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    3. Mothra Virgo (EM) vs. Komodogator (KaijuCanuck)
    Topic Started: Dec 7 2011, 07:56 AM (1,514 Views)
    EternalMothra
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    The Mothic Administrator
    Battle 3:

    Mothra Virgo (EM)

    vs.
    Komodogator (KaijuCanuck's)

    Arena: Bikini Atoll, Marshall Islands; South Pacific

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    KaijuCanuck
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    Quote:
     
    but lightning is damn fast, so Virgo needs to be quick to even have a chance of getting her defenses up in time.


    Well yeah, its literally the speed of light. And Komodogater can fire his beam either as a maintained, long-lasting blast like Godzilla's beam or as a barrage of instantaneous lightning strikes. I fell like he's going to be able to get more than one hit in, or one very long powerful hit. If its the long-lasting one, lets remember the constricting, paralyzing effect electricity has on muscles. I don't think Mothra's going to be able to her shields up during the blast because of that, so she would have to take the full brunt. And we all know bugs don't fare well against extreme heat. Just look at Mothra in EVERY millennium movie (yes, I'm aware that this Mothra is more based off of Leo but their both insects). Or, if you want a better example, ever put one of those electric tennis racket things over a wasp nest? Its a massacre.

    I also don't see how Mothra's energy attacks can just 'evaporate' the ocean. I've never seen any of the Rebirth of Mothra's, but you said that Leo was able to do this... so? You've been comparing Virgo's energy attacks to Godzilla's spiral ray, and I don't think even that just evaporates water. Maybe toss it about, throw it in the air, but what good does that too? Basically I think Komodogater's advantage in the water still stands.
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    EternalMothra
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    Metatora
    Dec 12 2011, 11:47 PM
    @EM: But it's still not Leo, it's Virgo. Just because Virgo is Leo's daughter doesn't mean you can use Leo's feats to argue for Virgo. We have to judge these two by what's in their bios. Sure, we can stretch things a bit here and there, but using feats from another kaiju, mother or not, is a bit much IMO.
    On the contrary, it isn't. Mothra Virgo is almost the exact same type of Mothra as her mother, with the same power and many of the same abilities. We're arguing about kinetic beams evaporating/penetrating water. Regardless if it is like Leo or not, the concussive force would be enough to remove much of the water. And I used Leo as an example because her beams could do that. That'd be like comparing and contrasting the strength of Godzilla's atomic ray with other eras, or comparing two different King Ghidorah's. How is that a bit much when it does provide insight?

    Honestly this whole "lets discount anything the moth can do" ordeal that happens with the same people every FFKT is beginning to frustrate me. And I'm frankly tired of being told that any debate I contribute is pointless, or 'a bit much'.

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    Well yeah, its literally the speed of light. And Komodogater can fire his beam either as a maintained, long-lasting blast like Godzilla's beam or as a barrage of instantaneous lightning strikes. I fell like he's going to be able to get more than one hit in, or one very long powerful hit. If its the long-lasting one, lets remember the constricting, paralyzing effect electricity has on muscles. I don't think Mothra's going to be able to her shields up during the blast because of that, so she would have to take the full brunt. And we all know bugs don't fare well against extreme heat. Just look at Mothra in EVERY millennium movie (yes, I'm aware that this Mothra is more based off of Leo but their both insects). Or, if you want a better example, ever put one of those electric tennis racket things over a wasp nest? Its a massacre.


    Well I could come up with a whole argument against that but I'd have to compare it to Mothra Leo's experience with King Ghidorah. I might as well not since it's just flawed judgment it seems.
    Edited by EternalMothra, Dec 13 2011, 12:13 AM.

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    LordNidhogg
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    Well I don't think that, EM. Your arguments are quite valid on the whole (nobody argues perfectly).

    I just want to know how much water Virgo can displace and how much she'd need to. It's quite possible that her first few attacks will displace enough water because Komodogator won't know how deep he needs to dive to avoid her beams.

    @ Met: comparing beams of fan kaiju to those in movies is pretty much the standard. It's hard to describe a beam's effect, er, effectively in non-physics terms without a point of comparison. So using another kaiju, especially one so similar that in terms of EMs FF Leo is literally Virgo's mother, is quite justified. And in the bio Virgo's beam is compared directly to Godzilla's spiral ray which, if we count the Burning Godzilla one (which is pretty much the same to my knowledge, just that the spiral beam is now his normal blast), pretty much made the water explode when he used it in the opening of Godzilla vs. Destoroyah. Did it evaporate massive chunks of the ocean? Not really. But did it displace enough that anything within 50 meters of the surface would feel it? I would say so.

    Here's another thought: Virgo, while not truly water comfortable like Aqua Mothra, can go into the water. Why not dive into the water (especially if she knows Komodogator's position) and then use her conversion just as Komodogator attacks her? That would negate much of his aquatic superiority by paralyzing him. Then she could blast him while under water. If she could get under him (tricky, but possible) blasting him to the surface wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility. That has the possibility of negating some of the advantage that water gives Komodogator.

    Also, from what I can tell (researching it has been frustrating) the ocean isn't all that deep immediately around the Bikini Atoll. It's relatively close to truly deep water, but it's pretty shallow with many small island just breaking out of the the ocean, and landmass underneath them that connects all of them. Now I might be wrong, of course, but it doesn't look like Komodogator can dive too far, which could give Mothra a bit of an advantage.
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    KaijuCanuck
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    Thats a very good point, I never thought of that. Though I am still a bit confused as to how Mothra can swim... wouldn't her wings get damp and make it difficult to leave? Never mind, this doesn't have to be realistic, but if someone could explain the true ability of Virgo's aquatic abilities I would appreciate it. But even if Virgo does paralyze Komodogater in the water, its not like doing it once and then barraging him with attacks will win the fight. Once Komodogater's good, he'll lash out unless Virgo has fled. And the attacks won't prolong the paralysis much since Komodogater is impervious to pain.

    I haven't done such research but if what your saying is true than not diving down farther is problem... though really only that it makes it easier for Virgo to come into the water, I still think he can hide fairly well. I should also remind everyone of his burrowing abilities. It can't really help him much, be he could escape the line of fire for a while and then maybe emerge behind Virgo, or somewhere un-expected... like on land... idk.
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    LordNidhogg
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    Quote:
     
    Never mind, this doesn't have to be realistic, but if someone could explain the true ability of Virgo's aquatic abilities I would appreciate it.
    Likewise. EM said that, based on the RoM movies, Virgo wouldn't be totally incapacitated by water. However, that doesn't mean she's a swimmer either. So a bit of clarification would be great.

    And yeah, Komodogator's massive durability and pain resistance make him a tough opponent for anyone. Mothra has tools that will work...but even at her best it will take a long time to take Komodogator down. And time gives Komodogator opportunities to strike back. This is a very close match. Really, two out of the three matches right now are very close, with the Wulfbane-Oroborus match being the only one-sided battle this round. I'm abstaining, but as of now I'm leaning very slightly towards Mothra. Komodogator is incredibly tough, but Mothra does have a lot of options for fighting him and limiting some of his abilities/attributes. Very close, but right now I'm slightly leaning towards Mothra.
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    Metatora
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    On the contrary, it isn't. Mothra Virgo is almost the exact same type of Mothra as her mother, with the same power and many of the same abilities. We're arguing about kinetic beams evaporating/penetrating water. Regardless if it is like Leo or not, the concussive force would be enough to remove much of the water. And I used Leo as an example because her beams could do that. That'd be like comparing and contrasting the strength of Godzilla's atomic ray with other eras, or comparing two different King Ghidorah's. How is that a bit much when it does provide insight?
    Because the beam comparison is in the profile. While everything else you mentioned, is not. Yes, a stretch here and there when debating is okay, but using feats from another kaiju, even Virgo's mother, is not. Unless it's mentioned in the profile.

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    Honestly this whole "lets discount anything the moth can do" ordeal that happens with the same people every FFKT is beginning to frustrate me. And I'm frankly tired of being told that any debate I contribute is pointless, or 'a bit much'.
    Um, what? I argued FOR Virgo last year when she faced off with Riott. It's not that I dislike Virgo, but you need to make better arguments than "well, if her mother could do it, then so can she"

    Also, the whole "discount everything your kaiju can do" thing is you just overreacting. Every debate I've been in, my counterparts have tried to discount all my kaiju's advantages
    (just look at the Riott vs Mortis thread for proof) but you didn't see me complaining. I simply make better arguments to make my point. I suggest you do the same. Because while I am favoring Komodogator at the moment, a solid argument for Virgo can still change my mind.
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    EternalMothra
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    Metatora
     
    Because the beam comparison is in the profile. While everything else you mentioned, is not. Yes, a stretch here and there when debating is okay, but using feats from another kaiju, even Virgo's mother, is not. Unless it's mentioned in the profile.


    Yet everyone one else has used evidence not used in their profiles before as well. I recall you used evidence not directly stated/explained in your battle for Pyron for example. That's the point of FFKT, it is left a lot to interpretation because it is impossible to include everything in the profile completely. This is obviously your opinion on that, but most of us here have compared our kaiju's feats to others out there. If that's such a bad thing than there'd be no basis for comparison from the start.

    Quote:
     
    Um, what? I argued FOR Virgo last year when she faced off with Riott. It's not that I dislike Virgo, but you need to make better arguments than "well, if her mother could do it, then so can she"

    Also, the whole "discount everything your kaiju can do" thing is you just overreacting. Every debate I've been in, my counterparts have tried to discount all my kaiju's advantages
    (just look at the Riott vs Mortis thread for proof) but you didn't see me complaining. I simply make better arguments to make my point. I suggest you do the same. Because while I am favoring Komodogator at the moment, a solid argument for Virgo can still change my mind.


    Well you think those aren't good arguments yet they seemed to be convincing enough for other people. Call it overreacting but I've noticed over the past few years how female kaiju are almost *always* underrated. It's one reason why Wolfprincess or Cyndi do not participate in this event anymore which is sad. I have no problem with you proving me wrong, but you crossed the line when you made the point saying that it's a flawed argument and sounding a bit snide about it as well. It could be that I read it differently and interpreted it wrong, and I'm sorry for that. But it almost sounded offensive.

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    KaijuCanuck
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    Guys, really, lets not start a fight here. Its okay to disagree on arguments, that's the whole point of a debate, but we shouldn't get so outraged in the process. Its a game, its supposed to be fun, it doesn't actually matter or anything.
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    EternalMothra
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    It does matter because disgruntling other people's arguments in saying that they are well...essentially ridiculous is what makes people frustrated with participating in this. I'm just pointing it out. It wouldn't have frustrated me if I was just proven wrong, not to be made an idiot because I was using comparisons. lol. I'm sorry Metatora for getting angry, it's just frustrating when I seem to sound like an idiot for making comparisons to other kaiju when many other people do the same thing. I hope you understand that.
    Edited by EternalMothra, Dec 14 2011, 01:22 AM.

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    LordNidhogg
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    Call it overreacting but I've noticed over the past few years how female kaiju are almost *always* underrated.
    Wait...what? I'm legitimately confused here. When have female kaiju been underrated? Granted they don't win as much, but that's simply because female kaiju are a small minority of those entered in the tournament. I mean, statistically they shouldn't win as much: the biggest tourney I've participated in had 24 kaiju, 4 of which were female. I don't think being female has anything to do with winning or losing. Hell, Rygama was female and won one tourney I participated in and came close to winning at least one more. I think the biggest thing against female kaiju isn't that they're female, just that there aren't a lot of them.

    However, let's please not argue and be civil. It's a tournament for fan made kaiju, guys; it's not worth taking that seriously. EM has a point: putting every single comparison and interpretation of every aspect of a kaiju into its profile is impossible. And Met, you could have phrased your point a bit differently, as it was a bit, er, blunt. However, in Met's defense, arguing that Virgo can do exactly what Leo did because Virgo is Leo's daughter is kind of a weak argument, if only because it really doesn't point to Virgo having a defining trait of her own. It's great to use something else to compare against and all, but when you used it EM you just said
    Quote:
     
    On the contrary, if we look back at Rebirth of Mothra 3 we see that water really isn't much of a defense in regard to a water-faring monster. Mothra Leo literally burnt off gallons of water in order to get to Dagarah, in fact the kinetic force of the weapons also literally moved the water.
    and you left it like that, as though that were a full argument of Virgo's abilities. In my mind, comparing an ability to another kaiju is a good starting point; you jump off of it with how your kaiju is different, and then give an explanation about why. I don't think EM's argument was bad, I just felt like it was more like the beginning of an argument. Virgo should be her own kaiju, not just a clone of her mother that can be explained by saying "look at Leo".

    I really hope I didn't offend anyone, I'm not trying to. I'm just trying to say that neither side is right nor completely wrong.

    So, EM, if you could give a bit of explanation about the extent of Virgo's limitations and abilities while in/under the water, that would be awesome. I haven't seen any of the RoM movies in a while, so the only water scene with a non-Aqua Mothra that I remember is where Leo's mother dies in the first one.
    Edited by LordNidhogg, Dec 14 2011, 01:23 AM.
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    EternalMothra
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    LordNidHogg
     
    So, EM, if you could give a bit of explanation about the extent of Virgo's limitations and abilities while in/under the water, that would be awesome. I haven't seen any of the RoM movies in a while, so the only water scene with a non-Aqua Mothra that I remember is where Leo's mother dies in the first one.


    Well. Obviously Virgo is not Aqua Mothra, but she can basically propel herself through the water with her wings. Mothra Leo could, even in a weakened state. Obviously she probably would not be as fast as Komodogater in the water. So if the battle took place beneath the waves, he would have the advantage.

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    Metatora
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    Does this LOOK like the face of mercy?
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    Arguing that Virgo can do exactly what Leo did because Virgo is Leo's daughter is kind of a weak argument, if only because it really doesn't point to Virgo having a defining trait of her own. It's great to use something else to compare against and all, but in my mind, comparing an ability to another kaiju is a good starting point; you jump off of it with how your kaiju is different, and then give an explanation about why. I don't think EM's argument was bad, I just felt like it was more like the beginning of an argument. Virgo should be her own kaiju, not just a clone of her mother that can be explained by saying "look at Leo"."
    And that's the point I was trying to make. Yes, I may have a been a bit blunt, and I'm sorry for that, but the Mother-daughter connection shouldn't have been his main argument is all I was trying to get across.
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    I'm sorry Metatora for getting angry.
    To be fair, I was rather...straightforward. So for that, I apologize.
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    Kiryu
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    My argument for Virgo based off 5 minutes of studying the area:

    Just because it's mostly water, doesn't mean there's not enough land. Mothra can easily hover just above the (if I can call it) tree line. This could draw Komodo out of hiding because of his more opportunistic nature, exposing him to all kinds of bad things Virgo can throw at him. He'll take a while to go down due his high pain tolerance, but if Virgo can lure him onto land, she'll have a very good shot at winning over time.
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    Queen Bee
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    The Queen of all I survey..buzzzzz.....
    I like blunt.........better then beating around the bush guys.. :)
    how soon before we vote? Just need to make sure I am able to get on at the time and don't miss the final debates and the vote...
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    EternalMothra
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    Voting starts tomorrow! And ends next Wednesday.

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    Queen Bee
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    The Queen of all I survey..buzzzzz.....
    Thanks for the heads up...Will be reading up once again and ready.
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    LordNidhogg
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    Very close, but I had to go with Virgo. Komodogator is a lot more durable, but Virgo has more tools to use and more brains to use them with. It'll probably take the record for longest kaiju battle ever, but I think Mothra has a slightly better chance.
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    Metatora
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    Does this LOOK like the face of mercy?
    I'm going with Komodogator, not saying this is going to be easy for either kaiju, but I think his durability should let him last long enough to win.
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    EternalMothra
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    I voted for Virgo as well. While Komodogator has a lot of durability, that can't always protect a kaiju. Mothra's arsenal is formidable not to mention she has greater speed and intelligence as well.

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    KaijuCanuck
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    I voted for Komodogater (surprise!). He's not smart but he's not dumb either and I think if he's lured on land he'll know enough to get back in the water, and once he's in the water and Mothra is in the air, and neither can touch each other, I think it has to eventually go to melee. And if Mothra comes into the water, then she is still at a disadvantage. Down there, I would even wager that Komodogater is faster, and more maneuverable. Very close there, and if Virgo wins I will certainly see why.
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    Kiryu
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    I voted Virgo as well. Kind of what Nid said; she has more tools and more brains to work with. But, just like with Mortis vs. Riott, it's 51/49 for me.
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    Zardac the Great
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    Only one I can decide on. Komo wins.
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    Queen Bee
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    I'm voting Virgo........if she was a dumb beast she might fall for the lie in wait bit but I think she'll be smarter then that and I think Komo may flinch first and put himself at risk........a battle would be interesting to see.
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