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This makes my blood boil
Topic Started: Oct 4 2010, 07:15 PM (382 Views)
Byron
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Remember how we were debating the health care bill a while ago, and how we had mixed feelings on it? Remember that?

Well, I have found an article (thanks to another website that I frequent) that sorta dies into that, yet leads me to another point.

The author is kinda going after the Republicans, the Tea Party and the entire right wing in general in this article (and even admits that he doesn't like them), but given the event that sparked his outrage, it's not to hard to see why he is so angry.

Pay attention to Mike Huckabee's statements in this article; they have made me extremely angry and caused me to abandon all hope for the American Political system. I'll just make sure that Canada's political parties don't go down this path and leave the fixing the American system to the American people.

Selfish morons, all of them...
> I spend quite a bit of time here nowadays. Sorry for any inconvenience...
> I also have a blog now!
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Mad Mags

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While I'd hate to defend either of the major parties at this point, let's play devil's advocate with Huckabee.

I was glad about only a handful of things passed in the so-called ObamaCare Bill. One of them was the elimination of the preexisting condition clause that all for-profit insurers had always maintained. With my or most of my immediate family's health history, we'd all be screwed, save for the more expensive non-profit insurers, like Blue Cross/Blue Shield.

But from a business standpoint, Huckabee is in fact applying some cold logic here. Its already been demonstrated that the insurance industry isn't going to be so easily tamed. Like any business, once they are given a new cost, in this case the taking on of potentially millions of currently sick customers that they didn't want, the insurers are going to have to find some way to pass the costs on, namely to the healthier customers. Otherwise, they'll die. That's business, folks.

Unless you're GM or Chrysler. Then the government just bails you out and buys your failing ass.

Hmm...If the Dems are actually learning from recent events, then maybe they really are trying to bankrupt the insurance industry, prompting another government take over, thus indirectly achieving the Holy Grail of the American liberal- a government-sponsored health care system.

Gotta say...that'd be brilliant if that's the sort of chess game they're playing. I'd be super fucking pissed if it did, but I'd have to admit that it'd be a game well played. Sadly, I don't think any politician on either side is that organized or forward thinking.

Anywho, back on topic.

I guess what Huckabee is trying to say is that while this health care bill sounds darling on paper, it carries some really dire consequences down the road. In other words, its going to cost us down the line. He just said it in a really uncouth manner that can be easily torn asunder by bleeding hearts.

All of this is a direct result of these idiots on Capitol Hill refusing to use their goddamned heads and think this through. The Republicans refused to compromise, knowing they didn't have the numbers they needed to properly block the bill, while the Dems refused to look at the big picture as they tried to make themselves look like modern day civil rights heroes, which is so fucked up on many levels.

If only...IF ONLY some people with some damned business sense were up there at the time. They could have perhaps convinced them that the infrastructure is fragile at best, and this burden will crush it sooner rather than later.

But hey...Sounded great on paper, right?
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Byron
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I understand your point about this being sorta the fault of both Democrats and Republicains, and how neither of them used their heads when passing the bill through. I will also admit that Mr. Huckabee may not have meant for his comment to be taken literally. However, the fact still remains that he compaired people with pre-existing medical conditions to burning homes and said that niether deserved to recieve insurance because it was too late to save them. Given that he was talking about living, breathing human beings, this gives him the apperence of being a cruel and callous man.

You might not like what I'm about to say, but comments like the ones Mike Huckabee made and the very fact that we are discussing Health Care in business terms only convinces me that Health Care should be a Social Survice or, barring that, accessable to everyone reguardless of what tax bracket they happen to live in. Health Care and the treatment of human beings should not be treated as a commodity to be bought and sold on a whim; there is a huge difference between a burning house and someone who needs chemotherepy, namely that the house is an object and can be replaced, while the Cancer patient is a living-breathing human being who needs that treatment to SURVIVE.

And that is the biggest problem with America's Health Care system. It objectifies people and treats their health like a fancy car; a privalidge that is determined by how much money you have and how much you are willing to pay. However, it shouldn't be a priveledge; it should be something that is garenteed to all citizens, reguardless of who they are. Once people figure that out, then the real change can begin.

(As you can tell, issues involving the lives of other human beings are kind of a big deal to me.)
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Mad Mags

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I understand where you're coming from. I just fundamentally disagree with it as it pertains to America.

Our system isn't perfect. Far from it. But no system is. Dig deep enough and you can find dehumanizing traits in every system.

Politics in general can be seen as business. Politicians routinely sell out their beliefs in order to pander to their demographic, all in the name of holding on to that cushy job with all the right perks. These people don't give a flying fuck about people like you and me. They'll lie through their teeth to say otherwise, but at the end of the day, its still a lie.

Which is why I don't want them in my life any more than I need them to be. I sure as hell don't want them involved in something as important as my actual, physical and mental well being. These people don't know the first thing about my health, and yet they claim they're qualified to run the system? I can't even rely on these people to properly add more than three numbers together.

What, am I supposed to trust that these guys will appoint someone earnest who knows what they're doing to run the system? Or will they get some of their asshole friends on board to profit and leech off the system while fucking it up? I don't want to take that risk. Our system is corrupt enough as is without involving my friggin' body in it.

Instead, I'm much better off with the old capitalist system. At least I know exactly where I stand in that relationship. I hate the insurance company, and they hate me. However, if they want my money, they have a vested interest in keeping me well enough to pay the tab.

Don't kid yourself by thinking that because one system may be government regulated that they think any better of you. You're still just a number on a piece of paper to some clerk a thousand miles away from you somewhere. There's no hugs and kisses waiting for you at the hospital to make your boo boo feel aw betta in either system. Neither system really, truly gives a shit about its customers' individual well being. So long as the vast masses are relatively healthy and are paying more than they're costing, the model works.

Another big difference is that if I don't like how my insurer does business, I can take my money elsewhere. If the insurance company wants my business, they'll need to stay competitive. With a government run plan, there's no such option. If I don't like they way the government is spending my dollars, then I'm pretty much shit outta luck until I can elect someone who can fix it, and as we all know there's no guarantee that'll happen in democracy. Fuck, my government has been spending money like its going out of style for as long as I've been on this Earth- the last thing I want to do is give them is the okay to spend even more of it! Just look at what they did with MediCare and MedicAid...

I don't think it should be guaranteed at all. I think our country already guarantees a lot of awesome stuff as is. Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Its when the government starts "guaranteeing" all that other stuff when things get stupid and complicated. I for one don't believe I should be entitled to anything aside from the above statement. I like being free enough to pursuit my own path to happiness under my own rules.

If you want real freedom as far as the medical system is concerned, then why don't we stop blaming all of our woes on corporations and how they "don't care about little old me". I don't care about anyone but the people I converse with regularly, and neither do the corporations. If you don't like it, the you have the option of not talking to me/ doing business with them. I think that's beautiful.

Why don't we stop with the bleeding heart bullshit and start using our minds to solve the problem, instead of raw emotion? Why don't we make it easier for these insurers to do business?

Hey, here's an idea! Let's examine why privatized health care is so expensive in this country in the first place. Any takers? Hell, I'll go first.

Its because Americans are:

A) Lazy.

B) Fat.

C) Crooked.

D) All of the above.

I'm gonna go with D.


See, around 30 or 40 years ago, people here started to get into this habit of suing the shit outta their doctors. Now, there have always been legit reasons to do so, but around this time people started to realize they can milk these evil, rich, golf playing bastards for millions of dollars. Who was covering the doctors' tabs? It wasn't them- it was the doctors' insurance policy that, guess what now, insured against getting sued!

Where does the insurer then get the capital to replace what they lost? They can't up the premiums to that one doctor, as per their contract (its not a loan, after all). Instead, they pass along the cost to everyone else in the form of a rate hike.

So, in this sue-happy world, be really careful about who you cheer for in these malpractice cases.

As far as Americans being fat, well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that an obese society is an expensive society to maintain, especially if we're living longer. Fifty years ago,, Americans were paying something like 5% of their yearly income on health care, and 17% on food. Today, its reversed; 10% on food and 16% on health care.

This cheap shit fast food that we so eagerly shove down our throats (cause we're in hurry to march on with our oh-so-important lives!) is literally killing us and costing us huge amounts of cash. Can anyone see the correlation here? Cheap food is garbage food, i.e. fatty food. The fatter you are, the more you're gonna need in health services.

This passed summer during the Mech's Meet in the Metro Toronto area, I was routinely amazed by all the people walking, running, cycling, and generally exersizing. I don't see that shit here in Michigan, and we're only 300 miles away. Genetically, we're not too different, if at all. It displayed, once again, that my theory that the culture gap between Americans and Canadians (and the rest of the world) is wider than either of us know without exploring the other personally.

And how are we all crooked? Well, none of this is news to any of us. We hear it every frickin' day in some form or another. But Americans just don't care. So long as things are going good for them right now, they couldn't care less about "cost this" and "health care that". This is all boring shit that appears on CSPAN that only losers watch. They have to TXT their Twitter accounts (or some such bullshit). Oh wait, you can't, on account of your fucking thumbs being the size of most average weighted people's toes.

This is why I don't think socialized health care can work over here. We're not set up for it, and Americans are far, FAR too selfish, self destructive, fat, and lazy for it to work. What works for Canada will not, I repeat WILL NOT, work here. Period. Americans like to make all sorts of snide remarks about Canada being a part of the US and "not knowing it", but that's a load of bullshit. The culture divide is great, my friend.

The solution I'd offer, then, is to make it more difficult for people to sue doctors for bullshit malpractice cases.

I'd also add incentives for people to take care of themselves; if they won't do it for themselves, then I'd appeal to what they really care about, and that's money. Matter of fact, why don't we change the way we do taxes? Since a relatively huge portion of our taxes goes towards health care as it is, why don't we just start taxing the fat asses who don't care about themselves anyways? Maybe we can tax by the pound, multiplied by how much you smoke, drink, or abuse drugs? Hey, its a free society, but as the Great Bumper Sticker once told me, "freedom isn't free".

Watch how fast this country gets in shape then. It'd be the fastest mass weight loss effort in human history! By the time we'd be done, we'd all look like Ah-nold, pay the bare minimum in health care, and we'd all be fabulously rich!
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Byron
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This post was excellent and gave me a reminder me as to why I respect you; you know how to make an excellent arguement, and I feel that I learn something new from each of these debates. I have a friend who'd really enjoy a good debate against you.

I will also admit that I was a little upset when I wrote my posts. It seems that you understand why I acted this way; I'll just say that I was upset about the article and needed to get that off of my chest. My stance on Public/Private Health Care remains unchanged, but if you feel that it doesn't work for America then you are probally right; after all, you've lived there your entire life. All I've ever done is make yearly trips into Washington State and one trip down to Califonia Disneyland (didn't really enjoy the city that much, though; too much smog, not enough trees, and the burgers served at the park were so huge that I could barely eat half of one before I was full).

In regaurds to your arguements about Competition that you raise in paragraph 8 of your post, I have something that is a bit interesting to tell you; I can remember an incedent a while ago where some people wanted to build a Private Clinic (or maybe Hospital...I forget) in my region. There was this huge public outcry about it, mainly because people were afraid of the creation of a two-tier system (one for those who could pay for it and another for those who couldn't) or the move to complete privatization. To this day, I'm still not sure why people were freaking out about it; in Canada, at least, some services such as Optometry and Dentistry are already privitised, so one private (Medical Center?) could hardly make a difference. I'm not sure why I mentioned that, only that I found it funny that in Canada that Health Care debate almost goes the opposite way.

So where was I...

Okay. I do tend to forget that not everyone has grown up with the same experiences in the same enviroment that I have. It should also be noted that I have almost never had to attend the hospital (except for one incident where I broke my head open) and mostly visit a small clinic near my house when I am feeling ill. Therefore, I have had little personal experience with my countries health care system and have had to rely on secondhand information about it (although I do concede that the wait times are a huge problem with our system).

...I think I may need to do some research on the subject. It'll make for an interesting Essay, at least...

(On an unrelated note, the boards have been fairly inactive lately. Where is everyone?)
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Mad Mags

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Byron,Oct 4 2010
11:34 PM
I will also admit that I was a little upset when I wrote my posts. It seems that you understand why I acted this way; I'll just say that I was upset about the article and needed to get that off of my chest.




You fell for the trap. Those pundits and "professional bloggers" make their living by getting you riled up, one way or another. Whether you agree or disagree with their words, you'll still be visiting their website, increasing traffic, and therefore making advertising space a more valuable commodity. This is why Rush Limbaugh is insanely rich; not because people completely believe in everything he says, but because enough people listen to his show to justify the huge price tag associated with advertising on such show.

It all boils down to business.

Best thing to do is read through their bullshit, research the facts yourself, and make your own opinion, sans the extraneousness emotions you're "supposed" to feel.

Quote:
 
...and the burgers served at the park were so huge that I could barely eat half of one before I was full.


'Merica.

Quote:
 
In regaurds to your arguements about Competition that you raise in paragraph 8 of your post, I have something that is a bit interesting to tell you; I can remember an incedent a while ago where some people wanted to build a Private Clinic (or maybe Hospital...I forget) in my region. There was this huge public outcry about it, mainly because people were afraid of the creation of a two-tier system (one for those who could pay for it and another for those who couldn't) or the move to complete privatization. To this day, I'm still not sure why people were freaking out about it; in Canada, at least, some services such as Optometry and Dentistry are already privitised, so one private (Medical Center?) could hardly make a difference. I'm not sure why I mentioned that, only that I found it funny that in Canada that Health Care debate almost goes the opposite way.


Just as you said, your fellow countrymen and women feared that such a precedent would potentially give way to a two-tier system; one for the common tax payer (i.e., substandard) and the other for the rich privateer that could afford to splurge on better health care. The Canadian health care system hinges on the basis that everyone, regardless of social and economic background, gets the same treatment. Whether or not that's true or not, I don't know. I'm sure there's been instances where some people have flashed some cash to waive that long waiting time.

I also know for a fact that we have people from Windsor, Ontario coming to Detroit and paying out of pocket for our health services. As expensive as it is, Detroit actually has some of the best hospitals around, and you'll see a doctor a lot faster over here rather than over there.


(They're at home, washin' their tights!! Ha ha ha ha!")[/color]
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