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Making Monsters; Making Systems
Topic Started: Jun 30 2015, 08:07 AM (1,895 Views)
SporkMaster5000

So the summoning thread brought up a monster making system. I slapped together the dramatis personae update, I'm willing to try blindly stumbling at a system for this shit. I'll probably hash out the heavy lifting tonight. right now I just want to lay out my plans and provide some rough guidelines I noticed from book 1, and/or keep in mind myself

1) Level should serve as a general barometer of challenge
Level only exists to contribute to attack bonuses and resilience, but The Dragon is the only level 5 monster in book 1. Generally level of monster seemed like a fair level to be tossing at a PC and expect some challenge (this is based purely on eyeballing though, so maybe I'm full of crap). I think level should be derivative in any system to make monsters to reflect what it's capable of, not bought up just to contribute to the two stats it exists on a monster stat block to contribute to.

2) No characteristics over 5dots
The dragon is the only monster that breaks this rule, being the high end of difficulty in the ready made monsters. Even other large creatures like the aboleth don't go over 5 dots. I don't know if this should be inbuilt to a monster creation system (and anyone who wants six dots on their guy just has to go off the rails) or just make it a strong guideline.

3) Automatic proficiency
The only monsters that have a weapon and aren't proficient with it are ones with natural weapons or other weapons that don't actually have a proficiency category. I would make the argument that all natural weapons come with automatic proficiency, but that's not explicit in the rules (there is technically no way to get proficiency in them in the game either though, and they're natural is the short version). There's no reason to gimp your monsters' attack rolls regardless of what the ruling is though.

4) Sound constitution isn't a feat, it's 1 HP
Most feats require some consideration, and an upper limit on feats allowed might be part of any system, but sound constitution is a great way to pad a monster's HP, and will probably be easier to acquire in any monster building system than other feats that provide bonuses an SM will have to go reference.

Other than the above, I would build a monster by eyeballing characteristics, throwing a handful of appropriate-sounding skills on it, and browsing feats for anything really worthwhile, until I have maybe four max. Here's a short list of how each characteristic contributes to a monster while we wait for a proper building system:

Str: adds to melee damage (usually incorporated in a stat block for ease of use) and speed
Dex: adds to speed, static defense and dodge attempts
Con: adds to HP
Int: Contributes to certain magic school casting
Wis: adds to Static Defense, contributes to certain magic school casting
Wil: adds to HP, and resolve, contributes to certain magic school casting
Cha: Contributes to certain magic school casting
Fel: used in some social attacks
Com: Adds to resolve and solely determines Mental defense

This system is currently based on blind reckoning and the PC creation rules. The numbers are subject to change based on reference to the dramatis personae monsters in order to find some parity, I just want numbers on paper and a framework in place before I polish to be worth keeping.

To Do List:
Aside from generally balancing numbers, the Trait tiers probably need to be shaken out, a third may appear and/or some might get pulled from the list and given special attention.
Speaking of which, most dramatis personae with a resource stat have some number of the exaltation's starting abilities. Rules to balance that out should probably get shoehorned in. Worst-case we list what a monster gets from each exaltation explicitly.
XP scaling is based on very fast and loose math, a better gradient may or may not reveal itself.
Additional Traits. After I get the numbers close to reasonable I intend to add some other traits. Tremorsense was invented in the making monsters thread, for instance. I'll be open to submissions at some point.
I have no mention of gear for enemies, that should probably be purchasable too.

First draft
Edited by SporkMaster5000, Jul 5 2015, 02:12 PM.
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ReptileViking
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1) I don't think we should be too afraid of making more level 5 monsters. The Dragon is supposed to be a very young one after all!
2) The Dark Mechanicus, Greater Daemon, Combat Servitor all have physical characteristics over 5. Did you mean over 6?
3) Agreed

We also need a way to take size into account when quantifying threat. If a monster is really big, it's going to be stupidly hard for on-foot adventurers to hurt even if it's otherwise fairly weak.
Edited by ReptileViking, Jun 30 2015, 10:47 AM.
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SporkMaster5000

ReptileViking
Jun 30 2015, 10:47 AM
1) I don't think we should be too afraid of making more level 5 monsters. The Dragon is supposed to be a very young one after all!
2) The Dark Mechanicus, Greater Daemon, Combat Servitor all have physical characteristics over 5. Did you mean over 6?
3) Agreed

We also need a way to take size into account when quantifying threat. If a monster is really big, it's going to be stupidly hard for on-foot adventurers to hurt even if it's otherwise fairly weak.
1) I didn't mean to imply we should avoid level five, but that level should be a barometer of general challenge, and not just another stat. it would be very easy to build a stat where you can just buy a level for better attacks/resilience but it doesn't actually mean anything. the dragon being the only level 5 was more of a notable fact to support lv being big and bad and scary and not just a number.

2) actually I just clearly didn't read through monster stats well enough in the ten minutes before I went to work. 6 might be a better hard-ish cap with 5 as a strongly suggested cap for average badguys.
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SporkMaster5000

My first wild crack at a system is up, borrowing heavily from character creation/leveling. The math needs a lot of work, but it exists.
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ReptileViking
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Interesting. I'll try making a few monsters with it tomorrow and see what shakes loose.
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SporkMaster5000

some quick counts from the bare bones end of the pool using current prices:

noncombatant: 1350xp

green troops: 2100xp + gear

regular troops 2600xp + gear

elite soldiers: 3600xp +gear

mortal hero: 6050xp +gear

some of this comes from armor prof, which I can't decide if it should be automatic or not. I swear I remember at least one or two stat blocks not having proficiency with their armor, and it can be an easy way to drop crazy armor on a guy and still have him be very beatable.
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SporkMaster5000

Added rules for bodging together monster attacks. Haven't thought about price scale for weapon qualities that have variable numbers attached to them.
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Doc
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Just a Guy
There's only Blast and Proven, right? 'cause a quick glance at the weapon creation rules shows Blast (3) being a +1 mod, where Blast (5) and Proven (3) are both +2's. Compared to the rest of the weapon creation rules, that's hopefully helpful.
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Doc
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Just a Guy
Spoilered for space


Just putting this here for ease of comparisons.
And more or less agreed with Eisenritter here; I think they either get too much XP to pitch at things (at all levels, really), or everything costs too little.
That said, some random thoughts on my part:

  • Maximums should probably be clarified. Case in point, any roll caps out at 10 rolled dice (with every extra two wrapping around to an extra kept) - if a monster is made that's put the comparative pittance of 500 XP to just pitch 10 dice, then they can just keep buying two more to get +0k1 for cheaper.
  • Penetration should not be the same cost as +1k0 attack damage, but cheaper. The logic being that 1 damage is better than penetration, because not only does penetration not change into damage if you've got too much penetration, but that +1k0 damage is potentially a whole hell of a lot more effective penetration.
  • I can't fault the cost of feats, but I feel it's important to remember that most feats are barred off 'til higher levels due to classes. Few - if any - classes get good feats like Step Aside or Wall of Steel or Lightning Attack until level 4 or 5, whereas a level 1 creature can simply drop the 100 XP to pick them up easy-like. Admittedly, properly tackling such a problem would likely require an assessment of literally every feat in the game to see where they stand, so I digress.
  • On a guess, some traits probably shouldn't be capable of being taken with other traits. While I'd laugh at an Undead Daemonic Machine thing, I doubt they should be taken together.

Edited by Doc, Jul 1 2015, 03:19 PM.
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Eisenritter
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Old Iron Knight
Doc
Jul 1 2015, 02:46 PM

  • On a guess, some traits probably shouldn't be capable of being taken with other traits. While I'd laugh at an Undead Daemonic Machine thing, I doubt they should be taken together.



...You pretty much just described a Nurglite Soul Grinder? :P
Edited by Eisenritter, Jul 1 2015, 02:56 PM.
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