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| I have a question regarding Spider... | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 31 2007, 09:42 AM (982 Views) | |
| Forute. Till The End | Aug 31 2007, 09:42 AM Post #1 |
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You know how Redips says he was Spider the whole time? I can't be sure, because if Spider gave up his life, and Redips was Spider the whole time, how could he still live? I just wanna know if you have the answer. |
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| Marl Duothimir | Aug 31 2007, 10:06 AM Post #2 |
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Fighting for truth, justice, and the corn chip way!
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Spider had that little stealth system like Axl, right? Perhaps he didn't really die, and used that system to escape past the others unnoticed. Just a thought. |
![]() Crimson Berserkers: Crush Crawfish Aftermath: Snakeman.EXE | |
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| Forute. Till The End | Aug 31 2007, 10:14 AM Post #3 |
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I think that might be it, but then, wouldn't the others notice if someone was being transported to Hunter Base moments after they returned? But you might be right. |
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| Marl Duothimir | Aug 31 2007, 10:21 AM Post #4 |
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Fighting for truth, justice, and the corn chip way!
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I have another theory regarding that. After X and the others left, he called one of his allies and had them program the coordinates to wherever it was he was giving the Hunters orders from, and used the teleporter to go there, instead. I could probably word that better, but I confused myself again trying to do so. |
![]() Crimson Berserkers: Crush Crawfish Aftermath: Snakeman.EXE | |
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| Enigma | Aug 31 2007, 10:24 AM Post #5 |
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I have a....shadow in my title?
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Perhaps the "Spider" that gave his life was just a clone/lacky hired by Redips? Remember, the Rebellion bosses near the end were really Reploids with the Chameleon trait, so for all we know, that Spider could have been one of them. Not the best theory, but, well.... |
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| Iga | Aug 31 2007, 10:31 AM Post #6 |
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Psychoheretic
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I have a theory that Command Mission has some effed-up plotholes. I pretty much leave it at that. |
| WW, 7M | |
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| Enigma | Aug 31 2007, 10:41 AM Post #7 |
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I have a....shadow in my title?
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Maybe, but it's a damn fine game. One thing that still confuses me, though: if the "origininal" Spider wasn't Redips, then is it just a bizzare coincidence that Redips is Spider backwards? |
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| Forute. Till The End | Aug 31 2007, 10:53 AM Post #8 |
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Still, about your theory Marl. I can't see Redips surviving an explosion from a powerful Reploid at close range, even if he DID survive, I doubt his wounds would be able to heal quickly enough not to look suspicious. Remember, he looked fine when he got the Supra Force Metal from X after Epsilon fell. So if he DID heal his wounds quickly, it'd have to be after he got the Supra Force Metal, seeing as how he didn't have any in his possession originally. Any thoughts on that theory? |
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| Wire Sponge | Aug 31 2007, 11:10 AM Post #9 |
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B33R!!!
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he took the blow, but he survived. sinamon and doc godile(they said) wanted to repair him in the base, and he refused them to take a look at him(so that they don't find out that he's redips).....but then he sortoff...rolled over...and died...without anyone doing something about it. :/ on the other hand, axl, zero and X saw him die right there. all of the abouve is right from the game, so ether they tryed to censor it, screwed up realy bad, or there are 2 SPIDERS. |
CIA: Wire Sponge![]() Segata Sanshiro...SEGATA SANSHIROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! | |
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| Marl Duothimir | Aug 31 2007, 11:32 AM Post #10 |
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Fighting for truth, justice, and the corn chip way!
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None at all. I should probably wait until I'm actually awake before coming up with theories for things like this. |
![]() Crimson Berserkers: Crush Crawfish Aftermath: Snakeman.EXE | |
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| Enigma | Aug 31 2007, 04:54 PM Post #11 |
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I have a....shadow in my title?
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Okay, so me and Forute were chatting on AIM, and we came up with some pretty wacky (yet vaguely plausible) theories. ForteDeath (17:10:13): If he had really good shape changing abilities... ForteDeath (17:10:20): Then do you realize what this means? EnigmaGroove (17:10:29): What? EnigmaGroove (17:10:36): What does it mean? EnigmaGroove (17:10:42): I NEED TO KNOW!! ForteDeath (17:11:06): That Redips probably only needed to view Spider once before, then he could become Spider WITHOUT having to eliminate him first. EnigmaGroove (17:11:25): Probably, yeah. ForteDeath (17:11:46): Which means that he must have been in Giga City the whole time. EnigmaGroove (17:12:00): Good point. Actually, here's something I just thought of.... EnigmaGroove (17:12:14): Do you know the ending of X8? ForteDeath (17:12:59): I think it was that Axl gets busted in the Crystal, and and then Lunar or whatever the hell his name is says something I can't remember, and the gang goes home, while Axl is having nightmares. EnigmaGroove (17:13:08): Lumine. ForteDeath (17:13:11): Thanks, him. ForteDeath (17:13:21): Well, how could that tie into Command Mission? EnigmaGroove (17:13:31): Exactly!! EnigmaGroove (17:13:47): If Command Mission is set afterwards, whatever happened to Axl and Lumine's speech? ForteDeath (17:14:10): What did they say? EnigmaGroove (17:14:31): Lumine said something about it only being the beginning. EnigmaGroove (17:14:39): And Axl is a-okay. ForteDeath (17:14:38): Hmm... EnigmaGroove (17:14:52): I doubt Epsilon has any connection.... EnigmaGroove (17:14:56): But maybe Redips does? ForteDeath (17:14:54): Do you think that maybe Redips was plotting with Lumine? EnigmaGroove (17:15:07): He does have copy powers, so it's highly possible. EnigmaGroove (17:15:20): He must be one of the new-generation Reploids. ForteDeath (17:15:25): But if it's true, then it would have to mean that.. EnigmaGroove (17:15:37): That....? ForteDeath (17:15:49): OMG, REDIPS MUST'VE BETRAYED LUMINE!!!!! EnigmaGroove (17:15:58): o_O EnigmaGroove (17:16:06): That is AWESOME. EnigmaGroove (17:16:14): Peter Griffin reference. =P ForteDeath (17:16:49): Maybe Lumine was probably a lot stronger, but Redips might've done something to his systems behind his back that would weaken him? EnigmaGroove (17:17:02): Good, I never liked him anyway. ForteDeath (17:16:59): So then, Lumine gets polished off... EnigmaGroove (17:17:08): And.... ForteDeath (17:17:23): And then there's no one else who Redips has to fight with for control of Earth. EnigmaGroove (17:17:33): Ah, good point. EnigmaGroove (17:17:49): Do you think Redips is somehow connected to Sigma? ForteDeath (17:18:11): I think it might be possible. EnigmaGroove (17:18:21): They're both very similar. EnigmaGroove (17:18:29): They both have the same ideals. EnigmaGroove (17:18:36): A world of Reploids, free of humans. ForteDeath (17:19:05): Actually, I don't think Redips had the "no humans" ideal. EnigmaGroove (17:19:13): Really? ForteDeath (17:19:16): He just wanted to rule the Earth. EnigmaGroove (17:19:26): He seems to want humas out the way, though.... EnigmaGroove (17:19:43): Otherwise why would he talk about his "ideal"? EnigmaGroove (17:19:50): His vision of a better world? ForteDeath (17:19:49): Maybe because they might be able to cause more harm to him by creating a Reploid who could challenge him? EnigmaGroove (17:20:01): Ah, that's a good point. Read through if you want to see 'em. |
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| Hardman | Aug 31 2007, 05:40 PM Post #12 |
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That Hard Guy
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My memory isn't what it used to be, but didn't Spider 'die' off camera? I mean, I could be wrong (I played through CM ONCE, when it first came out, and found a lack of replay value), but if he dies off amera, there's no plot hole in Redips being spider because, seriously, how hard is it to shout about being in pain and fake death WHEN NO ONE CAN SEE YOU. Could be wrong. Again, haven't played in a while. |
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MM3: Hardman XBOX LIVE: Payer 404 | |
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| Marl Duothimir | Aug 31 2007, 06:20 PM Post #13 |
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Fighting for truth, justice, and the corn chip way!
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Hm...You may have a point, Hard Man. |
![]() Crimson Berserkers: Crush Crawfish Aftermath: Snakeman.EXE | |
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| Raijin | Aug 31 2007, 06:45 PM Post #14 |
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The "plot hole" answer is as good as it gets, but you can make some sense of it if you try hard enough. As for Redips supposedly "dying" from the explosion of Incentas, come on. Do you really think that holds up? The whole Spider "death" scene is pretty retarded to begin with. As it's been said, they could have just repaired his damages, but upon getting him back to base, he basically said "No, that's all right, I'd rather die. Just dump me down the garbage chute and forget about me" and the others basically said "okay". And then the big shocker is that he's not really hurt at all, he's just faked his death (badly) and moved into the shadows.
Robots blow up all the damn time, and other nearby robots don't get a friggin' scratch on them. And healing wounds? All a reploid has to do to "heal" is drink a Sub-Tank. Plot holes abound in this game, but that is not one of them. It makes far less sense that they left Spider for dead in the first place than it does for him to be up and running around right away like he never got hurt at all, because seriously, he never got hurt at all. There are other reasons that a non-Redips Spider character existed in the game at one point (and yes, that would mean the backwards spelling thing is a coincidence plotwise), but you have to go back to the beginning of the game to see them. The problem lies in examining Redips' motivations for assuming the Spider form and the uncanny speed in which he implemented it. Background: Redips wants SFM. He sends a bunch of soldiers to Giga City to get SFM. Soldiers don't come back. He sends more soldiers to Giga City. They don't come back either. Repeat for a long time until Redips reaches the bottom of the barrel and goes to the Maverick Hunters for help. These three special ops units are his last shot. He sends them to Giga City. A few hours later X sends him a report informing him that Shadow went Maverick and Zero disappeared. Redips is clearly shocked and pissed. Now what? Time to take matters into his own hands, apparently. So Redips sneaks into Giga City himself and tails X, unsure of whether he can trust the one remaining Hunter he hired or not, but makes sure he follows him around in case he gets the SFM for him. Now if you remember Chapter 2 fairly clearly, you'd note that after the cutscene where X reports to Redips, there's just less than a minute's worth of walking down a hall before you get to the cutscene introducing Spider. It's hard enough to believe at this point that Redips could have formulated his new plan, snuck into Giga City, assumed a suitable form, and found X, all in the time it takes X to walk through a couple of doors. If Redips had this plan already, and was already in Giga City, prepared to meet X this way, then why the hell did he send the Hunters in the first place? That happened the previous night. Did he know exactly how the Hunters' first encounter with Epsilon was going to go at this point? Doubt it. Add to this the complete inanity of Redips' "plan" assuming he's already Spider at this point. He wants to befriend X and let him lead him to the SFM, right? How's pretending to be a bounty hunter trying to kill him supposed to get on his good side? And what about all the crap with L? Did he just make that up on the spot? Or did Redips actually have a past with that guy? It's getting kinda convoluted at this point. I could go on, but I think the point's fairly clear. I think the real answer to these plot anomalies is that the writers were just making things up as they went along. They decided long after Spider's introduction that he was going to be the token backstabber, with the token twist ending, but they never bothered to go back and have that make any goddamn sense. A more fancy, plothole covering answer is that the Spider you meet the first time is actually Spider, and Redips only comes into replace him later, possibly killing the original in the process. Personally, I theorize he made the switch just before the battle with Jango, as that could account for "Spider's" recovery after Jango left him for dead, for the sudden loss of "Spider's" limp as soon as the boss battle starts, and the sudden change in "Spider's" battle style between when X fights him as an enemy and when he joins your party. It doesn't quite explain "Spider's" confessed backstory after Jango's defeat though, which I decide to cover with memory download. If you want to believe the "real Spider" was with you for longer, then he could have been in your party up to Chapter 4, I believe it's after that where you get the first hints that he's really Redips. |
![]() MM3: Snakeman AXE:Drillman.exe VI: Skullman.exe | |
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| Forute. Till The End | Aug 31 2007, 07:05 PM Post #15 |
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You know, Raij, that actually makes sense. But, somehow, I think that maybe there were actually moments where the real Spider and Redips swapped places. Maybe Spider was working for Redips in the first place, but there might have been times where Redips wasn't sure if Spider was really on his side. So, if this is true, what to do? Simple. Assume Spider's place, maybe tell him to take a short break, and cover for him? And after he's made sure that Spider's still on his side, he let's Spider go back to work spying? But, this poses a serious problem. Redips probably still doesn't trust Spider, so maybe he remains hidden in Giga City, unknown to Spider, and then, maybe at the end, there's a moment when Redips takes out Spider, and then assumes his place, and fakes his death? Does this make sense? Also, the reason you can be sure that Redips had to have been in Giga City at some point is obviously because of that glow after X gets another transmission from Redips. The question is, how does he manage to make is seem like he's still at the Federation, when he's actually in Giga City? Easy. He sends his transmision signal to the Federation, and uses it as a relay point. And let's face it: Who's gonna wanna try and actually trace the call? Does anyone suspect anything? No, so the chances of him getting caught are small, and so, they think he's still safe and sound at home, when he's probably only a few doors away from them. Does this theory make sense? |
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| Marl Duothimir | Aug 31 2007, 07:28 PM Post #16 |
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Fighting for truth, justice, and the corn chip way!
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Actually, both theories make sense, and Raijin's (apparently) ties into mine. Or at least, he was defending my theory with his. Or something. Damn, I confused myself again. |
![]() Crimson Berserkers: Crush Crawfish Aftermath: Snakeman.EXE | |
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| Raijin | Aug 31 2007, 07:33 PM Post #17 |
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No, none of it makes any sense. There's nothing to suggest Redips and Spider are in cahoots. If anything, Spider's actions in Chapter 2 eliminate any possibility of him having the slightest connection to Redips. As for routing the call through his home base while hiding in Giga City, I'm not arguing with that only because it's obvious, and I don't know why you even brought it up. |
![]() MM3: Snakeman AXE:Drillman.exe VI: Skullman.exe | |
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| Forute. Till The End | Aug 31 2007, 07:40 PM Post #18 |
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I dunno why I brought it up. And I was saying it as a what if. Not as what might be the truth. But your theory makes sense. But then, if you think about what Redip mentions about Epsilon, then would it seem that maybe Redips might have partnered with Epsilon? If this is true, and it's a what if again, then maybe Redips lost faith in Epsilon, and then turned to the Maverick Hunters after sending soldiers, as his last ace in the hole to gain SFM? When you think about it, it could be a reason for Epsilon and his gang being branded as Mavericks without proof, and when you think about the cutscene with him talking to X and the others, he seems quite sane. |
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| Raijin | Aug 31 2007, 08:02 PM Post #19 |
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That doesn't make any sense either. Where the hell are you getting all this? |
![]() MM3: Snakeman AXE:Drillman.exe VI: Skullman.exe | |
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| Forute. Till The End | Aug 31 2007, 08:18 PM Post #20 |
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How could it not make sense? Well, there might be another possibility. Redips might have been using the Rebellion Army the whole time, and possibly hoped that they might lead him to the SFM. But they probably weren't able to, and were labeled Mavericks because they might reveal that Redips was using them to get it. And you said yourself that you doubted that Redips knew what the outcome of the encounter of X and Zero's encounter with Epsilon would be. Which probably suggests that he felt that X would be able to take him out the whole time. Well, in Chapter 9, he was right, wasn't he? However, after Redips gets the Supra Force Metal from the group, he plans to set the blame of all his crimes on X and his friends. Which has to mean that Redips had originally conspired with the Rebellion Army for Supra Force Metal. Edit: Oh, great, now we've gone from Spider to Redips. |
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| Marl Duothimir | Aug 31 2007, 08:39 PM Post #21 |
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Fighting for truth, justice, and the corn chip way!
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I'm dropping out of this conversation until I can stop confusing myself. |
![]() Crimson Berserkers: Crush Crawfish Aftermath: Snakeman.EXE | |
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| Wire Sponge | Sep 2 2007, 03:06 PM Post #22 |
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B33R!!!
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you have to remember one thing: the plot twist makes no actual sense to begin with. and capcom was not realy creative to link redips with spider by spelling his name backwards. remember that this game has a disabeled robot in a weelchair from a warwound or something(aile), and litlle reploids talking about growing up. |
CIA: Wire Sponge![]() Segata Sanshiro...SEGATA SANSHIROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! | |
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| Enigma | Sep 3 2007, 01:48 PM Post #23 |
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I have a....shadow in my title?
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Actually, that's not a bad theory. He was able to find the Hunters' exact location after they defeated Epsilon, so he mst have had some knowledge prior to that. On the other hand, he may have just taken the obvious route, though his timing is a tad suspicious. He most likely worked with Epsilon, than decided he was of no use once he failed to get the SFM. |
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| Forute. Till The End | Sep 3 2007, 02:27 PM Post #24 |
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I thought of something else. What if Redips was in Giga City right after X and co. were in Lagrano Ruins? Even though he probably didn't expect the outcome of their fight, what if he did? Before anyone says it doesn't make sense, allow, for the moment, it is true. If so, then it would have to mean that Redips actually was Spider at that same point in Chapter 2. Only, it doesn't make sense that he would be trying to kill X as a way to get on his good side, credit to the Thunder God for pointing that out. Thing is, if this is true, then it would have to mean that Redips, as Spider, was holding back on X, which might imply that he still believed X could beat Epsilon. However, this still doesn't make sense, because if Redips wanted, he probably could've beaten Jango on his own. But maybe he was probably smart enough to not truly fight all out, preffering to seem like a low-life bounty hunter. Which might also mean that he let himself get badly injured, so as to limp. And as for the no limping in the battle, there was no limping because it's not supposed to show limping, because it has to go with the BATTlE. Since Spider's at full HP when the fight begins, he's not SUPPOSED to look injured. At least that's how I see it. However, it's probably obvious that it was Redips the whole time. IF this theory holds true, which most likely isn't true. BUT...what if the Spider that attacked Botos at the Melda Ore Plant WAS the real Spider? After all, why would Redips need to pretend to be Spider when he's most likely strong enough to beat Botos without trying? Of course, I have the feeling this contradicts what I said before, about Redips holding back his power so as not to look suspicious. But maybe, if you think about what Redips says after you beat him in his normal form, about playing "buddy buddy" with X and the others, he probably didn't want to be Spider anymore. But, supposing this theory is true, how did Redips manage to copy Spider's DNA in the first place? Please don't end up saying it doesn't make sense...not at first...please? |
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| BubbleMan011 | Sep 4 2007, 06:02 PM Post #25 |
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Gospel Enforcer
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Spider fell into a plot hole. That's the best I can come up with. I hate losing party members in RPG games, so to hear this "story" of Redips being Spider all the time ticked me off.
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-Bubble Man, formally ShadowBlade3000Super Ultra Chibi Kawaii Scuba Hampster of Doom!! | |
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| Neolan | Sep 4 2007, 06:20 PM Post #26 |
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Gospel Enforcer
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How about this? Redips being Spider spelled backwards was a complete coincidence, Spider died to save them all from being exploded, Redips told a bigass lie to discourage X and make him loose heart, THE END. |
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Laziness is bliss. Deep Impact: Aqua Man | |
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| Forute. Till The End | Sep 9 2007, 04:04 PM Post #27 |
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I wonder why none of us thought of that in the first place... |
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| Blazeman | Sep 9 2007, 11:53 PM Post #28 |
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Lowly Bandit
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Because some time in between that, one of the characters (I'm not sure if it was Cinnamon or a medical NPC) mentioned something about Spider not wanting himself repaired as she tried to do so. If he was COMPLETELY out of commission, he wouldn't be able to communicate that. Also, Marino mentioned something about Spider having a Chameleon Chip, which is basically the same thing that gives Axl his shapeshifting capabilities. Since Spider had a later model (obviously, as Axl was the prototype), he could hold the illusion longer, even through heavy damage (that is, if he was Redips.) |
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| Wire Sponge | Sep 10 2007, 11:23 AM Post #29 |
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B33R!!!
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and steping out of light wile making the transforming sound efect wile X can see him with no problems also does not help. |
CIA: Wire Sponge![]() Segata Sanshiro...SEGATA SANSHIROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! | |
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| Rebel40000 | Sep 10 2007, 11:24 AM Post #30 |
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Zvarri!
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I believe Marino didn't exactly state that Spider had it... I think it was more along the lines that Spider was looking into the topic like she was or something. I can't exactly remember, it's been too long since I've played CM. Even if I am wrong, not a biggie. Spider having the Chameleon Chip would make sense anyway, considering that he has the exact same Hyper Form of Axl which I contribute to them both being New Generation Reploids. Which again means that Spider during all of this had to of been Redips. Sure, the real Spider may have been a New Gen. regardless, but we may never know. If you ask me, Jango killing Spider at the beginning and Redips taking over soon afterward makes the most sense. Sure, it makes you wonder where he managed to get all of that info on Aile in the first place... but a part of me feels that Redips completely BS'd the entire thing (given R's line right after his explanation, although that could be interpreted in many different ways). |
![]() "Take a good look, everyone! Unable to find a rival worthy of my genius, I was forced to create one by myself! Here I am! The tragic clown..." Magna Centipede of Code: Island Attackers Ring Man of Cossack's Comrades | |
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