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Wikileaks: yay or nay?
Topic Started: Dec 6 2010, 07:54 PM (471 Views)
Gauntlet101010
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So, unless you've been living under a rock, you must have heard about what has been dubbed the 9-11 of international relations. The leaking of hundreas of thousands of cables by wikileaks.

So, where do you side? Freedom of information and a transparent government? Or did Wikileaks cross the line and endanger the US and it's allies?
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Mad Mags

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Well, since Obama reneged on one of his campaign promises of a more open and transparent government by extending the Patriot Act, I see WikiLeaks as a valid means to enforce that transparency.

I think they're offering a great service by ensuring the government fears the people, and not the other way around. I think most people forget that government is supposed to serve us, so we have a right to know what's going on. If they're doing something shady or flat out lying to us, and taking measures to cover it up, then we need something like WikiLeaks to expose the lies.

I guess it goes without saying that in my hypothetical version of Outer Heaven, I'd offer refuge and protection to Assange and WikiLeaks. Let the US govt try to explain their lies and poor leadership, instead of blaming it on the guy relying the info.

It also helps that the latest leak really made Hillary Clinton look like an even bigger bitch, if that were at all possible.

Of course, my ulterior motive is to watch the current government burn itself to the ground so the more sane and reasonable citizens can restart it anew, so this only helps things along.
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Benjamin
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Aren't those documents just telling us stuff we already know anyway?

As for Assange himself, I could care less of what happens to him or this Wikileaks debacle because it's all really just diplomatic name-calling.
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Mad Mags

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More or less. It basically gives us evidence for all of the "hunches" many people have had.

However, I'm interested in this supposed inside info on BP they claim to have, as well as their contingency plan that Assange has called "thermonuclear", referring to how much political fallout it could generate. I've LOVE to see what that is.
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Alice Vulcan
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The way I see it, anything and everything has the potential to be leaked and when it is. Unless you hire people to do some forceful silencing, that shit's out of control. Ain't no plugging something like that otherwise. If it get's out then you can be as pissed about it as you want but it's fair game. It's just a matter of if it leaks or not. You want this stuff sealed? Do a better job at it.

Basically, I just don't give a fuck.
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Gauntlet101010
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For myself ... I actually think they've been pretty irresponsible in their leaks.

Sure, some things are worth leaking out. But hundreads of thousands of documents? And some seem to just cause trouble for the US by exposing the frank views of it's ambassadors .... leaking that doesn't really help anyone and really just hinders efforts.

In spirit I could get behind wikileaks, but they seem to have overdone things in their zeal to leak out documents. Like the list of assets the US sees as invaluble. Yeah, way to paint a target sign on all of them, wikileaks. That exposes government corruption ... how? Exactly why was that leaked? Because it seems to me that it'd be a good idea to keep something like that a secret. As interesting as it might be to see what the US sees as assets it leaves them very exposed. And us too since Canada's pretty intertwined with the US.
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Well, maybe not all of it "should" have been posted, but I'm pretty sure, as Ben said, that the lion's share of what WikiLeaks has leaked has been suspected already. In many cases, this just points out the obvious.

In other cases, like the alleged slaughter of Afghan civilians by US military personnel...Yeah, I kinda want to know that. My tax dollars are paying for that, so in an indirect way, I'm funding these murders. I don't feel all that good about that. I love my guys over there, but I've got to admit that there's probably a few bad apples over there giving us all a bad name. When the govt attempts to cover it up instead of putting our own bad guys to justice, it makes me want to get everyone the hell out of there even sooner.

But when it comes to the leaking of Afghani "snitches", that is overdoing it a tad. These guys wanted to help us, and were most likely told they were doing so under secrecy. Now the Taliban has their names, so guess what happens next? Either they get killed or the US moves them in secret, probably over here.

But, this all boils down to a lack of responsibility on the US government's part. They've been using cover story after cover story to hide their numerous fuck ups, and to top it off they're apparently not even doing a good job of storing this info, since a private entity like WikiLeaks is able to get a hold of and post it for all the world to see. If the govt can't even protect its own secrets, what the hell are we trusting them for? Our government is supposed to be THE most adept at information management, and yet some of their biggest secrets end up posted on some internet site run by a guy who isn't even a US citizen? How many flavors of fucked up is that?

So maybe not all of the leaks are good, but I'm still glad there's an entity out there that won't put up with this cloak and dagger bullshit, as if it were still the Cold War. If the trade off is that some sensitive info gets put out there that really shouldn't be, then I've got to say I'd rather see everything, rather than nothing.
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Gauntlet101010
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Quote:
 
Well, maybe not all of it "should" have been posted, but I'm pretty sure, as Ben said, that the lion's share of what WikiLeaks has leaked has been suspected already. In many cases, this just points out the obvious.


Yeah, I wonder about that. There's a BIG difference between what might be obvious and what's flat-out known. That difference is important. Make no mistake.

It seems to me that the amount of mischief the lion's share of documents that's been released could cause trouble for many years to come. And ... for what? Shits and giggles? That's not good enough for me. I'm not gonna laud the guy for leaking documents that could harm the US (and the entire western world, really) just for shits and giggles.

And it shouldn't be a good enough reason for you either.

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But, this all boils down to a lack of responsibility on the US government's part.


Maybe so. I'd also lay some responsibility on the traitor, though. And the head of Wikileaks isn't without responsibility either. He's the guy hellbent on exposing as many of these documents as possible. Not just the legitimate ones that need exposoing, but also ones that are pretty harmful to the parties involved.

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So maybe not all of the leaks are good, but I'm still glad there's an entity out there that won't put up with this cloak and dagger bullshit, as if it were still the Cold War. If the trade off is that some sensitive info gets put out there that really shouldn't be, then I've got to say I'd rather see everything, rather than nothing.


Yeah, it's not as if America has any enemies anymore, right?
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Gauntlet101010,Dec 7 2010
12:44 AM
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Well, maybe not all of it "should" have been posted, but I'm pretty sure, as Ben said, that the lion's share of what WikiLeaks has leaked has been suspected already. In many cases, this just points out the obvious.


Yeah, I wonder about that. There's a BIG difference between what might be obvious and what's flat-out known. That difference is important. Make no mistake.

It seems to me that the amount of mischief the lion's share of documents that's been released could cause trouble for many years to come. And ... for what? Shits and giggles? That's not good enough for me. I'm not gonna laud the guy for leaking documents that could harm the US (and the entire western world, really) just for shits and giggles.

And it shouldn't be a good enough reason for you either.




It shouldn't...but it is. Deal with it.

We pay some very clever people a shit ton of money to keep this very thing from happening. I get a lot of humor from that. We pay even more money to the operators of the spin machines, so the damage done by this isn't going to be as severe as its being made out to be. Hell, they'll probably just go to Plan A, which is to blame Bush, and everyone will be fine with that.

Your concern is touching, but I'm sure the Chosen One and his closest buddies will be okay. The US as a country, though, is fucked in many ways as it is, so this is just a drop in the bucket in the big picture.


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But, this all boils down to a lack of responsibility on the US government's part.


Maybe so. I'd also lay some responsibility on the traitor, though. And the head of Wikileaks isn't without responsibility either. He's the guy hellbent on exposing as many of these documents as possible. Not just the legitimate ones that need exposoing, but also ones that are pretty harmful to the parties involved.


...How can he be a traitor when he was never a citizen of the US to begin with? He never swore allegiance to this country. Who's he a traitor to, then? The "international community"? Well, sign me up!

Keep in mind WikiLeaks is still withholding several tens of thousands of documents as they edit them, removing innocent parties' names. Clearly, they've learned from their previous mistakes with the Afghanistan War docs.


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So maybe not all of the leaks are good, but I'm still glad there's an entity out there that won't put up with this cloak and dagger bullshit, as if it were still the Cold War. If the trade off is that some sensitive info gets put out there that really shouldn't be, then I've got to say I'd rather see everything, rather than nothing.


Yeah, it's not as if America has any enemies anymore, right?



Really? You think this is going to affect these enemies one way or another? Think Iran or North Korea were "on the fence" on us at all? China only likes us because they've been making boatloads of cash off of us. Everyone else will be bought off through sweetheart deals and ass kissing, as always.

In a year, this will be forgotten, especially if Assange turns himself in and WikiLeaks ends up getting booted off the internet. Then we can get back to what's really important; spending money we don't have, football, and contributing nothing of value to the global economy. I think things are returning to normal.
















...They just turned back to normal. We're all good.[/color]
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Gauntlet101010
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We pay some very clever people a shit ton of money to keep this very thing from happening. I get a lot of humor from that.


Not me, man. Unlike you, I tend to think we'll see the effects of this trickle downwards in ways we don't expect.

Personally, I like things the way they are. And it's not like the damage is limited to you guys. Canada's pretty tied to the US. You guys go down, we go down too.

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How can he be a traitor when he was never a citizen of the US to begin with?


Not him, the officer who got the documents and gave it to him. I'd say he's a traitor.

We'll see how responsible they are. But I'm not too impressed witht he disclosure of American interests recently nor the opinions of delegates. It seems to me that they haven't learned too much.

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Really? You think this is going to affect these enemies one way or another?


Yes. Yes, I tend to think it will. By weakening the US in this way and exposing weaknesses it gives the US's enemies (and it's allies' enemies) greater power. It exposes people who may not have been targets before.

In a year we'll forget about this because it doesn't affect us. Much in the same way 9-11 didn't affect me directly. But I tend to doubt there'll be no consequences to any of this. Or that the consequences will be limited to government drones or soldiers whose lives, evidently, don't count for much. There'll be consequences, we just won't recognize them for what they are.

If the US government decides to assert more control over the net in the future, you'll have wikileaks to thank for it, I expect.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the US government's negotiating power being severely weakened being a good thing. I mean, obviously we won't agree on this.
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Seadragon76
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I'm getting a hell of a kick out of this. An Australian computer hacker has basically earned the scorn of the entire Western world.

Man, no one could write a script that well.

And I'm with Rich: I want to see what kind of shit WikiLeaks has on BP (and Bank of America, and so on and so on) so I can enjoy everyone else going ape shit over this.
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Benjamin
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http://www.cbc.ca/politics/story/2010/12/0...e-flanagan.html

Looks like Tom Flanagan, a University of Calgary professor (and former advisor to PM Stephen Harper) is in hot water for commenting that Julian Assange should be assassinated. Assange is calling for authorities here to charge Flanagan for incitement to murder. I say fair enough, but Assange himself should face his outstanding charges for sexual offenses in Sweden otherwise he is a hypocrite.

Plus, the CIA and several other intelligence agencies are out for his blood. If they want him dead, it's only a matter of time till one of them gets to him and makes it look like an accident. Ans as I said, I could give less of a fuck of what happens to him.
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Mad Mags

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Gauntlet101010,Dec 7 2010
08:44 AM
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We pay some very clever people a shit ton of money to keep this very thing from happening. I get a lot of humor from that.


Not me, man. Unlike you, I tend to think we'll see the effects of this trickle downwards in ways we don't expect.

Personally, I like things the way they are. And it's not like the damage is limited to you guys. Canada's pretty tied to the US. You guys go down, we go down too.


We were going down one way or another. In the bigger picture, this is still nothing compared to the growing dollar crisis. Once that starts to hit us, and it will, this WikiLeaks thing will be laughable in comparison. If you want to worry about the US dragging down Canada with it, worry about that, instead of a few documents only a select few people will actually read for themselves, let alone really care about.

Its a shame you like the way things are, because A) They're actually really fucked up just beneath the surface, and B) Things are changing regardless of this WikiLeaks thing, and in due time you'll be amazed at how fast they will.

This is Rome, baby, and we're about to burn!

I happen to love it because it makes a lot of people in politics that I hate (i.e. all of them) squirm in fear. Kyahahahaha!!!


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How can he be a traitor when he was never a citizen of the US to begin with?


Not him, the officer who got the documents and gave it to him. I'd say he's a traitor.

We'll see how responsible they are. But I'm not too impressed witht he disclosure of American interests recently nor the opinions of delegates. It seems to me that they haven't learned too much.


Didn't they get a lot of this info via hackers and other "anonymous" sources? How do you know it was a US official that has been the source?

I knew it! You ARE a digital virus, and that guy we met in TO was a stand in agent! How deep does it go?! WHERE'S HARVEY?!?!

But really, where do we get off spying on our allies? Anybody else feel that's a bit hard to defend?


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Really? You think this is going to affect these enemies one way or another?


Yes. Yes, I tend to think it will. By weakening the US in this way and exposing weaknesses it gives the US's enemies (and it's allies' enemies) greater power. It exposes people who may not have been targets before.

In a year we'll forget about this because it doesn't affect us. Much in the same way 9-11 didn't affect me directly. But I tend to doubt there'll be no consequences to any of this. Or that the consequences will be limited to government drones or soldiers whose lives, evidently, don't count for much. There'll be consequences, we just won't recognize them for what they are.

If the US government decides to assert more control over the net in the future, you'll have wikileaks to thank for it, I expect.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the US government's negotiating power being severely weakened being a good thing. I mean, obviously we won't agree on this.


Oh, I didn't say there won't be consequences. However, its not like the US diplomacy machine will remain completely static during this. You can bet that damage control is in full effect as we speak. You shouldn't underestimate how good the US govt is at schmoozing and worming out of sticky situations.

Its not like the US enjoys a sterling reputation amongst international citizenry, especially in Europe and the Mid East. And Africa. And Asia. And South America.

And if the US tries to assert more control over the internet, that assumes that the US govt is trying to take a measure of ownership of the internet. Good luck there! Good luck picking a fight with Anonymous, the digital Viet Cong. Good luck telling all of the diplomats you've been talking shit about that you blame the internet for the leak, and that we deserve to censor it. I'm sure they'll love that excuse.

They'd have better luck laying claim to Mars.

The best they could do is a Chinese-style censoring, limiting it to US citizens. Again, they'd run into hardcore opposition in both the real world and the digital one. I really think that's a fight they'd lose, so if this WikiLeaks thing helps get that future fight out of the way sooner, then that's all the better.[/color]
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Gauntlet101010
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The best they could do is a Chinese-style censoring


Yeah, that'd do it, wouldn't it? I don't think they'd be that (obviously)extreme, but I can see something like this going on. So far our culture has kept it at bay, but shit like wikileaks is probably making both our governments looking at China for answers.

You seem to think there'll be no consequences at all, or very little, or ones that are inconsequential or inevetable .... I tend to think this is kinda naive. Like I said, unlike you I want the world to stay as it is, more or less. I tend to like the US in charge over, say, China or Russia.

As for the US spying on it's allies ... smart in my book. Again, this is one of those secrets that shoulda stayed a secret. I hope Canada is keeping it's ear to the ground for Canadian interests.
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Gauntlet101010,Dec 7 2010
07:59 PM
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The best they could do is a Chinese-style censoring


Yeah, that'd do it, wouldn't it? I don't think they'd be that (obviously)extreme, but I can see something like this going on. So far our culture has kept it at bay, but shit like wikileaks is probably making both our governments looking at China for answers.

You seem to think there'll be no consequences at all, or very little, or ones that are inconsequential or inevetable .... I tend to think this is kinda naive. Like I said, unlike you I want the world to stay as it is, more or less. I tend to like the US in charge over, say, China or Russia.

As for the US spying on it's allies ... smart in my book. Again, this is one of those secrets that shoulda stayed a secret. I hope Canada is keeping it's ear to the ground for Canadian interests.

Its not about what you or I like, so much as what is actually happening, and that's a change in our way of life, culminating in a shift in global power.

You're absolutely nuts if you think I WANT China to be in charge of the world, or that I want the US to completely fail and be wiped off the face of the Earth forever. What I think is going to happen is a systematic failure of everything we've been taking for granted. During and after that is what I'm getting ready for, and I know everyone is going to fight it instead of fixing the real problems that have caused it. Its literally going to take a near or total collapse to show Western people what's really important. We're that far gone.

The silver lining there is that we can learn from all of these mistakes once everybody is aware of them, and once that happens, we can rebuild and eventually be much stronger and wiser in the future. We're just going to have to go through Hell itself before that, just as our ancestors did during the Great Depression.

What I'm saying is that compared to what's going on, any fallout from WikiLeaks is going to be inconsequential down the road. We're killing our own dollar, and once that gets beyond a certain point, that'll be the big question on the table. This WikiLeaks stuff really is just filler until then.

Believe me, I'd like nothing more than to be in the same boat as my parents were at my age, back when I could very easily secure credit to buy a house, start a business, and even have a glimmer of hope at retirement, all while living a pretty good life. I have NONE of that, none of those opportunities. There is no more cheap credit to be had, and the USD sure as hell ain't what it used to be. When my parents were married in 1980, the US was the world's largest creditor. Thirty years later, we're the world's largest debtor, and not just now, we're talking in the history of modern civilization! In just 30 friggin' years!

So really, if you think I'm going to fret over some other country's hurt feelings compared to those solid truths, then yeah...Guess I am a bit naive. None of that shit is going to matter come 2013, when 60% of our debts are due and we're still 12 trillion in the hole, though. Hell, just next year we're predicted to hit 100% debt vs GDP. That means we're going owe as much we take in as a nation, dollar for dollar. That's a near 40% jump in only 4 years. That's a pretty big deal. WikiLeaks isn't, not compared to that.

We survived the Iran-Contra Affair, the Bush presidency, the Cuban Missile Crisis, JFK getting killed, Grenada, the Vietnam War, as well as Bush declaring war without the UN's approval, and other nations hated us for it, but eventually we all moved on. WikiLeaks is far less severe than any of those. We make fun of all of those things now, as if they were a joke, just as we will WikiLeaks. We'll survive this.

Everything else? Well...

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Gauntlet101010
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Of course the world will survive wikileaks. But I'd say it has the potential to be as bad as any of those things. Like Iraq time will tell exactly how much of a difference it'll play in our lives.
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Benjamin
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Big Boss,Dec 7 2010
05:44 PM
You're absolutely nuts if you think I WANT China to be in charge of the world, or that I want the US to completely fail and be wiped off the face of the Earth forever. What I think is going to happen is a systematic failure of everything we've been taking for granted. During and after that is what I'm getting ready for, and I know everyone is going to fight it instead of fixing the real problems that have caused it. Its literally going to take a near or total collapse to show Western people what's really important. We're that far gone.

The silver lining there is that we can learn from all of these mistakes once everybody is aware of them, and once that happens, we can rebuild and eventually be much stronger and wiser in the future. We're just going to have to go through Hell itself before that, just as our ancestors did during the Great Depression.

Personally I think it's way past time that the world focuses its hate on another nation, and China is the prime candidate considering their imperialistic douchebagery in Africa right now. As you noted Rich, it took thirty years for the United States to go to shit, imagine how long it will take them to crash and burn. But that is beyond the pale right now; our culture is complacent, decadent, and there are those times when a house becomes so termite-infested, it's better to knock it down and build anew.
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Mad Mags

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20101210/sc_nm/us_nasa_computers


...And WikiLeaks is the problem?

Seems to me that security is the real problem. They're doing it to themselves.

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Gauntlet101010
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Wikileaks should know which reports are worth reporting and which aren't.

And NASA ought to learn the value of a harddrive format. Seriously, guys, it was even in the beginning of computors. I remember to sounds it used to make as it struggled to do even that simple task.
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