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True Revolutions in Megaman Games
Topic Started: Sep 16 2007, 02:08 AM (1,116 Views)
Gauntlet101010
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Well, well, WELL! An unexpected debate has occurred int he Perfect Memories forums! And it's surprising because I haven't actually been interested in debating Megaman AT ALL lately. For years even. But this is mre interesting.

Basically someone made this thread there with a list of revolutionary MM concepts. It was pretty much for shits and giggles with just whatever being tossed in, but I see one things listed that doesn't really .... cover it. Which is listing "Playing as Zero."

While that was revolutionary, I don't think it quite covers it. I think the true revolution is "playing as someone other than Megaman". The forumer argues that Zero is the most important playable character, the most unique, the first, and is therefore the only one that deserves listing.

I counter that Zero is not playable in many Megaman games, but the idea of playing as another character has become a staple in the Megaman series now. It's no longer adequate to just play as Megaman, so most MM games offer up another character - or several characters in the case of EXE. This has the added effect of diminishing Megaman's role in his own series - including series where Zero isn't present (EXE and classic mainly).

Now, the guy seems pretty bent on not conceding my point, but it was still an interesting train of thought. So I port the thread over here! My own list of Revolutionary Rockman ideas!

Now, I'll lay some ground rules.

1) Nothing in Rockman 1 is revolutionary. Because it started the series. It's not a revolution if it started things off.

2) It has to be a successful revolution. Meaning lasting impact. Dash had a revolutionary system, but it didn't take.

So ... the list ...

Playing as someone other than Megaman (for reasons I just mentioned)

Support Units (Rush, Tango, etc - mainly because the added characters have become staples int he MM mythos)

The Mega Buster (MM4, etc)

The Slide / Dash (MM3, etc)

The "Wily Fakeout" (Wily pretending it's not him, but it really is. MM3 - 7, R&F, MM5GB, caused the stagnation of the series, but it stuck)

Choosing from less than 8 levels to start (MMGB, MM7, 8, R&F - seen as something of a "downgrade", but it did create more storytelling possibilities and it stuck)

The Wily "saucer attack" (every classic game since 4, he needs a new final form)

Invulnerability after taking damage (MM2 plays VERY differently than MM1 thanks to this)

The addition of and subsequent removal of Passwords (Part of the old fun of MM was writing down passwords .... that's never gonns come back and the internet has really changed this)

Tanks (MM2 and beond, E-tanks, M-tanks, sub tanks, etc)

8 bosses (MM2 and beyond .... eight has become a number really associated with MM)

An intro Stage (X1 and beyond)

Wall Clinging (X1 and beyond)

Armors (X1 and beyond)

Chargable Weapons (X1 onwards, it really made the X series futuristic and amped up the gameplay)

Zero, as a character (X1, practically took over the series)

The Zeta Saber weapon (X3 and beyond, more for it's endless prevelance as a usable weapon throught the series)

Multiple endings (X3 onwards)

The move to polygons (X7 onwards, the X series has never been the same ... PU included. Dash is seen as a failed attempt)

Less consistant bosses (Zero 2, CM, X8, etc)

Classic Megaman theme song (MM2, MM4, MM5, PF, PB, etc)

The exe series is different enough to warrent it's own list. Too tired to get into it. I'll admit, my intrest in the series ends about here, so here endeth my list.
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Music References: Many Megaman games make at least musical references to their older counterparts. Off the top of my head, The Robot Museum in MM7 remixes three RM themes (Guts, Heat, Snake), and the X series has some overlay, I know.

That's all I got at the moment.
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I dunno if remixing old music counts as "revolutionary". For one thing, it's impossible to introduce something like that at the beginning since there's no music to reference until the series is a few years old already. And rehashing old music is hard to consider "new". Not that I don't like it.
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I kinda doubt it could be considered "revolutionary," but here goes:

Cameos (MM7 or X1, whichever came first) Things like the famed "1-Up Bubble Bat" in Armored Armadillo's stage or the background RMs in glass cases in the MM7 museum stage. Not to mention Chill Penguin and Blizzard Buffalo in Frost Walrus' stage.

EDIT: Oh yeah, don't forget Lan's poster of Classic Duo in BN2.
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Again, cameos kinda depend on old material to exist, so it's hard to consider that a revolution. I guess there'd be an exception for cameos from other series', since that's something that actually could have existed in MM1, but didn't.
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does changing into the enemy count? that started with axl from X7 into X8, command mission, ZX, ZX advent and the EXE series from 4 onwards.
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I noticed a couple things missing from that list.

1) Passwords (RM2) - Remember how you'd have to play through the entire game in one sitting in the original Rockman? The password feature effectively eliminated this.

2) Energy Tanks (RM2) - Again, the original Rockman was a complete mother@#$!%# to beat because you couldn't refill your energy before a big boss fight? Again, Rockman 2 changed the rules and made the game easier.

3) Eight Robot Masters (RM2) - Do I really need to explain this?
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1) Passwords (RM2) - Remember how you'd have to play through the entire game in one sitting in the original Rockman? The password feature effectively eliminated this.

2) Energy Tanks (RM2) - Again, the original Rockman was a complete mother@#$!%# to beat because you couldn't refill your energy before a big boss fight? Again, Rockman 2 changed the rules and made the game easier.

3) Eight Robot Masters (RM2) - Do I really need to explain this? [/color] [/QUOTE]
1. Different Armors. (MM6)
Up until 6, you were stuck with your slide, and not much else. After 6, you had a choice. You could go it plain, or you could fly, or have the abiltity to punch through weakened walls.

2. Dialouge. (MM2)
Eventually, there would be dialouge within the game. In Megaman, all you did was destroy. There was no thinking behind it. Then, when 2 was released, IT happened. Dialouge between characters and a in-game plot description. It's become a standard, and it's just stuck with the series.

That's my veiw.
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Benjamin,Sep 16 2007
09:55 AM
2) Energy Tanks (RM2) - Again, the original Rockman was a complete mother@#$!%# to beat because you couldn't refill your energy before a big boss fight? Again, Rockman 2 changed the rules and made the game easier.

It didn't exactly stick. Mega Man 8 got rid of the energy tanks.

But Sub-Tanks in the X Series i think stuck, and they always had to be filled manually.

Rehashes of the first game in each series. Mega Man Powered Up and Maverick Hunter X, and i got a feeling a rehash of Mega Man Zero will come about in another five or ten years. (Not good for me, since i'm not really intrested in the rehash games.)
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Rehashes of MM1 or X1 aren't revolutionary. They're just re-releases of old games. It's just Capcom going back to their Street Fighter 2 roots and thinking they're being clever. The only reasont hey didn't continue with it is because their idea was a failure anyway.

I already have passwords listed. And their subsequent removal. It's #9 on my list.

8 bosses .... yeah, that stuck. And it was true for the X series too.

Energy Tank - We can have tanks in general. Even if they were taken out of 8, they really did become a staple of the series and made it into mangas and the TV show. Everyone complains that 8 felt odd without them.

Dialogue - Well, this is just a technical intervention, now isn't it? The technicals tuff just gets better over time.
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I'd say the whole "Wily is s behind it!" schtick is a revolution. From MM4 to MM6, there was always some "new" villain behind the thing, and then it turns out....OMGZ!! It was really Wily? Big surprise. It even carried along to the X series: in every game (with the exception of X8/Command Mission), no matter who the villain was, Sigma would always appear as the final boss. Not very original, eh?
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The idea about Wily NOT being the final boss in just one game in the series was a revolution too. Mega Man V, the last Mega Man Game Boy game. And Lumine, not Sigma, was the final boss in the last Mega Man X game. I never played any Mega Man Zero games, but would i be wrong to say that this trend followed into the Zero series?
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Well....no, I don't think so. The first game's final boss was Copy X's seraph form, the second game had a Dark Elf-fuelled Elpizo (admit it, you saw that coming), and the last two games had Weil. Not bad for someone who doesn't like the series, eh? ^_^
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MMZ4 had Weil, but MMZ3 had Omega.

Ah, but here's something. The Zero series and series after that gets rid of having the final boss being some last-minute "surprise" in all of their games.
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A fire-themed Maverick in every X series game except X3. That could be another theme.
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Final stage music patterns. In the first four games, there were music themes used for two consecutive final stages, the only exception being the last two stages in MM2. In MM5 and MM6 one theme covered all the stages in each castle. In MMX and MM8 each stage had its own theme.

Classic game lengths. MM4, MM5 and MM6 were all 16 stages long, with 8 Robot Masters, 4 against whoever was originally introduced as the final boss and 4 against Wily.

Final boss battle music. In MM4, MM5 and MM6 the same theme was used for every boss battle except the final one.

Strange how similar the last three NES Mega Man games are, isn't it?
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Iga
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Re-use of Navis throughout the BN games. That should be pretty self-explanatory.
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Quote:
 
The idea about Wily NOT being the final boss was a revolution too. Mega Man V, the last Mega Man Game Boy game. And Lumine, not Sigma, was the final boss in the last Mega Man X game. I never played any Mega Man Zero games, but would i be wrong to say that this trend followed into the Zero series?


I think that Zero 2 deserves this, not Mega Man V. While Mega Man V GB didn't have Wily... think about it: that was the ONLY Classic game that was an exception, and nothing really took off from it. It wasn't until Zero 2 came out where it all changed (followed by MMXCM, X8, Zero 3, 4, ZX, and now ZXA). Since CM and X8 was made AFTER Zero 2, they couldn't possibly start the trend, and Zero 1 could not start it because there was nothing BEFORE it.

Quote:
 
Ah, but here's something. The Zero series and series after that gets rid of having the final boss being some last-minute "surprise" in all of their games.


Weil coming back at the end of Zero 4 wasn't a surprise? :P

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A fire-themed Maverick in every X series game except X3. That could be another theme.


That's a "theme." There is nothing "revolutionary" about it. C'mon, people.
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Rebel40000,Sep 16 2007
11:17 PM
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Ah, but here's something. The Zero series and series after that gets rid of having the final boss being some last-minute "surprise" in all of their games.


Weil coming back at the end of Zero 4 wasn't a surprise? :P

You're right. Since it was revealed that he was pretty much a dictator and the main oppressive force in the very beginning of the game really fooled me into believing that someone else would be the final boss. And when he was the second to last boss that you would fight, I NEVER saw it coming when he would also be the final boss as well.
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Rebel40000,Sep 16 2007
07:17 PM
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The idea about Wily NOT being the final boss was a revolution too. Mega Man V, the last Mega Man Game Boy game. And Lumine, not Sigma, was the final boss in the last Mega Man X game. I never played any Mega Man Zero games, but would i be wrong to say that this trend followed into the Zero series?


I think that Zero 2 deserves this, not Mega Man V. While Mega Man V GB didn't have Wily... think about it: that was the ONLY Classic game that was an exception, and nothing really took off from it. It wasn't until Zero 2 came out where it all changed (followed by MMXCM, X8, Zero 3, 4, ZX, and now ZXA). Since CM and X8 was made AFTER Zero 2, they couldn't possibly start the trend, and Zero 1 could not start it because there was nothing BEFORE it.

What i meant to say was that all but one game in a series had the same final boss. All Wily except MMV and all Sigma except MMX8.
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Gauntlet101010
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Quote:
 
I'd say the whole "Wily is s behind it!" schtick is a revolution. From MM4 to MM6, there was always some "new" villain behind the thing, and then it turns out....OMGZ!! It was really Wily? Big surprise. It even carried along to the X series: in every game (with the exception of X8/Command Mission), no matter who the villain was, Sigma would always appear as the final boss. Not very original, eh?

Already there. Gotta read the list to add to it, guys.

Quote:
 
The idea about Wily NOT being the final boss was a revolution too. Mega Man V, the last Mega Man Game Boy game. And Lumine, not Sigma, was the final boss in the last Mega Man X game. I never played any Mega Man Zero games, but would i be wrong to say that this trend followed into the Zero series?

Like it was said, nothing came from Sunstar. It didn't start a trend. And Sigma was a non-Wily boss longs before X2 came around, although it started a new "Same boss every time" theme.

The Zero series had it's good points, but I dunno if it was long enough to establish a variety of final bosses. There's only four games in there......

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A fire-themed Maverick in every X series game except X3. That could be another theme.

Having a theme isn't revolutionary.... It's just sad that Capcom isn't creative. X3 also had alot of fish Mavericks too.

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Not revolutionary.

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Final stage music patterns. In the first four games, there were music themes used for two consecutive final stages, the only exception being the last two stages in MM2. In MM5 and MM6 one theme covered all the stages in each castle. In MMX and MM8 each stage had its own theme.

I dunno, this just seems like Capcom getting better at their games to me.

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Classic game lengths. MM4, MM5 and MM6 were all 16 stages long, with 8 Robot Masters, 4 against whoever was originally introduced as the final boss and 4 against Wily.

Doesn't this fall under "betetr hardware"? And how many stages did all the other MM games have? If it held trus for the SNES series and the X series, you might have a point there.

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Final boss battle music. In MM4, MM5 and MM6 the same theme was used for every boss battle except the final one.

MM1 had different music for Wily ..... so did MM3, I think. I'm not sure musical patterns fall under "revolutionary". It just seems like Capcom doing a better job.

Although the MM2 theme might be revolutionary. It's become the theme of the classic series and has reappeared numerous times.

EXE stuff - I might add a sublist soon, save ideas for then.
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Gauntlet101010,Sep 16 2007
11:31 PM
The Zero series had it's good points, but I dunno if it was long enough to establish a variety of final bosses.  There's only four games in there......

There's also the series beyond MMZ. Or EXE, whichever came first. Copy X, Elpizo, Omega, Weil, Life Virus, Gospel, Alpha, Duo, Nebula Grey, the Cybeasts, Andromeda, and Viper are established as the final bosses of their respective games as the story progresses, and they end being so after all. Whereas in Legends you have Juno that comes out of nowhere (I think), in X there's Lumine and Sigma, and Classic there's Wily that appear suddenly near the end of the game to be the real final boss.

EDIT: Actually, the Legends series counts as well, seeing as there really wasn't any main villain in the first Legends game, so Juno's sudden appearance doesn't really count as a surprise, and though I've never played Legends 2, Sera is apparently the main villain and the final boss.
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Makenshi,Sep 16 2007
06:39 PM
Gauntlet101010,Sep 16 2007
11:31 PM
The Zero series had it's good points, but I dunno if it was long enough to establish a variety of final bosses.  There's only four games in there......

There's also the series beyond MMZ. Or EXE, whichever came first. Copy X, Elpizo, Omega, Weil, Life Virus, Gospel, Alpha, Duo, Nebula Grey, the Cybeasts, Andromeda, and Viper are established as the final bosses of their respective games as the story progresses, and they end being so after all. Whereas in Legends you have Juno that comes out of nowhere (I think), in X there's Lumine and Sigma, and Classic there's Wily that appear suddenly near the end of the game to be the real final boss.

EDIT: Actually, the Legends series counts as well, seeing as there really wasn't any main villain in the first Legends game, so Juno's sudden appearance doesn't really count as a surprise, and though I've never played Legends 2, Sera is apparently the main villain and the final boss.

Well, what we're arguing here is whether or not something had a consistant boss or villain, which doesn't equate to "Wily or Sigma." It's series dependant.

- Legends had two games. Not long enough to see if it held true. I don't know much about it either, was the final boss a Reaverbot or not?

- Well, how many X games didn't have Sigma as the final boss, then? Is it only X8 and CM? And didn't X8 have Sigma in it ANYWAY? And the series ended at X8, so it wasn't quite revolutionary.

- Ahh, but who was BEHIND all the EXE battles? Wily, or someone attached to Wily. EXE1 was Wily. EXE2 was retconned to be masterminded by Wily. EXE3 was Wily again. EXE4 was the son of Wily. EXE5 was the son of Wily again (although Wily did fight him on this one, so maybe it doesn't count). And EXE6 was Wily.

And if you're arguing the REAL final bosses for the EXE games, aren't they all Bass?

So, Wily was attached to every single one of the EXE series games' final battles. It actually bugged me that I always, somehow, thought they'd have a unique villain, but it never quite happened.

- XZ is too new to tell. Only one game has been released, after all. Ditto Star Force.

If you're arguing consistant and predictable bosses, new games have to be discounted almost immediately. Because there is no pattern established, see?

Zero has the strongest case, but it's belied by the fact that half the series has a consistant boss and it's at the tail end of it. And if you think of the enemy as "Neo Arcadia", then it has an even MORE consistant boss.

Edit:
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I think that Zero 2 deserves this, not Mega Man V. While Mega Man V GB didn't have Wily... think about it: that was the ONLY Classic game that was an exception, and nothing really took off from it. It wasn't until Zero 2 came out where it all changed (followed by MMXCM, X8, Zero 3, 4, ZX, and now ZXA). Since CM and X8 was made AFTER Zero 2, they couldn't possibly start the trend, and Zero 1 could not start it because there was nothing BEFORE it.

This is a pretty good argument in favor of no consistant bosses, but XZ woudlnt' count because there's nothing before it.
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Gauntlet101010,Sep 16 2007
06:31 PM
The Zero series had it's good points, but I dunno if it was long enough to establish a variety of final bosses.  There's only four games in there......

Yes, but you cannot deny the fact that games after Zero 1 stopped being so predictable with using the same final boss. Zero 2 was the first in line, followed by the rest of the Zero games, Command Mission, X8, and now the ZX series. So yeah, it did have a lasting impact by showing that Capcom could be original and not mess things up (like X6).
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Rebel40000,Sep 16 2007
07:20 PM
Gauntlet101010,Sep 16 2007
06:31 PM
The Zero series had it's good points, but I dunno if it was long enough to establish a variety of final bosses.  There's only four games in there......

Yes, but you cannot deny the fact that games after Zero 1 stopped being so predictable with using the same final boss. Zero 2 was the first in line, followed by the rest of the Zero games, Command Mission, X8, and now the ZX series. So yeah, it did have a lasting impact by showing that Capcom could be original and not mess things up (like X6).

Yeah, I edited my response. That's a pretty good argument.

But Zero was always a bit more story based. Omega was clearly controlled by Wiel and Wiel was the villain behind Z4. And, if you look at is from the "Zero VS Neo Arcadia" standpoint, it never really changed except for Z2.

Still, maybe "Less consistant final bosses and overall villains" is a better attribute. Because the Z series *has* a consistant villain, but it's not the final boss ..... so it's inconsistant.
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Gauntlet101010,Sep 16 2007
07:24 PM
Rebel40000,Sep 16 2007
07:20 PM
Gauntlet101010,Sep 16 2007
06:31 PM
The Zero series had it's good points, but I dunno if it was long enough to establish a variety of final bosses.  There's only four games in there......

Yes, but you cannot deny the fact that games after Zero 1 stopped being so predictable with using the same final boss. Zero 2 was the first in line, followed by the rest of the Zero games, Command Mission, X8, and now the ZX series. So yeah, it did have a lasting impact by showing that Capcom could be original and not mess things up (like X6).

Yeah, I edited my response. That's a pretty good argument.

But Zero was always a bit more story based. Omega was clearly controlled by Wiel and Wiel was the villain behind Z4. And, if you look at is from the "Zero VS Neo Arcadia" standpoint, it never really changed except for Z2.

Still, maybe "Less consistant final bosses and overall villains" is a better attribute. Because the Z series *has* a consistant villain, but it's not the final boss ..... so it's inconsistant.

Yeah, the Zero series is pretty story-driven, so I can agree with that. Plus, ZX's final boss is also a result of what happened in Zero 4, so in many ways ZX can be listed as such as well (you'd have to play the game to really understand, though, and I don't feel like typing spoilers).
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Bass was a secret boss. I'm talking about the fact that the VERY last person/thing you FIGHT before the credits roll, the final boss, was consistent.

I'm just pointing out that in the Legends, Zero, EXE, Star Force, and ZX series, EVERY SINGLE game SO FAR has a consistent final boss. The Classic series is disqualified because of 4, 5, and 6, and the X series are disqualified because of X3, X6, and X8.
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Makenshi,Sep 16 2007
07:32 PM
Bass was a secret boss. I'm talking about the fact that the VERY last person/thing you FIGHT before the credits roll, the final boss, was consistent.

I'm just pointing out that in the Legends, Zero, EXE, Star Force, and ZX series, EVERY SINGLE game SO FAR has a consistent final boss. The Classic series is disqualified because of 4, 5, and 6, and the X series are disqualified because of X3, X6, and X8.

Do you measn INconsistant?

The EXE series was very story based. Sure the "final" boss (which wasn't really the final boss) wasn't the same character, but the guy who controlled or created them were all Wily-centric. It doesn't count as inconsistant at all if Wily turns out to be the force of all evil.

But I'm not quite sure what you're citing, really .... Are you agreeing that the series has inconsistant bosses or not? And first game sin a series don't really count as having "different final bosses" .... because they establish the norm.
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Sorry, I'm not very good at wording things *sweatdrop*

When I said consistent, I meant how that the first person that is presented in the story of the game as the possible final boss IS the final boss.
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