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Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns Part 1; Comes out September 25th on DVD/Blu-Ray
Topic Started: Sep 23 2012, 10:38 PM (354 Views)
Mad Mags

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Anybody else seriously amped for this?

Official Trailer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwTMsUbJKeY&feature=related

Awesome fight scene and dialogue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgLqBtFvAKU

That's Peter Weller (RoboCop!) voicing Batman.

This is an adaptation of the 1986 miniseries of the same name. This, along with Miller's Batman: Year One brought Batman back into proper form after years of questionable writing. These two books completely changed Batman from that point on, and would go on to influence Tim Burton's films, and have an even bigger influence on the modern Nolan Dark Knight trilogy.

Want evidence? If you've seen Dark Knight Rises, you'll no doubt recognize this scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38Th4GGesOQ

So yeah...Pretty geeked over here.
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Benjamin
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I cannot say I am, to be honest. Frank Miller is probably the reason why I have disdain for the Batman, especially after the battle against Superman in Dark Knight Returns. I pretty much dismiss it as "writer on board" because Miller always seemed to have nothing antipathy for the Man of Steel and any superpowered hero in the DCU (much like Doug Moench.)

That battle is one reason why I smirked when Hal Jordan decked him in Green Lantern: Rebirth and when Wally West essentially told Bats to piss off when he tried to intimidate him.
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Mad Mags

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I'm the opposite in that respect. To me, the more powerful the hero is, the less interesting he is, unless you take the time to tear him down properly. Supes has always been my least favorite superhero of both DC and Marvel, as no matter how hard they tried to drag him down to our level, he was always a few punches away from victory. When you have to rely on a super rare (though not that rare, apparently) element from a planet that blew up a universe away, or some absurd device to block the sun in order to even have a chance against him, it means every story in between the giant sun blocking machine or Lex Luthor gets his hands on yet another chunk of Kryptonite gimmick is going to be a struggle to keep me awake.

Superman's entire schtick revolves around him being nigh invulnerable, so he doesn't have to do too much thinking. As a result, the reader doesn't have to do much thinking- its pure fantasy. Superman is presented with a problem, so he just has to guesstimate how much punching or heat vision (OR FUCKING TIME TRAVEL) it will take to solve it. That doesn't mean that avid Superman readers all have Down's syndrome, mind you (though it might help with some of the writing DC has put out over the years). It just means that it works for a lot of people looking to get away from real life when they open a comic book.

With Bats, there was always that element of danger, since he was a regular dude in a stupid looking outfit that could get shot and killed by a regular gun. For me, the most interesting Batman stories were the ones where he's being a detective, or trying to wring information out of a hood, rather than going against Joker again. And while he does go against Joker here, Miller makes it interesting by reinventing Joker and making him legit frightening.

Dark Knight Returns managed to hit a good stride with me. The early pages paint Wayne as a tortured man forced into retirement from the only thing that he felt good at doing. For all of his money, he clearly hates his life, and is bitter and alone- pretty much how you'd imagine a guy like Bruce Wayne ending up. The book does a great job of building towards that inevitable moment of him re-donning the cowl, with him beating the ever loving shit out of criminals, all the while giving us a look into his mind, where he constantly thinks about "what a good death this would be", and how his body is falling apart, but at the same time he's obviously enjoying himself. He's doing what he was put on Earth to do. TDKR not only brought Batman back to his darker roots, but also reintroduced a sense of humanity that had been lacking in his books for a long time prior.

*SPOILERS*

My only qualm with the book is its ending. I don't have an issue with the fight with Superman being the last battle- I just wish it really was his last battle. It would have been mint if he really had died and his legacy had been passed to Robin and the Sons of the Batman, but unfortunately it left it wide open for the really awful sequel. The ending as is wouldn't have been so bad, but TDK Strikes Back really marred it for me. I actually really like the idea of Batman fighting Superman to the death, knowing he has no chance, but he does so anyways because he knows retirement is no longer an option for him.

I loved it because it was a 55 year old man that, for all of his riches, worked his ass off to get to where he was as Batman. He fought against a government sell-out Superman that days earlier had seen the epicenter of a nuclear explosion and lived to tell about it, so it sets up that Clark is still completely untouchable. He fought Clark not because he was being forced to (unlike Supes, who was ordered to by the President), but because he knew he had to. I liked that Bats managed to give Superman a black eye while having a fatal heart attack- what's a better testament to Batman's legendary will than that? I liked that Clark immediately felt remorse afterwards, because there was no real animosity between them. They just got caught up on opposite sides of an ideological battle. These were two friends, and I think Batman going out, giving Superman a black eye would have been "a good death".


*END SPOILERS*

On the contrary, the best Superman book I can think of? The one where he gets beat to death. Certainly better than that electric blue raspberry outfit he had a few years ago. But that's the problem- it took inventing a character strong enough to beat Super-fucking-man to death for me to care about it. It certainly wasn't Supes that sold that issue- it was how the supporting cast was going to react. Once they brought in all of the Superman clones, I once again went about ignoring the title and character. Then I heard about how that all resolved. Hoo boy.

I'm not the most comic-savvy guy here by a long shot, but I grew up with access to a TON of '70s, '80s, and '90s era DC and Marvel titles, thanks to a local comic book shop's bargain bin and a grandma that wanted to keep her favorite grand kid busy on the weekends. I wound up preferring the less fantastical comic book characters, such as Batman and Spider-Man (hey, compared to Superman he's not that overpowered). But, since I was still a kid I liked Wolverine as much as all of my other friends. I really hated big, cosmic, overly fantastical events like the Crisis on Infinite Earths and Secret Wars because they became so big that everything afterwards just felt small and insignificant. And now that I'm older, I dislike them even more because they're clearly a cheap ploy by writers and publishers to whip up something big when sales were stale, killing off characters that were barely relevant anyways in the process. I guess I had too much '80s comic book shit stirring around my brain when Business of War was dreamed up.

Years later, I've come to have more respect for Frank Miller's work of that era because he really did go against the grain and dared to try something different. He made an interesting character even more interesting, and he did so by returning Batman to his most basic roots in an era of extravagant, ultimately unimaginative and poorly-executed cross overs being the norm.

I'm not saying that Superman can't be an interesting character- I'm just saying that I have yet to find anybody do that without severely de-powering him (or killing him). They tried that shit with Wolverine and that was awful (so awful I stopped reading comics for years afterwards). Clark just doesn't do anything for me.
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Gauntlet101010
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There's some broad generalisations there about Superman and Batman. On one end of the spectrum there are Superman stories from the Silver Age that has him effortlessly time travel and is a super scientist on top of all that. But there are others where he's not nearly that powerful. I think one of my favorites is still Emporor Joker where the Joker gets 99.9% of Mr. Mxyzptik's power and turns the world upside down (and he was a surprise villain, you don't now it's him until near the very end) or "What ever happened to the man of tomorrow" where the Silver Age Superman gets closure. Another worthy mention is the story where he fought the Eliete, also coming to video, where he has to take on an early 2000's era era team that shows his traditional values collide with the more extreme heroes of the tale.

I think it needs to be understood that, yes there's some stories 50 years ago where Superman had only one weakness. But there's other where other super strong types can actually have an edge over him.

Conversely there are stories where Batman is all powerful and capable of beating every single JLA member just because he's Batman. Money may not be a traditional superpower, but there's a few books that portray Batman as so super smart that only his paranoia is a weakness. If you read JLA stories of the Morrison era and around that era almost every characetr is in awe of Batman and it got really old. Morrison wrote the best portrayal of the JLA ever, but Batman was just infallable by the end of it with every plan and every gizmo needed to pull said plan and all invented by himself from synthesised Red Kryptonite to machines that can ignite Matian Manhunter to turning GL blind. A good moment showing how "awsome" Batman is is in the newest 1st issue of JLA where he just plucks the ring right off Hal's finger ... just because he can and I guess the Guardians didn't think it was possible to do it. Sure, he doesn't juggle planets, but it gets pretty absurd when he's prepared for every single situation he finds himself in and has bat themed vehicles for every single terrain imaginable.

Plus, if we're going to pick on Silver Age Superman stories we can't forget the nutty sci-fi adentures of Batman where he found himself on other planets and fighting Calenderman or the Ten Eyed Man.

I used to collect both comics and I like both characetrs, but both of them have been taken too far sometimes. Superman being portrayed as too powerful and Batman being portrayed as infallable. You really can't paint either with so thick a brush. It's all up to the writer and the reader's sensibilities.

Anyhow, I'm happy to see this made. TDKR was actually one of the first Bat books I ever read. My mom got it for me right after we saw the first Batman movie and it went right over my head for many, many years. I had that old beat up copy signed by Miller too, one of the very few instances I've ever bothered with that.

Here's hoping they never make a movie of the sequel!
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Mad Mags

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Oh, there's plenty of bad Batman stories to go around. For every Long Halloween, there's YEARS worth of bland "can Batman escape Joker's FUN HOUSE OF DOOM?!" stories.

My point is that when both characters are in their most capable hands, I prefer Batman because he's the most relatable to me. I really don't like stories that are on a cosmic scale because its extremely difficult, if not impossible, to properly depict the repercussions of such a story. The worst is when you have some huge ass fight in space and the people of Earth have no clue as to what is going on. There's such a huge disconnect there it just seems pointless. And really, Superman is a cosmic kind of character. He has to be. The guy can't just stay in Metropolis fighting bank robbers and the weekly Lex Luthor doom machine. And at that point, when you take Superman to the moon and beyond, or even just saving whole continents, the character loses its appeal. That's my conundrum with Superman- keep him in Metropolis, and it gets retarded watching him fight bank robbers and Lexy's latest diabolical scheme. Take him global or to the stars and I go to sleep.

On the other hand, keeping him in his home town is exactly what you're supposed to do with Batman. I think the character is ruined when you take him out of Gotham, where he's in his element solving crimes and taking apart organized crime, and you put him in the JLA alongside all of the other super-powered people that really don't need him. I generally don't like massive team ups, and JLA is about as big as it gets. My biggest problem with JLA is that you have to up the villains abilities and capabilities to the point where on their own, the individual JLA members don't stand a chance. That's a really tall order when you have Superman, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, and everyone else on tap. To justify the JLA, the Earth has to be under a constant threat of annihilation on a scale unimaginable. Its a bit too much, especially when you're a guy like me who prefers to keep his Batmen in dark alleys punching kidnappers in the neck.

I hate "Go Go Gadget" Batman a lot, and that's the Batman you get with the JLA. The guy is intended to be extremely smart, but the levels they depict him at in order to keep him up to the other JLA members' levels is ridiculous. He's at his best when he's thinking fast and using what he has on hand, rather than pulling the Bat Shark Repellent Spray out his bottomless utility belt. Its like you said- its all about who's writing for him at the time.

Frank Miller was one of the best, and has influenced the best Batman movies ever since, so I think its really fitting that they're making it into an animated film that will no doubt continue to influence Batman media for a long time to come. That's a really good thing.
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Benjamin
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Different writers have different strengths, and Frank was always better with the gritty, hard-boiled crime fiction as evidenced by his work on Daredevil and Sin City. Hell, I have the Daredevil: The Man Without Fear mini-series he did with John Romita Jr. and I thought it was pretty good and despite my distaste for Dark Knight Returns, I give it and Year One a modicum of respect for the reasons you just mentioned. However, while I cannot say Miller lacks imagination per say I can say he lacks the proper tools to use the more fantastical and science fiction elements of the DC Universe effectively. It does not not show as much in DKR because the only DC characters featured were Supes and Green Arrow but it becomes clearer in the sequel Dark Knight Strikes Again and All-Star Batman. Both of which featured Green Lantern and Wonder Woman, and wrote them like caricatures rather than characters. His Wonder Woman was atrocious with how he portrayed her as a militant misandrist as if he never actually took the time to read a Wonder Woman comic.

There is probably more I want to say but my thoughts are not collected enough, but all I can say is that some people do not care for the fantastical and that is perfectly fine. I grew up reading my mother (yes, you heard me right) old Superman books which included Action Comics, Adventure Comics, Lois Lane, and Jimmy Olsen and while the stories were crude but many of the concepts... Jimmy Olsen turning into a giant alien, Lois Lane hooking up with alien suitors. Damn, it was almost psychedelic in its weirdness. Then there was the Legion of Super-Heroes and the scope of it inspired a sense of awe that drove me into studying myth. Batman always seemed limited to me because the earthbound nature of his "universe" whereas Supes, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Flash, and company have a larger canvas to work with.
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Gauntlet101010
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Miller didn't do a good job at all with the sequel and I guess it's fair to say that he doesn't do well with cosmic characters based on that (Superman himself really wasn't done justics in TDKR, but that is a batman story and I don't think it's meant to appeal to Superman fans). I have no idea why anyone thought that was a good idea. But I guess it was a precusor to Before Watchmen, although a tad less dirty, if you know what I mean.
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Mad Mags

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I actually think he did fine with Supes in TDKR, considering what he was trying to do. If anything, he made Superman a bit more understandable, and Miller even explained away in-universe why Superman doesn't just come to Gotham and solve everything since it was bad enough to coax Batman out of retirement.

Superman sold out to the US government in a sort of pre Marvel Civil War kind of deal, but he did so with the best intentions. He wanted to keep saving lives, and that was his only legal recourse. Since the story isn't about Superman, it works quite well and keeps Superman away from Batman until its time. I thought it was cool that Superman tries to talk Bruce down first, but obviously that fails, so against his will he has to fight his friend. Its not a bad approach to the character, but if it were a Superman-centric story there'd be problems, such as why would Superman give a shit about "legally" saving lives.

DK Strikes Back is really awful. I don't know what he was thinking, but Miller really wasn't on his game with that one. In actuality, Frank Miller hasn't done anything of note in the last decade in terms of comic books, at least books I wnat to read. He's done All Star Batman and Robin, but I didn't really get into that (probably because Strikes Back really soured me on his Batman work after that), and 300, which I didn't bother with.

But, DK Returns and Year One are undoubtedly two of the most important Batman books ever, and will continue to influence not just future Batman stories, but many other comic titles in general. These are important books to the whole comic industry.
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Superman in TDKR is entirely out of character. He works as a foil to Batman in the one story. But it doesn't really do any favors to him at all, IMHO. Superman would never sell out. Miller tries to explain this away in the sequel, but ... yeah, it's the sequel. Superman in TDKR is one of those things I have to turn a blind eye to and consiously suspend my disbelief on. It's a great book, but it's a great Batman book. You know?

I heard Batman and Robin was pretty good, but it's notorious for being unfinished. And having Batman sayign damn a lot. And for him driving through a police car (literally, right through it).
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Benjamin
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One downside to DKR is that I believe that it partly inspired the 90s Anti-Hero trope that made Rob Liefeld (in)famous though Cable from X-Force was more directly responsible. Personally, I prefer 1996's Kingdom Come where Superman and Batman were at odds over each other's methods with Superman's heavy handed approach to the metahuman problem and Batman effectively turning Gotham into a police state. Neither of them come to blows but Bats does a lot of posturing whenever they are in the same scene. One of my favorite parts is before the battle at the Gulag and Supes calls him out on his bullshit...

...but on the other hand I did appreciate how Batman infiltrated Luthor's circle and shut him down, and rode into the Gulag battle with the cavalry.

One of my problems with DKR is that it is a power fantasy at its core. Sure, Superman is physically powerful but Batman, for all intents, is an aristocrat with effectively unlimited resources to wage his own war on crime. When I think about how many other children see their own parents murdered before their eyes and were not born into privilege like Bruce Wayne, I find Batman even less relateable than Superman. Plus, the Batman I saw throughout the nineties had this air of smugness as if his own trauma made him "better" than other non-powered like Green Arrow and Black Canary (who lost her sonic scream at the time.)

Hell, Superman was once forced into a moral quandary where he was forced to execute three Kryptonian criminals after they threatened to destroy Earth. (A more simplified version of the story but G should know what I am talking about.) His decision had actually had consequences where Supes nearly had a complete mental breakdown from the trauma. That is not even going into what happened to other characters like Hal Jordan after Reign of the Supermen and Emerald Twilght. It is not like the other DC heroes did not pay a heavy personal price.
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Mad Mags

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I would think '80s Punisher and Wolverine was what really brought on the anti-hero movement, which was further carried by Cable and Spawn. TDKR has an anti-hero feel to it, but I think Punisher's overall success and popularity of the time is what inspired the many imitations over the next few years.

TDKR being a power fantasy? Isn't that exactly what Superman has always represented? He and all of the other superheroes were always about pure escapism. So is Batman, but there's always been just a little bit of realism thrown in there to keep it grounded, and therefore an alternative to the people like me who just don't care about how many times Superman can push the moon away to change the tides.

I think I'd be really smug if I found myself to be the only normal hero invited into a clique of super-powered douches based entirely on undeniable merits as an effective crime fighter. Its not like they invited him on to the JLA because they liked his costume and toys.

Yeah, Bruce Wayne is rich. Your point? My point is that he worked his ass off for over ten years before becoming Batman, and kept up that hard work during his career. He had to earn his skills and knowledge, his physical prowess...and no amount of money will buy that. Its not like simply having money makes him capable of Batman. Supes, on the other hand, was born into it and never has to worry about maintaining his body. Who's the privileged child now? Batman is rich monetarily but that's nothing more than a tool in his arsenal to him, and as TDKR clearly depicts early on it doesn't soothe his pain at all, whereas Superman is rich in inherent strength and power- the whole "rich boy" complaint is pretty moot in this regard, as both are rich in their own ways.

Bruce could have just continued his father's philanthropy instead of choosing the direct approach, but he wanted direct influence on the streets. Its very clear what his motivations are- he doesn't want what happened to him to happen to anybody else. Money helps, but it by no means defines him.
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Gauntlet101010
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Let's not turn this into a hardcore argument. Everyone has a hero that appeals to them and those that don't. There's no need to argue about it too intensely.

My main point of contention was basing Superman over stories written 50 years ago. But it's perfectly valid to like or dislike a hero. They all speak to us for various reasons, it's a good idea not to get too polarized about it.
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Benjamin
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Well, my intent was not to deny the fact that Superman and the powered DC heroes are power fantasies. Escapism is an element of fiction regardless of genre. As for the Justice League being a bunch superpowered douches... well, a good many of them were middle class folk with an altruistic streak such as Hal Jordan who was an Air Force pilot (later test pilot) and Barry Allen was a forensic scientist before that bolt of lightning struck a nearly cabinet full of chemicals. Hell, Hal watched his father get blown to pieces in a plane crash when he was ten and DC recently retconned Barry Allen's history so that his own mother was brutally murdered, which drove him to become a forensic scientist to prove his father's innocence. Hell, Oliver Queen was stranded on a deserted island and had to learn how to use a bow to survive and Ted Kord was an inventive genius who created his own weapons to fight crime. Yet Batman usually treated the latter two like garbage despite the fact Queen and Kord earned their skill sets as much as they did.

I could even argue that Superman is more grounded than Batman because of his Kansas upbringing. Clark believed that he was actually human until he learned of his Kryptonian heritage as a teenager, to say nothing about how John and Martha Kent instilled their mid-western values in him. I would even say that Superman is more "human" because he has empathy for the human race. One of my favorite scenes from All-Star Superman is when Supes talked a girl out of committing suicide. While Batman may have empathy to a certain extent, I do not have much reason to believe that he is emotionally equipped to deal with people who are in despair. Not after the way various writers portrayed him in the past few decades.

EDIT: Yeah, after this I think we all should agree to disagree here. I have had this argument countless times on other forums and nothing conclusive has ever come out of it.
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Gauntlet101010
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Everyone has heroes who speak to them for various reasons. Personally my favorite is Green Lantern. I like the universe of GL, the mythology, a lot. And I like their new take on using emotions as the power source. The mega crossovers of the late 90s burnt me out at Batman and constant reboots burnt me out on Superman.
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Mad Mags

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Back on topic, then.

I just finished watching it, and long story short I'm pretty pleased with it. There's a few minor alterations here and there, such as the political commentary being cut down a bit. The order of events is tweaked in such a way that certain scenes happen for different reasons.

Case in point, Joker doesn't come out of his coma until the very end of Part 1, whereas in the comic it occurs the very first time he hears that Batman has returned. Therefore, he isn't involved with Two-Face's bombs, so its re-written that Two-Face wants to die, rather than being ignorant of his bombs being sabotaged.

The only element from the book that's missing here is the absence of Bruce's inner monologue. That was always my most favorite part of the book, which gave us insight into Batman's mind as he fought against his age, which also gave us some of the book's best dialogue. Some of that inner monologue was re-used as spoken dialogue, but it sadly leaves out a good chunk of it.

Another crucial element thus far missing? Superman. There's been no hint that he'll be a part of this story, whereas in the first half of the book it was already building towards a confrontation between the two. To be honest, if Part 2 focuses entirely on Batman vs Joker and changes the ending to completely leave out Superman, I'll be interested, but maybe a little let down. It'd be like tearing out your least favorite passages of the Bible to suit your needs.

Of course, they could just be saving Superman for Part 2, but that's gonna be hectic. Part 1 was pretty busy as it is even with things streamlined for time. Suddenly building up a confrontation with Superman while at the same time making up for lost time in the comic with Joker's bomb plot promises to be a very busy spectacle.

Overall, it does a great job of putting a classic onto the little screen. If you can deal with the tweaks and changes they did, it is a really good realization of one of my favorite comic mini-series of all time.

Now, to watch Year One, which has thus far eluded me until tonight...
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Gauntlet101010
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I think they have to put Superman in there. Like it or not, that fight was pretty iconic. I'll be disappointed if they alter that.

Sad to hear the monologue is gone. For some movies it works.
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Mad Mags

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Aaaaand just finished Year One.

Wow, HUGE difference in approach between Year One and TDKR. While TDKR took a few liberties with its material, Year One was slavishly devoted to bringing every single facet of its comic counterpart onto the screen, right down to art style. They even included the internal monologues of Wayne and Gordon, which worked really well here.

Only problem? Its so close to its source material that it seems a little pointless. Its a lot like the Psycho remake with Vince Vaughn from a few years back. Its literally the exact same thing as its predecessor, line for line, shot for shot.

Year One has excellent voice acting, though, and that made sitting through it rewarding.

Very interesting how different these two animations came out. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, but I'd recommend both of them to anyone who enjoys good Batman stories.
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Gauntlet101010
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You know, I've never read Year 1. I have Year 2, but not year 1. I was pretty young at the time, so it was a little too much for me. I ought to pick it up.

One good thing about slavish recreation is reaching fans who wouldn't give the original a chance because of age or medium. I find it an excellent way to show the uninitiated.
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