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Languages; Are there too many?
Topic Started: Jan 27 2016, 11:32 PM (2,133 Views)
weredrago2
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He Who Posts Too Much
Not a bad idea. I'll keep it in mind.
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Eisenritter
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Eisenritter
Feb 4 2016, 05:14 PM
Vizards are based (indirectly) on a masked devil in Spanish folklore, same thing the Hollows in Bleach are based on.

Dusklings got shifted to it because they're imps... traditionally the lowest form of incarnated devil in tabletop games. They also have a lot of behavioral quirks shared with devils in Magic: The Gathering.

"Infernal" derives from "inferno," that is to say it's an adjective referring to something of or relating to hell. It can also refer to something ridiculously annoying... see again, Dusklings are basically kender-lite, while Vizards obfuscate like it's going out of fashion.
Do please note: Hell - that is to say, Baator - is an entirely separate crystal sphere from the Abyss.

Also note: Dullahans are not Umbral natives.

Therefore: That Dusklings and Vizards are native to the Umbra are, frankly, irrelevant to my choice of languages for them, and even more so the subject of Dullahans speaking Infernal.
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Username

Devil's aren't their own thing in DtD though, Baator is filled with people that made pacts with Daemons and used Daemonic means for power. Considering the Daemonic influence, a majority of the natives of Baator probably speak Abyssal. Best to know what you're agreeing to and signing before you go through with it, unless you want to end up like Levistus.
They might speak Celestial too of course, if they are making pacts with the Daemons aligned with order.
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Eisenritter
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Yeah, no, I'm not budging. Dusklings speak Infernal, Vizards speak Infernal, end of story.
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weredrago2
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He Who Posts Too Much
Okay, so Vizards are spooky mask guys and Dusklings are imps. So? Regardless of their origins, that doesn't mean they deserve their own 'spooky language' to themselves when Abyssal is a fine alternative.

Also, if Infernal isn't some sort of 'Umbra Trade' (which wouldn't make sense anyway when regular Trade is an option), then why the hell do Vizards and Dusklings both share it? Why would Dullahans join the "We All Speak Infernal For No Reason" Club if they don't have any communication between each other? I mean, its not like Infernal would have the same overarching influence as a language made by the Ruinous Powers.

As for the whole "Unseelie" thing, I feel that you should change Dullahans and Fair Folk to speaking "Sidhe" and give Unseelie Fair Folk the Spirit and/or Abyssal language(s).

At the end of the day, I can't force you to change your mind on this subject. All I can do is attempt to persuade you to my point of view: that Infernal is unnecessary language bloat. You were able to convince me on Saurian (which I'm considering adding as an alternate language option for Slaad as a reference to WHFB), but I don't think Infernal is a viable language whatsoever.

EDIT: If Dusklings hop into the Materium all the time (which, last I recall, they do), would that not be viable justification to give them an additional free language option?
Edited by weredrago2, Feb 20 2016, 10:53 PM.
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Kwak
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Sous Chef
So, regardless of who's right, we can all at least agree that Baator/Abyss/Daemons/Devils/Warp/Hell/Chaos/Evil/Umbra are all kinds of fucked right now in the lore, before even getting into everyone's opinions on said lore. Like..


  • Traya, the example Tiefling in the back of the book, starts with Infernal and Trade, but not Abyssal.
  • The Abyss is "effectively entirely within the Umbra."
  • Eisenritter has summarized the Infernal Monster Sword School as "the perfect expression of Khornate ideology." Khorne lives in the Abyss.
  • Daemonhosts of Chaos "will typically take on some of the appearance of a classic devil.
  • The Nephilim, a C'tan Exalt, uses the names of the Infernal Exalted Castes.
  • The Cult of Rakdos mentions an infernal performance.
  • Similar to what Username said, Baator's natives "have a long history of sorcery, the dangerous kind...Mutation and corruption are common along Baator's inhabitants.
  • In D&D/Planescape, Baator is Lawful Evil, and its devils are diametrically opposed to the Abyss's daemons. Does that mean Baator has angels?
  • The Hollows' realm in Bleach is an inhospitable wasteland which is opposed to the Lawful Neutral realm, kinda like the Abyss. It is very different from Hell, which is its own world with its own stuff.
  • Daemons are trapped in the Abyss and want to get out, making it kind of like Hell.


Basically, the lack of a separate concept of evil, and devils, makes the lore collide weirdly. So I'm coming out of this not knowing what the fuck to make of Baator in general, nor do I understand what Dusklings/Vizards have to do with it very well or what the Umbra has to do with Baator as opposed to the Abyss.
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weredrago2
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He Who Posts Too Much
It's like LawfulNice threw a dozen things on a wall so SMs could decide either what sticked or what to pull off.
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Kwak
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So actually, calling the Umbral/Baatorian races "Infernal" is the perfect compromise, because like their geographic roots you can interpret them however's convenient. If you rule that Infernal is a typo synonym for Abyssal, then Eisenritter has decided to make them speak Abyssal, he just wrote it out differently. And if you rule that Infernal and Abyssal should be retconned to be distinct, then you agree with Eisenritter's decision.

I think. Baator reminds me too much of Hitchhiker's Guide. Dry, bureaucratic and exhaustingly arbitrary.
Edited by Kwak, Feb 21 2016, 12:46 AM.
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weredrago2
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He Who Posts Too Much
Forget Pandaemonium, it's Baator that we don't go to anymore. At least Pandaemonium can make you Psionic.
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Username

Baator isn't especially Warp filled. According to the description, it is mostly filled with dudes that have been tainted by deals with daemons and the influence of these pacts.

Quote:
 
The natives here have a long history of sorcery, the dangerous kind. Pacts with daemons are the only way to ascend in society, testing not only a person's ability to call on the daemons but also their cunning and ability to cut deals that leave them ahead (and alive). The more politically influential people in Baator are effectively immortal, with overlapping contracts and deals that have left them with little humanity in body or soul. Mutation and corruption are common among Baator's inhabitants. Most worlds of Baator have little in the way of wildlife - almost everything has been subjugated and planned, used up in quests for power. What there is was probably once human but fallen to mutation to become something less than a man.

This along with the description of the various worlds and their leaders supports the idea that the natives of Baator are, or were, just races of various mixes that have banded together. Any racial tension falls to the wayside of political intrigue and lust for power, with some like Mammon outright casting aside whatever race they once were in the quest for power and control. You might call the people that live there Devils, but they aren't a unique and distinct race.
Edited by Username, Feb 21 2016, 12:50 AM.
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