break in a melee brawl is a game ender. I didn't say Mortis was immune to them, just that he wouldn't be cut to ribbons that quick. And while we're on this note, why would Riott be immune to getting dazed? You can't just say that Mortis would be cut to ribbons while Riott would laugh at what ever Mortis hits him with. Yes, Mortis will get hurt by the tendrils, but Riott is going to be dazed by the sonic attacks, even if for a only a few seconds, but that's more than enough time for Mortis to hit back hard. But fast reflexes don't defend from damage, and Riott won't know about the sonic shake until it's already hurting him, and his focus at the time would be on Mortis anyway. So the shake is still a very viable option. But you know, we need someone else to debate here, as I don't think either of us are going to budge As the battle has turned into a "who can hit who first" Oh close the hell enough
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| LordNidhogg | Dec 13 2011, 03:14 PM Post #36 |
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Lord of Overkill
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That's exactly what I was thinking. Both of us have made some very good arguments, imo, and I think we've covered pretty much everything. So everyone else, unless you lot have something to add that neither Met nor I have thought of, I think this is about it. I think that Riott can pull it off because his combination of superior strength, speed, agility, reaction time, and ability to regenerate is enough to take down Mortis when combined with his high durability. Metatora argues Mortis because he has a ranged arsenal that give him a large advantage over Riott's pure melee style, plus his abilities used in conjunction with his size, strength, durability, and master-fighter's knowledge push him over the top. Really, both options have their merits and disadvantages. So, see whose arguments hold up the best to you, and vote when the polls are put up this Saturday. |
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| Kiryu | Dec 13 2011, 07:44 PM Post #37 |
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Ultradmin
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Pretty much every factor has already been discussed. The only remaining question I have for each monster is: Cake or pie? |
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| LordNidhogg | Dec 14 2011, 01:01 AM Post #38 |
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Lord of Overkill
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Damn! That's the ultimate question. But, for Riott, the answer is pie. Clever Kiryu. Very clever. |
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| Kiryu | Dec 14 2011, 01:04 AM Post #39 |
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Ultradmin
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Riott loses! In all seriousness, I'm still torn...leaning towards Mortis, but it's 51/49 right now. |
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| LordNidhogg | Dec 19 2011, 09:43 PM Post #40 |
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Lord of Overkill
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I say Riott, but only 51-49. This is really close, as both have some good advantages over the other. |
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| Metatora | Dec 19 2011, 10:24 PM Post #41 |
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Does this LOOK like the face of mercy?
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As mentioned, it's very close, but I'm standing by Mortis. |
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| Kiryu | Dec 20 2011, 12:51 AM Post #42 |
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Ultradmin
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I am also standing by Mortis, also 51/49. |
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| Mothra Freak | Dec 22 2011, 12:21 AM Post #43 |
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YOUR WISH HAS BEEN GRANTED
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I'm gonna parrot Kiryu for this. Mortis, but only just. |
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| Queen Bee | Dec 23 2011, 11:51 PM Post #44 |
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The Queen of all I survey..buzzzzz.....
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I agree. I still take Mortis by a hair... |
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). Mortis may be smart enough to know that an opponent getting behind you is bad, but Riott is fast, extremely flexible and agile (more so at the lower speeds he'd use to maintain melee), and he's smaller than Mortis which gives him an additional advantage: he can simply dodge Mortis's large and comparatively slow limbs.







3:29 PM Jul 11