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How Many Years Did Nikki Serve, Total?; ekny [Feb 13, 2006]
Topic Started: Jun 1 2006, 05:39 PM (2,441 Views)
ekny
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In love with a prisoner
ekny PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:54 pm

How many years did Nikki serve, total?
It's a kind of dull factual question, sorry, but I always mentally stumble over it so am hoping someone can clarify where my thinking's going wrong.

When we start off Nikki's served two years--correct? (Scene with Trish.) Her BG story ran for 3 series (seasons as we say in the US), each of which, in real time, plays during a different calendar year: duh. Therefore... it seems clear the answer should be: 5 years--perhaps even more, given that BG "time" is so vague.

So why do I always think the answer is four? Maybe it's my brain adjusting backwards, down from her sentencing, i.e. time-already served is over 3 years so she's released. I don't know--but I get confused every time I think about it.

Minor note on story parallels betw H&N: at the start of BG, Helen's also served 2 years.

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abzug PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:07 pm

Edited on April 17, 2006 to add: Nikki served 3 1/2 years at Larkhall (May '97 - Nov '00), and possibly 4 years total (sentenced in Nov '96). See page 8 for details.

I've always felt that Nikki served less than five years, because its pretty clear that season 1 represents 6 months of time (at most), and that season 2 follows directly on from season 1. (Zandra's pregnancy is our only guide here.) Plus, its doubly confusing when Helen says that Nikki will be serving ten years before she's eligible for parole, and then adds "that's nine more years"--huh? By this point we would probably assume Nikki had served three years (her two before the show starts, plus one more to get to mid season 2), which would mean she's got seven more before she can be considered for parole.

Its very ambiguous and confusing, that's for sure....

Last edited by abzug on Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:18 am; edited 1 time in total

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ekny PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:19 pm

abzug wrote:
I've always felt that Nikki served less than five years, because its pretty clear that season 1 represents 6 months of time (at most), and that season 2 follows directly on from season 1. (Zandra's pregnancy is our only guide here.) [...]

Its very ambiguous and confusing, that's for sure....


No sh*t. It looks like the same thing happened to you as you started to reply as to me. It seems clear enough at first & then you step off the path into the quicksand of Larkhall Time and start hearing ominous rustling noises in the forest.

I'm sort of surprised no one's ever tried to do a Timeline, come to think of it.

Of course... they might well have tried & simply wound up heavily medicated. This might explain some things.

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elidakristina PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:43 pm

I've always thought Nikki only served one year before Helen arrived - and then 2 more with her in the picture - 3 altogether. And now I'm as confused as all of you. But coming to think of it even more, I've always tried to get her time together, without managing.

I think they messed it up. They probably never thought a group of nutters would sit down years after Nikki left the show and try to make sense of it. Laughing

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COOLUK1 PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:52 pm

My guesstimates are
Nikki would have been on remand for about a year before her trial. She wouldn't have got bail as she killed a police officer.... that's about how long things take here.

I guess she would have still been in Larkhall while on remand though, maybe not on G wing. So maybe she'd been inside about 18 months before Helen arrived ??...then 18-24 months with Helen...??
I think Larkhall does slip into it's own time zone somethimes ...lol

Last edited by COOLUK1 on Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

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ekny PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:52 pm

elidakristina wrote:
now I'm as confused as all of you. But coming to think of it even more, I've always tried to get her time together, without managing.

I think they messed it up. They probably never thought a group of nutters would sit down years after Nikki left the show and try to make sense of it. :lol:


Hi ek!

No doubt they didn't anticipate... *us*. Still, they must've had some timeline in mind. I keep hoping someone will log in & lay it out for us, plain as day.

--the other ek.

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abzug PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:36 am

OK, here's some more very concrete timeline information. Crystal was sentenced to a year for shoplifting. She got an extra month for the Zandra-marajuana stunt.

Crystal's 1st Ep: S1E3
Crystal's Initial Release Date: S2E8

Time from S1E3 to S2E8 = 12 months

Crystal's Actual Release Date: S2E13

Time from S2E8 to S2E13 = 1 month

Combine this info with the Zandra pregnancy clues:
Zandra's 1st Ep: S1E2
Zandra's Non-Abortion: S1E4
Zandra's Baby's Birth: S2E1

Time from S1E2 to S1E4: Around 2 months (assuming she's having a first trimester abortion)

Time from S1E2 to S2E1: Around 8 months

One other tidbit that occurred to me: When Shell sees Nikki is moving to enhanced, she says "She tried to kill me two months ago". So that means:
Nikki's Attack on Shell: S1E5
Nikki's Move to G3: S1E7

Time from S1E5 to S1E7 = 2 months

So here's the summary of the above, pretending that S1E2 takes place in January 1999 (just to pick a start date):
Jan '99: S1E2
Feb-Mar '99: S1E3, S1E4
Apr, May or Jun '99: S1E5
Jun, Jul or Aug '99: S1E7
Sep '99: S2E1
Oct '99: ???
Nov '99:???
Dec '99: ???
Jan '00: ???
Feb '00: S2E8
Mar '00: S2E13

So if Nikki has spent two years in Larkhall before the show begins, by the time of her escape she's spent a little over 3 years. That means we just need to figure out how long a period S3 covers. Any ideas?

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ekny PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 4:43 am

timeline
abzug wrote:
OK, here's some more very concrete timeline information.


I am *so* glad you decided to give this a go! Of course now I'll just have to start rewatching the whole thing again w/notepaper for all available clews. Damn. Might take me awhile to respond w/anything helpful but by then I've no doubt others will have jumped in. This is very cool.

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NZ Bad Girl PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 4:47 am

Remember, when a character says something like "2 years" they could mean anything between 1.5 years and 2.5 years if they are just rounding to the nearest year.

Oh, and the date that Nikki was processed as she arrived at Larkhall:

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n&haddict PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 6:56 am

Thanks for the picture NZ Bad Girl. I had checked out the tread earlier today and remembered there was a date on the picture of Nikki's file. I went to check it out to get the date and came back to post and here you not only have the date but a picture of it. Very Happy

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NZ Bad Girl PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 7:02 am

Are your fingers just not fast enough? Wink

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n&haddict PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 7:11 am

NZ Bad Girl wrote:
Are your fingers just not fast enough? Wink


I guess I'm just slowing down as I get older. Laughing

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suzie PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:06 am

on't forget there will be time spent on remand as well..........

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COOLUK1 PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:08 am

As I said ..maybe a year on remand prior to sentencing. 6 monthsish .. maybe a year as a convicted criminal before Helen arrives. Then 18 to 24 months after Helen arrives.

In total about 3.5 years??

I have heard mention [maybe just in fanfic...lol] of a total of 5 years for Nikki. I don't feel it was this long.

Thinking of Trisha and Nikki's relationship. How long were they seperated before Trisha dumps Nikki?
A year on remand, and 6 months to a year after conviction
..so maybe getting on for two years..by which time Helen was on the scene.

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abzug PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 12:49 pm

Quote:
Time from S2E8 to S2E13 = 1 month

Here's the problem with this entire attempt, though. How the heck could there be only a month between S2E8 and S2E13? In this time, Helen has time to start a lifer's unit, Nikki gets a lawyer, the lawyer submits her case for appeal, and the appeal gets turned down. All in a month?

Is it possible I am remembering wrong and Crystal got more than 30 extra days for the marajuana?
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ekny
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ekny PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:42 pm

abzug wrote:
Quote:
Time from S2E8 to S2E13 = 1 month

Here's the problem with this entire attempt, though. How the heck could there be only a month between S2E8 and S2E13? In this time, Helen has time to start a lifer's unit, Nikki gets a lawyer, the lawyer submits her case for appeal, and the appeal gets turned down. All in a month?

Is it possible I am remembering wrong and Crystal got more than 30 extra days for the marajuana?


I'd suggest during data-collecting phase--to borrow a page from your book--we should maybe *not* exclude anything until much further down the line, even if some 'facts' conflict w/others. (Deleted scenes excepted if y don't mind: that would be really crazy-making!)

There are so many good threads going right now, I wish more people would post abt your Why So Profound question, etc. So in order not to confuse matters & introduce yet-another-thread, I thought if you don't mind I'm gonna make a little Theoretical Sticky note here:

insert Pathetic Fallacy thread (optional)

To use a deliberately obvious example:
a couple argues / thunder rattles ominously in background &/or clouds darken.

"The pathetic fallacy is a term from literary criticism used to denote the description of inanimate natural objects in a manner that endows them with human emotions, thoughts, sensations and feelings." (Wikipedia)


Despite its name, this isn't to say the idea of the pathetic fallacy in storytelling is 'wrong', not useful, or even inaccurate. It's commonly viewed as a pretty valid way to present emotions, esp artistically. The trick is to not make it Blindingly Obvious (imo).


I was thinking about this today because it's so nice out. It's 53º, which in central NY in February is practically a religious experience.
So naturally my mood was crap.
Of course this led me directly to Bad Girls because I am not well.

I am moodily thinking of Helen in her office with the rain pattering down quietly in the background.

Then I'm thinking of Zandra weeping at the end of S1ep3, the first instance rain's been clearly & deliberately used to punctuate a scene, I think. You could make a case for the producers being pretty sparing with the whole rain-thing, given that it *is* England. Point is, I don't want this to be a trivia question: I want to

a) discuss other instances of PF used in BG, see where that goes; and
B) see if this can't also perhaps be tied into the Timeline, i.e. if it's clearly spring, is this consistant w/other events in that episode. Might be too retentive but surely someone out there's as unwell as I.

Ahem. Well... mebbe not. --e

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Canadabadgirl PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:37 am

I don't think that you can count the time BG was on TV as "real time", so it shouldn't be taken to heart in calculating Nikki's time in prison. E.g. the night of Bodybag's party took several months to happen...

A.

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mandanamad PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:54 pm

5 i think
if i remeber rightly trish came 2 see nikki the 1st time in "the victim" and she say "but its bin 2 years nikki" and then mandana played nikki 4 3 series in wich each series she was in represents a year so in total nikki served 5 years.

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COOLUK1 PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting myself from the previous page ...
Thinking of Trisha and Nikki's relationship. How long were they seperated before Trisha dumps Nikki?
A year on remand, and 6 months to a year after conviction
..so maybe getting on for two years..by which time Helen was on the scene.

As you rightly say ..Trish does state how long they've been apart a few episodes into S1.

A series doesn't have to represent 1 year though does it?

It could be 6 months 8, 10 whatever. I would imagine that writers shrink and stretch time within their plots to suit the storyline~within reason

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ekny PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:21 am

Re: Quoting myself from the previous page ...
COOLUK1 wrote:
A series doesn't have to represent 1 year though does it?

It could be 6 months 8, 10 whatever. I would imagine that writers shrink and stretch time within their plots to suit the storyline~within reason


V good point, yes... I'm beginning to think it's somewhere over 3 1/2 years & less than 4 1/2. --e

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notsuchabadgirl PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:44 am

in the last episode when the news report is shown the newsreader says"Miss Wade having already served a 3 year sentence has left the court a free woman"

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COOLUK1 PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:31 am

Does that include time spent on remand I wonder..I think time imprisoned prior to conviction does count towards your total sentence...???

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notsuchabadgirl PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:21 am

never actually spent any time in prison! so i cant be sure, but yes i think remand time does count. im thinking about charlie atkins when the judge sentences him to 9 months his defence team say that he has already served 6 on remand , and the judge says he is free to go

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abzug PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:20 pm

notsuchabadgirl wrote:
in the last episode when the news report is shown the newsreader says"Miss Wade having already served a 3 year sentence has left the court a free woman"

I think this statement suggests that she has served at least three years, not that she has served exactly three years. Three years being the usual sentence for manslaughter (its what Babs got for her manslaughter conviction, as we know), which is why its mentioned at the conclusion of the trial.

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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:30 pm

How many years did Nikki serve - total?
I think one thing that we have to accept is that in Series 1-3 the timeline is all over the place! I've tried to work it out before myself and given up. Let's just say it's fluctuating time! One episode or one series doesn't represent a fixed passage of time. Sometimes time has passed between episodes and sometimes it just carries on where it left off. The only things we know for certain are the date on Nikki's mugshot on her folder - 6 May 1997 and that surely would have been put on there when she first came in on remand. (Old Bodybag is always in reception taking photos of the new arrivals and "peering up their smelly bottoms"!) The other thing is that Nikki is released from prison at some time of the year which requires the wearing of jackets - which admittedly in England could be about 350 days! But they are not bundled up in very warm coats and the weather looks quite mild, there are reflections in the windows, so there must be some sun about. So is it perhaps any time through from May to September? Possibly it is May, because the imagery of her being released in Spring would be good - the whole "new life " thing. Back at the prison though there are some flowers in the garden but not a lot. I am of the opinion though that it was close to 4 years that she served. The fact that they chose 1997 for year she entered prison and that in 1999 when it began she had been there 2 years suggests that were running it as though it was real time. Therefore if Series 3 ended in 2001, it would have been 4 years or so. Only my opinion though!

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abzug PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:50 pm

Well, if we wanted to keep things really simple, when was the last episode of season 3 broadcast in the UK? We could assume that's Nikki's release date, and her first day in prison was May 1997....

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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:14 pm

How many years did Nikki serve - total?
Re: Pathetic Fallacy

I wanted to address ekny's "Pathetic Fallacy" point, but thought that my last post was already a bit long-winded! Now I haven't had time to go back to source and re-examine Series 1-3 to find examples, but off the top of my head one other "rain" occasion did occur to me. When Helen is driving Nikki back to prison, it is not raining initially, but once Nikki finds out that Helen is taking her back to Larkhall, we see rain start to appear on the windscreen of the car.(This of course also makes Nikki's attempt to grab the steering wheel even more reckless.) When the police officer stops them, the car is very wet and the rain is running down the windows, very much like tears. ( Incidentally, in a bit of a continuity blooper the car appears moments later driving into the Larkhall carpark as dry as a bone! Now no car in Blighty dries off that quickly, especially not at night!)

Now this doesn't fall into the "Pathetic Fallacy" category, but on watching the very first episode again the other day, I was once more struck by how well crafted the first 3 series were. I was particularly struck by the image of Carol miscarrying in her cell - we see the blood on her clothing and on her legs and then the screen takes on a red hue as it fades into the red traffic light. There is the red sign with the "Wait Here While The Light Is Showing", the red edged "Traffic Signals" triangle, the red and white striped barrier across the road, the red and white striped construction workers' tent on the other side of the road and then Helen pulls up at the stop in her red car, wearing a red shirt! They are really very clever!

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sackville PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:38 pm

time
Yeah... it's hard to follow the timeline. The file photo imples that is her inmate admission photo from mid-1997 and in mid-season 2 they are talking about how she has 9 years left before she can be considered for parole (and the file said she would have to serve a minimum of 10 years before parole would be considered)... so that would mean in mid-series 2 she had only served 1 year. At first I thought maybe the photo was from when she was arrested, but considering the parole/judges decision summary sheet in the file has a late 1996 date...

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abzug PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:27 pm

JAMBF, great observations on the rain and the red blood/red lights. Man, I really have to pay more attention when I watch these episodes!

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ekny PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:59 pm

Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
Re: Pathetic Fallacy

When Helen is driving Nikki back to prison, it is not raining initially, but once Nikki finds out that Helen is taking her back to Larkhall, we see rain start to appear on the windscreen of the car.


Ooh, sweet. That's a sure one, thanks very much! Isn't it gratifying when you *know* you've got something because it just clicks & you can point to it right there on the screen? Definitely has its puzzle-like aspects. --e
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jillpotts PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:38 pm

As if I needed another reason to re-watch...now I can pretend I'm looking for PF's!!

Very impressive ekny & JAMBF for bringing this to our attention... and commenting about the rain/tears & red imagery. Bet there are a ton more. Maybe another reason the show has such pull? Just thinking that these things would have remained subliminal to me if you hadn't pointed them out.

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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:00 pm

How many years did Nikki serve - total?
Re: Pathetic Fallacy

There is another rain one ekny, in episode 2 of Series 1, when Monica and Zandra arrive in the "cattle-truck", it is pouring down and they look like drowned rats.

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badkir PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:28 pm

She served 6 years...

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ekny PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:54 pm

PF
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
There is another rain one ekny, in episode 2 of Series 1, when Monica and Zandra arrive in the "cattle-truck", it is pouring down and they look like drowned rats.


Excellent! We're assembling a list. Yeah, I've started with rain ones too, they're a little easier to tag. (And it's not like snow is plentiful.) Have been looking for 2 scenes in Helen's office with rain very quietly pattering down in background. Think 1 was w/Z, not sure abt the other. Definitely recall the rain as a mood accent, but can't know for sure til I find em again.

Darn, darn. I'll just have to... review more episodes. Oh woe.

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COOLUK1 PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:36 pm

badkir...why did you hit on 6 years ??

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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:40 pm

How many years did Nikki serve - total?
Re: "Pathetic Fallacy"

I don't know if this qualifies as one ekny. After Rachel has hanged herself in her cell, we see Helen driving to work (to the soundtrack of "Standing With My Back Against The Wall"), her car is dodging in and out of the traffic as she weaves her way through the streets; shortly after this she is having to do some dodging and weaving of her own, as she tries to wriggle her way out of Simon's insinuations that somehow, she is to blame for Rachel's suicide. Another one I am not sure of is when Crystal sings "Amazing Grace" out of the window after Rachel's death, the light from the window is shining on her, it almost creates a halo around her, in contrast to Denny & Zandra who are both in shadow and darkness.

By the way, I think maybe you should have just started another thread for this, as it is now seriously off-topic and doesn't relate to how long Nikki served at all!

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ekny PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:03 pm

Re: How many years did Nikki serve - total?
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
Re: "Pathetic Fallacy"
By the way, I think maybe you should have just started another thread for this, as it is now seriously off-topic and doesn't relate to how long Nikki served at all!


Hi, I think the examples you bring up are the kinds that can go either way; iow, interpretive, but I don't see any reason to 'disqualify' them for that reason. Rather, if you were like, writing an essay on whatever, traffic metaphors in BG, maybe you could use the first one; that kind of thing. The point to me is to gather & share data & ideas & then see what comes of it.

As for starting another thread, I did a bunch initially but many didn't really pan out at first (though some keep springing to life when I least expect it, it's really unpredictable that way). Maybe I was still getting the feel of the place, but... didn't want to be the only person starting a new thread every couple days so bagged it after awhile. As I didn't know if anyone would be especially interested in the comments on PF, just piggybacked them onto the reply to Bella's post; at the time the association made sense to me. I'm really glad people *are* responding, that's always exciting, but am not an administrator & can't relocate threads. In this case, it doesn't seem that critical to me--the two can still kinda intertwine anyway, right? I mean... that's what threads do.

Far as I can tell there's no way to predict what direction a thread will take. It's a group thing. The only time I moved one myself was right at the start of a conversation abt Series 3 that was *clearly* going to veer way off from the one where it had originated. Then I was very careful to cut & paste & announce what I was doing so people could follow &/or participate if they wanted. It felt like the right thing to do at the time but is not something I'd just take the liberty of doing regularly.

Really, it's a good thing I'm *not* an admin, I'd get all Fretful & Nail-Bitey and go into Hyper-retento-mode about making sure every last thread was in its Rightful place & would probably get shitcanned after 2 minutes for being a thread nazi. Now i'm aiming for groovy so-cal zen mode that says, dude, threads are like, organic n shit, we should like, whoa, let them Evolve.

--yrs on a morose monday, e.

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badkir PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:52 pm

COOLUK1 wrote:
badkir...why did you hit on 6 years ??


Hiya, because you know that scene/ep when Trish says to Nikki "it's been 2 years" Well it wasn't even near the end of bad girls was it, the first series, so I would have thought at the end of series 1 it was 3 years up to that point and then seires 2 and 3 made up 6. I could be wrong but it's good to speculate. Smile

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GeauxGurl PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:00 pm

Don't know if this helps, but when Helen goes to visit Nikki, she reminds Helen that she has 9 years left. That's when Helen brings up the appeal ~ that's in S.2 ep.6.

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abzug PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:10 pm

GeauxGurl wrote:
Don't know if this helps, but when Helen goes to visit Nikki, she reminds Helen that she has 9 years left. That's when Helen brings up the appeal ~ that's in S.2 ep.6.

To me, that's one of the most unreliable pieces of information, because we know Nikki was in jail for two years before Trish dumped her, and potentially another 6 months to a year by the time this conversation occurs. So, 10 years before parole is considered, minus 2 1/2 years equals 7 1/2 years, not nine. Where the f&*k did nine years come from? I have no idea, but since it makes no sense, I've always just pretended this line didn't happen, and that Helen really said seven more years....

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COOLUK1 PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:42 pm

Nikki would have been in prison on remand for about 1 to 1.5 years before her case went to trial, then she'd been on G wing for say 6 months to 1 year when Trish pleads that 'it's been 2 years Nik'

She tells Helen in the middle of S2 that she has nine years left ie 10 years, less 1 year served since her conviction..but she'd actually been locked up for at least 2 years by that time. This is assuming that say 6 months has passed between Trish's declaration in S1 E? and what she says to Helen in S2Ep6? Can't remember how this fits in with Zandra's pregancy.

I reckon that after Helens arrival, 18 to 24 months elapsed before Nikki's release..therefore she was locked up for a total of 3.5 to 4 years including time spent on remand....?

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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:09 am

How many years did Nikki serve - total?
Another problematic date is the one which Sackville mentioned - that of the Judge's recommendations regarding how long Nikki should serve before being considered for parole. That is dated 11/7/96, whether that is the 11th of July or the 7th of November, it is still a long time before the "mugshot" picture on her file, which is 6/5/97 (again 6 May or 5 June?). Surely the judge would have written those recommendations at the time of her sentencing and she would have gone straight on to Larkhall from there, to begin her sentence proper, even if she had been on remand somewhere else? Or did she serve a few months of her sentence somewhere else before being transferred to Larkhall?! Confused No, I just reckon the time line is wonky and those Shed writers didn't reckon on obsessive fans pulling it apart and analysing it for years to come! Laughing

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GeauxGurl PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:19 am

Re: How many years did Nikki serve - total?
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
No, I just reckon the time line is wonky and those Shed writers didn't reckon on obsessive fans pulling it apart and analysing it for years to come! Laughing


Laughing Gawd, I've gotta get a life ~ other than this message board. Laughing

I am feeling quite obsessive at this point, but gee I would sure miss you girls!!! Wink

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n&haddict PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:22 am

Re: How many years did Nikki serve - total?
GeauxGurl wrote:
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
No, I just reckon the time line is wonky and those Shed writers didn't reckon on obsessive fans pulling it apart and analysing it for years to come! Laughing


Laughing Gawd, I've gotta get a life ~ other than this message board. Laughing

I am feeling quite obsessive at this point, but gee I would sure miss you girls!!! Wink


You're only now admitting this. Shocked Shocked The first step in dealing with your obsession is accepting and embracing it wholeheartedly! Wink Very Happy
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GeauxGurl PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:41 am

I have accepted ~ and embraced ~ I now need the 12 step program!!! This obsession has become a problem ~~ Shocked

help me ~~~
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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:01 am

How many years did Nikki serve - total?
Right! Step 1: Repeat after me - "Hi, I'm Geaux Girl and I'm a Badgirlsaholic!" Laughing
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abzug PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 3:39 am

abzug wrote:
OK, here's some more very concrete timeline information. Crystal was sentenced to a year for shoplifting. She got an extra month for the Zandra-marajuana stunt.

Crystal's 1st Ep: S1E3
Crystal's Initial Release Date: S2E8

Time from S1E3 to S2E8 = 12 months

Crystal's Actual Release Date: S2E13

Time from S2E8 to S2E13 = 1 month

Combine this info with the Zandra pregnancy clues:
Zandra's 1st Ep: S1E2
Zandra's Non-Abortion: S1E4
Zandra's Baby's Birth: S2E1

Time from S1E2 to S1E4: Around 2 months (assuming she's having a first trimester abortion)

Time from S1E2 to S2E1: Around 8 months

One other tidbit that occurred to me: When Shell sees Nikki is moving to enhanced, she says "She tried to kill me two months ago". So that means:
Nikki's Attack on Shell: S1E5
Nikki's Move to G3: S1E7

Time from S1E5 to S1E7 = 2 months

So here's the summary of the above, pretending that S1E2 takes place in January 1999 (just to pick a start date):
Jan '99: S1E2
Feb-Mar '99: S1E3, S1E4
Apr, May or Jun '99: S1E5
Jun, Jul or Aug '99: S1E7
Sep '99: S2E1
Oct '99: ???
Nov '99:???
Dec '99: ???
Jan '00: ???
Feb '00: S2E8
Mar '00: S2E13

So if Nikki has spent two years in Larkhall before the show begins, by the time of her escape she's spent a little over 3 years. That means we just need to figure out how long a period S3 covers. Any ideas?

One other piece of info here: in S2E6, Crystal mentions getting out "next month" which means there is only a month between S2E6 and S2E8.

Quote:
The only things we know for certain are the date on Nikki's mugshot on her folder - 6 May 1997 and that surely would have been put on there when she first came in on remand.

Which would mean that two years later when Trish comes to visit in S1E2 would be May '99.

So, to update the calendar with these two new pieces of info:
May '99: S1E2
Jun-Jul '99: S1E3, S1E4
Aug, Sep or Oct '99: S1E5
Oct, Nov or Dec '99: S1E7
Jan '00: S2E1
Feb '00: ???
Mar '00:???
Apr '00: ???
Jun '00: S2E6
Jul '00: S2E8
Aug '00: S2E13

Sadly just realized that the above means that Helen and Nikki were only "together" for a month or two before everything imploded. That makes me sad.

Last edited by abzug on Wed Mar 01, 2006 1:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

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GeauxGurl PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:28 am

Good gawd, it's Mardi Gras ~~ I can't even read what you just said!!! LOL
too, much time line for me at the moment ~~~ Wink

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ekny PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:11 pm

GeauxGurl wrote:
Good gawd, it's Mardi Gras ~~ I can't even read what you just said!!!


She's right you know, I almost have to agree & I started this bloody thing. At least I think I did. Must go check meds.


I'm quite sure when I sit down to piece together all the--well, pieces--that I'm going to instantly revert to: Jane is going up the Electric Brae at 37kph and Quixote is rounding the corner at a tangent to Jane of X. If X = X' and Quixote leaves her husband for Jane, how many parallelograms can J draw on Q's back with her tongue before Linda forgives her?

The answer of course is: Linda's ex Queenie in the kitchen with a candlestick holder at 42º arctangent but who's counting--but YOU don't know that cause you're still trying to resharpen your pencil before the bell rings cause you still think if you could just figure out what kind of gasohol Q uses & what her mileage is, maybe that'll help you with deducing what the angle Jane's going uphill at is.

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abzug PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:23 pm

So I guess this means I am the only one still playing this game? That's ok, I don't mind being alone--I've got the voices in my head to keep me company.

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ekny PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:52 pm

abzug wrote:
So I guess this means I am the only one still playing this game? That's ok, I don't mind being alone--I've got the voices in my head to keep me company.


Aw, that wasn't the point at all! No I'm playing but I got 17 things on my plate. Or maybe that's 17.8 cosecants on my trapezoid.

oi, yer not the only one wif voices eh.

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COOLUK1 PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:13 pm

I think Shed wrote in all these anomolies just to give the fans somethng to occupy their time ...lol

Within the space of 2 or 3 episodes in S1 Nikki gets younger..

She says to Monica I think after Trish dumps her, that in ten years she'll be 44.

An episode or two later she tells Helen that in 10 year she'll be 43...

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abzug PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:35 pm

COOLUK1 wrote:
An episode or two later she tells Helen that in 10 year she'll be 43...

Its just like a girl to lie about her age when she's trying to get into someone's pants!

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COOLUK1 PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:16 pm

lmso Laughing

Has Helen's age been discussed on here yet? Perhaps this is not the right thread to bring it up on but...

..according to the early bumph Helen was originally supposed to be about 24 ..based on a real life governor at Holloway women's prison, who fast tracked through Uni...etc

I would guess that they couldn't find an experienced enough actress who looked 24 ish~so went for the superior acting talents of Ms Lahbib..who was 35ish when S1 started. Mandana was 33.

There was much constenation on the MB's regarding Helen's age and by the time the BG book was published she'd been upped to 30 years old, still younger that Nikki.

However, if Helen had stayed at 24 and Nikki 34, it would have thrown their relationship under a totally different light imo.
I'd hate the idea that Nikki was 10 years older than Helen...it draws in all sorts of questions about stereotyping and preditory behaviour and so on.

I always thought of them as about the same age as did everyone else and until 24 was mentioned in an interview at some point everyone had assumed N&H were peers..hence the hoo-haa.

Like the discussions about how long Nikki served, people put forward theory's as to how Helen could be older than mid twenties if she was fast tracked. This is mentioned by both Fenner and Bodybag and they hated the fact that Helen came straight in as a Wing Gov instead of spending years walking the corridors of Larkhall first.

I think the concensus was that Helen didn't start to study for the degree that got her into the prison service until she was in her mid 20's, so by the time she'd finished it 3 or 4 years later, she was up to a more realistic age.

Then of course the debate continued as to what Helen did prior to her mid 20's, did she travel, did she work in a shop, did she start to studying law or medicine. I think she is supposed to have psychcology degree isn't she ? ...lol...all the hypothosising was/is never ending.

In some way I see Nikki as the slightly younger more vunerable of the two ???

COOL

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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:54 pm

How many years did Nikki serve - total?
Another timeline anomaly - Regarding Monica's home visit, she says that it will be 3 and 1/2 weeks until her visit, she tells Spencer that it will be on the 23rd and he writes it in his diary. At the same time as this is happening, Julie is getting her letter from David regarding the fermentation process which takes 4 weeks and they make their brew. When Spencer dies and they decide to "crack open the Chateau Larkhall", Nikki comments that it has only been brewing for 3 weeks, therefore Monica would have been only half a week away from her home visit when Spencer died. But at his funeral, the brass plaque on his coffin, gives the date of his death as 1 June 1999 - that does not add up to half a week until the 23rd!

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abzug PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:07 pm

Ah, but we don't know how much time there has been between Spencer's death and his funeral. It could have been a week or longer, in which case this is vital information for our timeline! So let's assume that the home visit would have been June 23rd, and that Spencer's funeral was therefore on June 10th-12th (ok, a bit long after his death, but we need a little suspension of disbelief here).

So, to "straighten" out our timeline (I have to say though, this is the queerest timeline I've ever seen, the way its getting all twisted into a pretzel to accomodate all the random pieces of information):

Jan '99: S1E2--Zandra's Arrival
Feb '99: S1E3--Crystal's arrival, S1E4--Zandra's "Abortion"
Mar '99: S1E4--Trish dumps Nikki, S1E5--Nikki attacks Shell
May '99: S1E7--Nikki moves to enhanced
Jun '99: S1E8--Spencer dies
Aug '99: S2E1--Zandra gives birth
Jan '00: S2E6--Helen's visit, Crystal 1 month from release
Feb '00: S2E8--Crystal's original release, Zandra's death
Mar '00: S2E13--Crystal's release, Nikki's escape

Someone, please, save me from myself!

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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:44 pm

How many years did Nikki serve - total?
No, but hang on - the key here is the Chateau Larkhall! It needed 4 weeks from Spencer's visit to Monica but when they drank it at the time of his funeral, it had only been brewing for 3 weeks - so 3 weeks had passed since Spencer's visit!

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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:47 pm

How many years did Nikki serve - total?
Hey! you might have a point about the timeline there! Maybe there is something symbolic about the timeline being "Queer"! Laughing

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abzug PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:37 pm

Re: How many years did Nikki serve - total?
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
Hey! you might have a point about the timeline there! Maybe there is something symbolic about the timeline being "Queer"! Laughing

I can't take all the credit for that idea. I was reading some interview somewhere about The L Word, and the interviewee posited that TLW was very feminist and queer in its non-linearity (ie the whole idea of the chart which has no beginning and no middle and no end, its just a constantly growing and evolving mass). Of course, the non-linearity is what makes TLW so dramatically ineffective, but that's a discussion for another time, another thread....
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ekny PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:19 pm

abzug wrote:
Of course, the non-linearity is what makes TLW so dramatically ineffective.


Oh. I thought it was the crap writing.

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abzug PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:23 pm

Re: How many years did Nikki serve - total?
ekny wrote:
abzug wrote:
Of course, the non-linearity is what makes TLW so dramatically ineffective.


Oh. I thought it was the crap writing.

You say tomato, I say tomahto.

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ekny PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:47 pm


>>Oh. I thought it was the crap writing.

>>>You say tomato, I say tomahto.


Let's call the whole show off!

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Toni~girl PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:02 pm

So.....How looooooooong was Nikki in prison? Wink

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Toni~girl PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:36 pm

Toni~girl wrote:
So.....How looooooooong was Nikki in prison? Wink


Did anyone ever figure this out?

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notsuchabadgirl PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:43 pm

No. nobody could seem to agree. Just something from3-5

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Toni~girl PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:52 pm

notsuchabadgirl wrote:
No. nobody could seem to agree. Just something from3-5


Sad But I want to know.

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notsuchabadgirl PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 10:16 pm

Toni~girl wrote:
notsuchabadgirl wrote:
No. nobody could seem to agree. Just something from3-5


Sad But I want to know.


If you read through from the beginningof the thread, you will still have no idea Rolling Eyes

She is however free now, and in a relationship with a very very gorgeous woman.

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Toni~girl PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 7:36 am

>>She is however free now, and in a relationship with a very very gorgeous woman.


But I want to know. Sad Crying or Very sad
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notsuchabadgirl PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:21 am

You don't give up do you?

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Toni~girl PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:47 pm

>>You don't give up do you?


*Shaking head*

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abzug PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:12 pm

The problem is, season 3 contains NO timeline references that I can find. So all we've been able to do is figure how long Nikki was in prison up to the end of S2, start of S3. After that we've got a total black hole of information. Very very frustrating.

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Toni~girl PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:17 pm

abzug wrote:
The problem is, season 3 contains NO timeline references that I can find. So all we've been able to do is figure how long Nikki was in prison up to the end of S2, start of S3. After that we've got a total black hole of information. Very very frustrating.

Sad
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ekny PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:13 pm

spring is in the air, tra la, tra la. etc.
abzug wrote:
So I guess this means I am the only one still playing this game? That's ok, I don't mind being alone--I've got the voices in my head to keep me company.


Hey, my new meds have reduced the echoing evil-maths voices in me head (well, I rather liked my mock algebra problem; kept hoping some native Scot would pick up on the whole 'lectric brae thing but it was too hermetic so. Did my best, my work here is done etc. www.eureka4you.com/magnetichillworldwide/Ayrshire-UK.htm )

But now! now I can clearly hear through the hormone-haze perking up for the new season... yes, those are loverly birds twittering madly away.

No, really. Re the pathetic fallacy part of this thread, I've been thinking... in a show that doesn't register too many details about the great outdoors (besides day, night, or... Rain), the sheer obstreperousness of those birds in our girls' first big flirtation scene (Helen back from time off) has always kinda pinged away at something in me head. They're loud, man.

Helen! You're back! <chirp!! chirpchirp!!>
Nikki! Flat-pack furniture, Sean, feminism! <tweet! twitter, twitter tweee!>
Helen! Break more rules? <tweet!>
Nikki! Twist my arm! <chirp!>

More meds, evidently.

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abzug PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:39 pm

Nice with the chirping, ekny. You're transcript of the scene was decidedly vivid. Smile

That scene is also one of the few (only?) outside scenes where the outside seems warm and inviting. I mean, Nikki is sunning herself! Most other scenes outside the prison involve characters bundled up, working, etc. But this seems to be the only just-sittin'-enjoyin'-the-outdoors moment in the first three seasons. It can't be an accident, particularly in a show which takes place in such a closed, interior environment.

Also, in other Pathetic Fallacy developments, I was reading a very old thread on the BG Online board, and someone pointed out that right before H&N kiss the first time, its a clear night, and then afterwards its raining. I don't recall this sequence clearly, so I can't state with confidence that its true, but if it is, then its a definite PF moment, I would say.
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ekny PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:37 pm

abzug wrote:
Nice with the chirping, ekny. You're transcript of the scene was decidedly vivid. :-)


Fanks mate! ;) I tried to make it lively an' all.

abzug wrote:
But this seems to be the only just-sittin'-enjoyin'-the-outdoors moment in the first three seasons. It can't be an accident, particularly in a show which takes place in such a closed, interior environment.


Agreed, it's unusually, almost deceptively... normal looking, innit.

(I do think this falls w/in Didi Herman's argument about Shed making lesbian romance 'homonormative'.)

abzug wrote:
Also, in other Pathetic Fallacy developments, I was reading a very old thread on the BG Online board, and someone pointed out that right before H&N kiss the first time, its a clear night, and then afterwards its raining. I don't recall this sequence clearly, so I can't state with confidence that its true, but if it is, then its a definite PF moment, I would say.


Correct: there's a big almost-full-moon shot before H enters the cell, lovely clear night; the transition scene after the kiss is to Monica counting pills for the 89th time, rain pattering lightly in the background, then full-out thunder & downpour for the night-call shot.

One of the more difficult things about picking up these notes is that they're so ingrained to how we read a scene they're well-nigh invisible. Their very obviousness makes them invisible. --e

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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:52 pm

How many years did Nikki serve - total?
I must say I have never noticed the "lovebirds" chirping in the background! I'll have to go back and have another listen! Oh, and by the way ekny - what is with the new avatar? That isn't by any chance some kind of spotty greyhound and you are doing a nasty "Thomas" thing on us are you? Laughing

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abzug PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:41 pm

abzug wrote:
Quote:
Time from S2E8 to S2E13 = 1 month

Here's the problem with this entire attempt, though. How the heck could there be only a month between S2E8 and S2E13? In this time, Helen has time to start a lifer's unit, Nikki gets a lawyer, the lawyer submits her case for appeal, and the appeal gets turned down. All in a month?

Is it possible I am remembering wrong and Crystal got more than 30 extra days for the marajuana?

I know we'vew given up on this attempt a bit (although COOL was kind enough to ask Filbertfox to go right to the source, so perhaps we'll get some answers), but I rewatched S2E8 on BBC-America last night and it turns out that Crystal got "extra days" but they never explicitly said how many. Combine this with the fact that Dr. NoNo said Zandra had "months not years" left, and this leads me to believe that the time between S2E8 and S2E13 is longer than a month. Maybe 3 months? Its reassuring, really, because it means that the "happy" part of H&N's romance was maybe 5 months long (not counting the letter writing period before Helen's return to Larkhall).

notsuchabadgirl wrote:
im thinking about charlie atkins when the judge sentences him to 9 months his defence team say that he has already served 6 on remand , and the judge says he is free to go

Ah! I hadn't noticed this one before, but Charlie is arrested in S2E7 (when Yvonne tries to escape) and his trial is S3E5, so that means there is six months between these two episodes. SO....
Jan '99: S1E2--Zandra's Arrival
Feb '99: S1E3--Crystal's arrival, S1E4--Zandra's "Abortion"
Mar '99: S1E4--Trish dumps Nikki, S1E5--Nikki attacks Shell
May '99: S1E7--Nikki moves to enhanced
Jun '99: S1E8--Spencer dies
Aug '99: S2E1--Zandra gives birth
Jan '00: S2E6--Helen's visit, Crystal 1 month from release
Feb '00: S2E7--Helen starts as Lifer's Liaison at Larkhall, Charlie is arrested; S2E8--Crystal's original release, Zandra's death
May '00: S2E13--Crystal's release*, Nikki's escape
Jul '00: S3E5--Charlie's Trial

*I'm going to say Crystal got 3 extra months, just because I want Helen and Nikki's romance inside to be longer. But think of this as a placeholder until we figure out how much extra time Crystal actually got--I'm hoping they mention it in S2E9?

Slowly but surely, we're getting there....

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ekny PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:27 pm

Re: How many years did Nikki serve - total?
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
by the way ekny - what is with the new avatar? That isn't by any chance some kind of spotty greyhound and you are doing a nasty "Thomas" thing on us are you? :lol:


It's a meercat xing sign; my understanding is the girls down under have an actual chance of seeing one (meercat or sign, take your pick), unlike myself. I have a couple other good shots of them I plan to use; an ex had a thing for them so I still find caches of old images on the hard drive now & then. I don't have a thing for them, myself--& understand they're bad-tempered critters to boot--but they do have that rather singular look. Also they always remind me of Edward Gorey illustrations.

As for changing the avatar, I'm not sure I really 'get' them and one day finally thought okay, well, you can still play with 'em. The whole idea struck me funny so that's my plan & I'm gonna stick to it. ;) --e

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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:30 pm

How many years did Nikki serve - total?
I have to say I would have never have guessed it was a Meerkat - more used to seeing them in the classic standing on their hindlegs pose! It would be the girls in Southern Africa who would be likely to see them and they are quite playful sociable creatures - the Meerkats I mean...well...the girls in Southern Africa too! Very Happy Are you sure your ex wasn't confusing them with Tasmanian Devils, which are bad-tempered critters and the girls down under may indeed have a chance of seeing one. At least it's not a greyhound! Laughing

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ekny PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:04 pm

Re: How many years did Nikki serve - total?
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
At least it's not a greyhound!:lol:


Nope, I've got nuffink against any of em. But I think meercats are not famous for their dispositions, despite their sociability. I thought it was rather an inept graphic too but got it off a meercat site years ago so figured until someone says Oi! bright light! It's a sodding camel, innit! then I'll just go on living with my happy delusions.

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ekny PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:29 pm

abzug wrote:
Is it possible I am remembering wrong and Crystal got more than 30 extra days for the marajuana?


S1ep9 9.00: Josh asks her how many days she got, she answers 30. Sorry.

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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:32 pm

Cross Meerkats Crossing!
Well admittedly the alpha female does sometimes kill off the pups of subordinate females who are wicked enough to go out and get pregnant behind her back! That would certainly warrant being called bad-tempered! (And so that this still has something to do with Nikki Wade - not even Nikki is that bad-tempered!)

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abzug PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:13 am

ekny wrote:
S1ep9 9.00: Josh asks her how many days she got, she answers 30. Sorry.

I knew I hadn't invented that! OK, here's the timeline revision:

Jan '99: S1E2--Zandra's Arrival
Feb '99: S1E3--Crystal's arrival, S1E4--Zandra's "Abortion"
Mar '99: S1E4--Trish dumps Nikki, S1E5--Nikki attacks Shell
May '99: S1E7--Nikki moves to enhanced
Jun '99: S1E8--Spencer dies
Aug '99: S2E1--Zandra gives birth
Jan '00: S2E6--Helen's visit, Crystal 1 month from release
Feb '00: S2E7--Helen starts as Lifer's Liaison at Larkhall, Charlie is arrested; S2E8--Crystal's original release, Zandra's death
Mar '00: S2E13--Crystal's release, Nikki's escape
Jul '00: S3E5--Charlie's Trial

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abzug PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:19 am

Re: spring is in the air, tra la, tra la. etc.
ekny wrote:
the sheer obstreperousness of those birds in our girls' first big flirtation scene (Helen back from time off) has always kinda pinged away at something in me head. They're loud, man.

I was watching the final scene again, and for a moment I swore I heard birds chirping in the background. And I thought to myself, Wow! Those Shed folks really are sticklers for detail, bringing back something as subtle as the birds! Then I realized it was just the squeal of traffic.

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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:20 pm

How many years did Nikki serve - total?
Is it not possible that Crystal was going to be released early for good behaviour, and that after she was found guilty of the cannabis offence, they reinstated the balance of her original sentence, plus the extra month? I've had a quick look and can't find any reference to it, but often people are released before serving their full sentences if they are model prisoners, and other than being a bit mouthy, Crystal generally is!

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abzug PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 6:35 pm

The thing is, there is absolutely no reference to Crystal getting out early, and if we open up our timeline to something so speculative, then we're really left with nothing, no hard evidence. (Which is pretty much where we're at anyway, but with at least the semblance of something substantive).

Can I point out, for those who care, that during the episode of Charlie's trial, Nikki has been in prison for 3 1/2 years, give or take a month or two. And then we've got the remainder of season 3, and lord knows how long that is, but now we know the minimum time she was in prison was 3 1/2 years. That's something, innit?

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ekny PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:01 pm

abzug wrote:
Can I point out, for those who care, that during the episode of Charlie's trial, Nikki has been in prison for 3 1/2 years, give or take a month or two. And then we've got the remainder of season 3, and lord knows how long that is, but now we know the minimum time she was in prison was 3 1/2 years. That's something, innit?


We do care, we do! ;)

I've been tending towards 3½ to low-4 or just under 4. Sometimes I indulge in mental speculation of dubious sanity wherein we gather your figurings & a BIG sheet of kraft paper pinned to the Theoretical Living Room Wall & start drawing a big overlapping chart/timeline. Then I remind myself this is what happens if you try to live off the Muppet Wing for too long without some kind of halfway house arrangement.... -e

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abzug PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:42 pm

ekny wrote:
I've been tending towards 3½ to low-4 or just under 4.

I would say its got to be 4, at a minimum. Its definitely signficantly more than 3 1/2 if we're at 3 1/2 already, and that's 10 eps before the end of season 3. But I definitely think its less than 5. Significantly less than 5.

I'm clearly not even ready for any sort of halfway house. Keep me locked up and throw away the key, I say!

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ekny PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:51 pm

abzug wrote:
I would say its got to be 4, at a minimum. Its definitely signficantly more than 3 1/2 if we're at 3 1/2 already, and that's 10 eps before the end of season 3. But I definitely think its less than 5. Significantly less than 5.

I'm clearly not even ready for any sort of halfway house. Keep me locked up and throw away the key, I say!


Agreed to both. I was just making a feeble attempt to pass for normal, dunno why I still bother esp among folks of the same Ilk. --e
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COOLUK1 PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 1:09 am

hi abzug
How do you know that Nikki has been in prison for 3 1/2 years at the time of Charlie's trial?
Your excellent research lists events that cover about 18 months.
If Nikki was on remand for about a year before her trial, are you assuming that she had been on G wing for a year after her trial, prior to Zandra's arrival ?

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abzug PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:41 am

Hiya COOL--

I was basing that assumption on the scene she has with Trisha where there's some reference to her having been in jail for two years. So then I tacked the 18 additional months onto that. Does that not seem right? Am I mis-remembering the dialogue with Trisha?

And can someone help me remember why the heck I started the timeline in January? That initial month is now feeling rather arbitrary, given that the two dates we have on Nikki's files were May 6, 1997 and November 1996. Argh, I feel like a dog chasing its tail....

Last edited by abzug on Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:58 am; edited 1 time in total

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ekny PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:56 am

abzug wrote:
I was basing that assumption on the scene she has with Trisha where there's some reference to her having been in jail for two years. So then I tacked the 18 additional months onto that. Does that not seem right? Am I mis-remembering the dialogue with Trisha?


The dialogue w/T said 2 years, yes. --e

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COOLUK1 PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:06 am

Ahhh ...yes I'd forgotten Trish's comment.

I can't rememeber what the circumstances were as to why there were the two dates on Nikki's files were....Was one when she was initially imprisoned and the second when she'd been sentanced?

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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:25 am

How many years did Nikki serve - total?
Yes Cool, the May 1997 one was the date on the mugshot on her file (the one which H was looking at when she shipped her out. The November 1996 one was on the judges recommendations regarding how long she serve before being considered for parole. So that one must have been at the time of her trial and sentencing. The May mugshot must have been taken when she entered Larkhall, like we see old Bodybag doing on a few occasions. Which means that there was 6 months between her sentencing and her being admitted to Larkhall, so was she possibly on remand somewhere else?

Woohoo ekny! Another Meerkat! You really are sticking to your plan to change your avatar on a regular basis. At least this one definitely is a Meerkat and not a camel, but I'd have thought you might have gone for a fluffy little squirrel - perhaps a stuffed one! Very Happy
I had another listen to your twittering birds in the garden scene and I was just wondering if there isn't more Pathetic Fallacy in this scene than we realize. Unfortunately I am not too clued up on my British bird calls, but is it possible that the birds twittering in the background are Great Tits? Laughing

(I had a quick look and their song is apparently a repeated two note tea-cher tea-cher or see-too see-too! Perhaps that might also be described as see two! Laughing )

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ekny PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:40 am

Re: How many years did Nikki serve - total?
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:

Woohoo ekny! Another Meerkat! You really are sticking to your plan to change your avatar on a regular basis. At least this one definitely is a Meerkat and not a camel, but I'd have thought you might have gone for a fluffy little squirrel - perhaps a stuffed one! :-D


Nup, don't even wanna think abt the little buggers when they're out of sight. The thing the meerkat is standing on is a termite mound: about 20'. Eeew.

Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
I had another listen to your twittering birds in the garden scene and I was just wondering if there isn't more Pathetic Fallacy in this scene than we realize. Unfortunately I am not too clued up on my British bird calls, but is it possible that the birds twittering in the background are Great Tits? :lol:


Good heavens, is there no end to the madness?! Birdcalls are out of my purview, but perhaps someone else will know what it is. (And what *is* the matter with the lot of us, thinking up racy bird-calls on Saturday night. Geez, maybe you should visit a local watering hole & try out your calls on some real birds.) ;) As for me, I'm gonna go trundle off for an early mid-evening nap: my own Mode is rather more cat-like. --e

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abzug PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:23 am

Re: How many years did Nikki serve - total?
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
Yes Cool, the May 1997 one was the date on the mugshot on her file (the one which H was looking at when she shipped her out. The November 1996 one was on the judges recommendations regarding how long she serve before being considered for parole.

In that case, we can assume Trish's 2-yr comment related to the Nov '96 date, which would have been when Nikki was first incarcerated. SOOOO,

Nov '98: S1E2--Zandra's Arrival
Dec '98: S1E3--Crystal's arrival, S1E4--Zandra's "Abortion"
Jan '99: S1E4--Trish dumps Nikki, S1E5--Nikki attacks Shell
Mar '99: S1E7--Nikki moves to enhanced
Apr '99: S1E8--Spencer dies
Jun '99: S2E1--Zandra gives birth
Nov '99: S2E6--Helen's visit, Crystal 1 month from release
Dec '99: S2E7--Helen starts as Lifer's Liaison at Larkhall, Charlie is arrested, S2E8--Crystal's original release, Zandra's death
Jan '00: S2E13--Crystal's release, Nikki's escape
May '00: S3E5--Charlie's Trial

In a way, these dates work a little better, because in season 1 at least they correspond with when the episodes were filmed (most likely, don't know for sure).

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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:15 pm

Re: Birdcalls
Actually ekny, I thought they couldn't be Blue Tits because it looked quite warm and sunny. Unfortunately as it was London & not some rocky coastal cliff, it was unlikely to be a Shag and hopefully for H & N it was not a Thrush!

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ekny PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:36 am

Re: How many years did Nikki serve - total?
abzug wrote:
In that case, we can assume Trish's 2-yr comment related to the Nov '96 date, which would have been when Nikki was first incarcerated. SOOOO,

Nov '98: S1E2--Zandra's Arrival
[...]

In a way, these dates work a little better, because in season 1 at least they correspond with when the episodes were filmed (most likely, don't know for sure).


Abzug, do you have date-specific events tied in to each/any of these markers? I mean, the thing about Zandra's arrival (or Monica's) only helps me if it's specifically date-related, do you see what I mean? So if it were like; Zandra diagnosed, episode-whatever; then, Dr. No-no says 3 weeks til next hospital-date, it'd help me more to get the relative times you're figuring out clearer in me head. --e

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abzug PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:00 pm

Re: How many years did Nikki serve - total?
ekny wrote:
Abzug, do you have date-specific events tied in to each/any of these markers? I mean, the thing about Zandra's arrival (or Monica's) only helps me if it's specifically date-related, do you see what I mean? So if it were like; Zandra diagnosed, episode-whatever; then, Dr. No-no says 3 weeks til next hospital-date, it'd help me more to get the relative times you're figuring out clearer in me head. --e

Yeah, but you have to go back to my two initial timeline posts, where I broke it down this way (ie in S1E7 Shell says its been two months since Nikki attacked her, which was in S1E5, so there are two months between those two episodes). Check out page 1 of the thread--I can't bear to go through it again--I am being so masochistic with this topic....

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ekny PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:35 pm

Re: How many years did Nikki serve - total?
abzug wrote:
Check out page 1 of the thread--I can't bear to go through it again--I am being so masochistic with this topic....


Ok, will do, thx--I thought they were valid but wasn't sure why you weren't still using them if so; I did find them more helpful in keeping a running tab on the weeks/months passing.


...Masochistic?

You're saying this to the woman who spent all weekend fretting over a head-turn?

Last edited by ekny on Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:19 am

How many years did Nikki serve - total?
abzug, I don't know if this will help your timeline at all. I am assuming that we are taking the real life filming schedule/seasons (where they happen outdoors) to reflect the time of year/seasons on the show, as we were going to use seasons/the weather to possibly indicate what time of the year it was. If that is the case, then the external shots for the final episode (S3 Ep16) were filmed at Oxford prison on the 3 May 2001 - according to the clapper board on the outtakes. (Nikki was in her court outfit - they would have had to film her getting into the car with Di & Fenner, Helen was wearing the outfit for the shot of her leaving and looking up at Nikki's window.) So we can take the month of her release as being May then.

Given the 2 dates that we know - November 1996 (the judge's sentencing recommendations) and 6 May 1997 (the mugshot), we just have to work out what year she was released - are they working in real time 2001 or is it 2000 or even 1999? Any of those would give us would give us a sentence of more than the 3 years which the appeal judge says she has already served. She is likely to have been incarcerated prior to the sentencing recommendations, as a cop-killer she is unlikely surely to have been given bail. I don't know how long it would have taken for her to come to trial. Again as a cop-killer, it would probably have been quite quickly, especially as her original defence team seem to have not taken any time to uncover any incriminating stuff about Gossard, so it was probably cut & dried.

We can cut out 1999 however, because of Trisha's remark in S1 Ep4 about it having been 2 years - November 96 plus 2 years takes us to Nov 98 (and even allowing for the time post-arrest and pre-sentencing) and there is definitely not only 6 months (plus a bit extra) from S1 Ep4 to S3 Ep16! So if it was 2000 it would give us 3 & a half years served (plus a bit extra), which would mean a period of aproximately 18 months (T didn't neccessarily mean exactly a year - although she might have said "over 2 years" or "almost 2 years" if it hadn't been) from S1 Ep4 to S3 Ep16.
Alternatively if it was 2001, it would have meant 4 & a half years (plus extra) served and 2 & a half years from 1:4 to 3:16. I don't know how those figures fit in with your other workings. Maybe we need to go back and see if we can work out how many Summers/Winters they go through.

The other clapper board dates in the outtakes, which don't really mean anything because they are indoors, are S1 Ep 6 - March 1999 and S2 Ep 4 (rather strangely) also in 1999 - 29 November.

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abzug PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:05 pm

I know I was the one to introduce the concept of when the show was written/filmed to help us with the timeline, but I am a bit hesitant to use this information broadly. I thought it made tenuous sense as a way of figuring out the kick off of the show and its characters, or, at least, to further confirm some dates we had already pieced together from the show itself.

But after the world of Bad Girls begins, to use the production timeline to inform the show timeline is potentially problematic. First, because the broadcast schedule and the production schedule are dependent on actors and network schedules, and therefore have little to do with the story itself. Second, because the world of Larkhall, once it begins, has always operated on its own timeline--the Larkhall time between two episodes can be months or minutes, but its always a week to 10 days for the scriptwriters, actors and producers.

Sorry for opening that particular can of worms. Smile

In other news on this topic, does anyone recall how long Dominic's vacation was supposed to be? Because I was thinking its probably 2 weeks or so, and his scheduled return is during S3E3 (right? because Gina shows up in S3E4, and she's his replacement). 'Course, its still a puzzle to figure out how much time passes between Dominic's scheduled return and Charlie's trial, so this Dominic info doesn't help all that much.

Someone on another board pointed out that Crystal might have gotten extra time for assualting Dr. No No, which could be used to justify a theory that there is more than one month between S2E8 (Crystal's original release date) and S2E13 (her new release date).

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ekny PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:08 pm

Re: How many years did Nikki serve - total?
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
I am assuming that we are taking the real life filming schedule/seasons (where they happen outdoors) to reflect the time of year/seasons on the show, as we were going to use seasons/the weather to possibly indicate what time of the year it was. If that is the case, then the external shots for the final episode (S3 Ep16) were filmed at Oxford prison on the 3 May 2001 - according to the clapper board on the outtakes. [...]

The other clapper board dates in the outtakes, which don't really mean anything because they are indoors, are S1 Ep 6 - March 1999 and S2 Ep 4 (rather strangely) also in 1999 - 29 November.


I admire your demented brilliance--clapper boards from the outtakes, ohboy. Really, they should have nameplates on the benches women sit on outside the Muppet Wing while they wait peacefully for their medication, & one should certainly be in your honor.

Two logical objections, though, & then am ducking out of this one, timeline stuff is not my strong suit to begin with! 1) If you're using clapper dates for one set of figurings (Nikki's release), then it doesn't make sense to discount them for other things; they should either be 'valid' or not, seems to me. 2) My larger issue is that I never assumed we *were* taking real-life schedules for filming as anything to do with the show's internal time-line; am not sure why we would--but then as I said, timeline stuff is not my forte so perhaps I'm missing something. --e

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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 1:08 am

How many years did Nikki serve - total?
Are we allowed to use the seasons/weather then to work out the timeline? Surely we can do that, because it is what we are given.
abzug, looking at your datelines, I think the one you had before this last one was closer to being correct, except at the end where I think it goes too quickly.

I am going to work backwards a bit here.
S1 Ep10 - Monica's release - newsreader says she has served 7 months of a 5 year sentence. She would have been on bail and not on remand,when she is 1st admitted to Larkhall she has obviously come straight from court, she is still trying to make arrangements for Spencer.

S1 Ep8 - Spencer's death - date of this on coffin 1st June 1999.
Monica's appeal is not that long after that - possibly July.

S1 Ep 2 - Monica arrives 7 months previously - so January 1999.

S2 Ep 1 - Zan has her baby - she also arrived with Monica - she was probably + - a month pregnant as she only became aware that she was pregnant after she got to Larkhall - so possibly August/September 1999.

Helen leaves not long after Zan has her baby, in Ep 2 - maybe October.

S2 Ep 5 - Mad Tessa arrives - has mugshot taken with date 29 /11/99
At the same time message "Have VO will C U soon" arrives.

Helen visits Nikki in Ep 6 - not long after Tessa's arrival - maybe December. She starts her new job soon after that.

S3 Ep 3 - Julie stays with Monica - there are St Joseph's Lilies in the vase - maybe Feb, she still has a fire going.

S 3 Ep 4 - There is a file on the shelf in Karen's office that is labelled "Paperwork 99 - 2000"

S3 Ep 6 - Rosebushes in the garden still haven't started getting leaves.

S3 Ep 10 - Julies have daffodils out of the garden for Crystal's wedding - end of March.

S3 Ep 11 - Daffodils still in garden and roses are beginning to get leaves - possibly March/ beginning of April.

Which would take us quite nicely to May 2000, because even disregarding the outtake clapper board, the weather looks right for May! It doesn't look like Summer yet. So that would make it 3 and a half years!
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abzug PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 11:46 pm

Re: How many years did Nikki serve - total?
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
S3 Ep 10 - Julies have daffodils out of the garden for Crystal's wedding - end of March.

S3 Ep 11 - Daffodils still in garden and roses are beginning to get leaves - possibly March/ beginning of April.

Which would take us quite nicely to May 2000, because even disregarding the outtake clapper board, the weather looks right for May! It doesn't look like Summer yet. So that would make it 3 and a half years!

The only problem with this is that the weather clues don't match the script, particularly the part about Charlie's time served between his arrest and his trial. That information makes it very certain that S3E5 is in May 2000. But the additional information about Monica's time served, Spencer's death, and Mad Tessa's arrival actually fits in quite nicely with the outline we had created before, once its shifted back to starting in January '99:

Jan '99: S1E2--Zandra and Monica's Arrival
Feb '99: S1E3--Crystal's arrival, S1E4--Zandra's "Abortion"
Mar '99: S1E4--Trish dumps Nikki, S1E5--Nikki attacks Shell
May '99: S1E7--Nikki moves to enhanced
Jun '99: S1E8--Spencer dies
Jul '99: S1E10--Monica is released
Aug '99: S2E1--Zandra gives birth, Helen's return
Nov/Dec '99: S2E5--Mad Tessa's Arrival
Dec/Jan '00: S2E6--Helen's visit, Crystal 1 month from release
Feb '00: S2E7--Helen starts as Lifer's Liaison at Larkhall, Charlie is arrested, S2E8--Crystal's original release, Zandra's death
Mar '00: S2E13--Crystal's release, Nikki's escape
May '00: S3E5--Charlie's Trial

I agree its rushed there at the end of season 2, but we're kind of forced into it, unless we believe that Crystal got extra time for attacking Dr. No No. The question is whether all the action of the last two thirds of season 3 could have taken place in the matter of two or three months....

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stunning_simone PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:47 pm

i think she did 5 years in prision
2 on remand and 3 in larkhall
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COOLUK1 PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 2:36 pm

It's very unusual to do 2years on remand ..8 months to a year is about average.
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stunning_simone PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:05 pm

aww ok then its just that nikki was only there for about a year before helen

oh i get it maybe she done 1 year on remand and 4 at larkhall
lol
hehehexxxxxxxxxx

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aquarius68 PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:45 am

How many years did Nikki serve in Prision
Hi everyone , I'd like to put my view across about the question:
HOW MANY YEARS DID NIKKI SERVE?
Consider these facts/quotes.
In Great Britain A Life Sentence is 12 - 15yrs imprisionment.
TV season time does not represent real time.
Nikki's Larkhall mugshot is dated May 1997.
S1, Ep4. When Trish visits Nikki in prision, Nikki says to her,
"from now on I'm going to keep my nose clean....I could be out
in 10 yrs...."
Then Trish tells Nikki she's found someone else & that they have
been apart for 2 yrs. ( 10+2=12)
In S2 Ep7 In the cell Nikki says To Helen it will be 9 yrs until she
is set free.
S3 Ep 16 Fenner tells Thomas Waugh that Nikki & Helen have been
shagging each other for months, which confirms what I have always
thought, that N&H's relationship lasted about 1 yr in prision (2+1=3)
Rembering a Life Sentence in GB is 12 - 15 yrs, in Nikki's case likely
to be 12 yrs as Nikki is expecting to serve another 9 yrs midway in
S2 (12 - 9=3). Therefore, Nikki serves a total of 3 yrs in prision,
probebly 3 and a half yrs (2001 - May '97 = 3.5).
That's what I reckon anyway!!!

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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:28 pm

How many years did Nikki serve - total?
abzug, can we assume that each series represents more or less the same length of time, regardless of the number of episodes in the series? In that case Barbara Hunt is given a 3 year sentence which starts in S2 ep5 and ends between the final ep of S5 and the 1st ep of S6. (Apparently 6 weeks has passed between the end of 5 & the beginning of 6 and during this time Barbara has been released - the Julies make reference to her & have had a postcard from her.) We know she has served her full 3 year sentence because she forfeits her chance of early release, in order to protest with the other women against the privatisation of the prison (Series 5). So in this instance 3 years is represented by 3 and 7/10 series - this translates to each series representing +- 9/10 months.

This would more or less tie in with:
Monica's 7 months time served, spanning ep2 to the end of S1.
Zan's pregnancy starting just before coming into Larkhall in S1 Ep2 to her giving birth in the 1st ep of S2 (almost a full series).
Crystal's post-wedding escapade in the broom-cupboard (or wherever it was!) in S3 Ep10 and her giving birth in S4 Ep9 ( again almost a full series).
It doesn't work as well with Spencer's death - the beginning of June, to Tessa's mugshot - the end of November a period of 6 months. But that might be because the passage of time within the 9/10 month framework is flexible and varies.

This would mean that (if we are working on each series being 9 months), Nikki has served 2 years by S1 Ep4, she serves the balance of S1 - which maybe 60% of 9 months (unknown because of time flexibility) which is 5.4 months added to 18 months of S2 & S3, which adds up to just under 4 years. If we work on each series representing 10 months, the figures would change to 2 years + 6 months + 20 months, which adds up to 4 yrs and 2 months. So it could possibly be somewhere between the 2!

I don't know - i just thought I'd try another angle! Very Happy

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abzug PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:33 pm

You know, JAMBF, I like this thinking outside the box thing. I also like the fact that your analysis, in all its simplicity, does seem to make sense. And it (roughly) corresponds with the timeline we've already been putting together.

So, to keep up the two-pronged effort, in this week's ep on BBC-A (the one where Renee Williams shows up), Dominic makes some comment about Crystal being on the block "for a few weeks" which leads me to believe she did get extra time for assaulting Dr. No No. So that would give us a bit more time for the end of season 2, maybe an extra month or so:
Jan '99: S1E2--Zandra and Monica's Arrival
Feb '99: S1E3--Crystal's arrival, S1E4--Zandra's "Abortion"
Mar '99: S1E4--Trish dumps Nikki, S1E5--Nikki attacks Shell
May '99: S1E7--Nikki moves to enhanced
Jun '99: S1E8--Spencer dies
Jul '99: S1E10--Monica is released
Aug '99: S2E1--Zandra gives birth, Helen's return
Nov/Dec '99: S2E5--Mad Tessa's Arrival
Dec/Jan '00: S2E6--Helen's visit, Crystal 1 month from release
Feb '00: S2E7--Helen starts as Lifer's Liaison at Larkhall, Charlie is arrested, S2E8--Crystal's original release, Zandra's death
Apr '00: S2E13--Crystal's release, Nikki's escape
Aug '00: S3E5--Charlie's Trial

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abzug PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 9:13 pm

Picture it: I'm sitting in the theatre, watching an incredible production of the musical Sweeney Todd. Then, a character says "He said he'd be here before the week is out" and immediately I think to myself, "Aha! That means its been less than a week since that scene earlier in the act, which was only a few days after Sweeney arrived back in London!" My mind started solving similar timeline puzzles throughout the second act as well ("Married on Sunday, that's what you promised, married on Sunday. That was last August"--my mind starts going ding ding ding!). I have to admit, I'm scared, now that the timeline compulsion has spread to other areas of my life. Does anyone have any antidotes to suggest?

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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:11 am

How many years did Nikki serve - total?
Oh dear! You are in a bad way abzug! You'll be making up a Sweeney Todd timeline wallchart next! Have you been experiencing any other signs of insanity, like baying at the moon, or is it just this timeline OCD? If so, take a paracetamol and call me in the morning! Laughing

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abzug PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:22 pm

The timeline lady is back. Just watched S3E8, the one where Shell and Denny torture Sylvia. Interestingly, this episode and the previous one take place over the course of two weeks at most, b/c Josh is at his PO training class for both these episodes, and we know that class is only a few weeks long (Di made some comment in S3E6, if I recall). S3E8, in particular, is definitely three days long--its very specific. So, going out on a bit of a limb here to try to help us see how long season 3 is, I'm making the assumption that all the Helen-Pam Jolly business takes place in the month following Charlie's trial.

Jan '99: S1E2--Zandra and Monica's Arrival
Feb '99: S1E3--Crystal's arrival, S1E4--Zandra's "Abortion"
Mar '99: S1E4--Trish dumps Nikki, S1E5--Nikki attacks Shell
May '99: S1E7--Nikki moves to enhanced
Jun '99: S1E8--Spencer dies
Jul '99: S1E10--Monica is released
Aug '99: S2E1--Zandra gives birth, Helen's return
Nov/Dec '99: S2E5--Mad Tessa's Arrival
Dec/Jan '00: S2E6--Helen's visit, Crystal 1 month from release
Feb '00: S2E7--Helen starts as Lifer's Liaison at Larkhall, Charlie is arrested, S2E8--Crystal's original release, Zandra's death
Apr '00: S2E13--Crystal's release, Nikki's escape
Aug '00: S3E5--Charlie's Trial
Sep '00: S3E6--Pam Jolly on G-Wing, Fenner attacks Helen
Oct '00: S3E7--documentary film crew, S3E8--Shell and Denny torture Sylvia and escape to Spain, S3E9--Charlotte Myddleton arrives, Josh starts as a PO, Crystal returns to Larkhall

This all makes me think that the riot and its fall out happen not very long after the whole escape debacle, and as we know, the riot-related episodes also all happen over the course of just a handful of days. Which makes me think that the entire last 2/3 of season 3 could actually represent just 2-3 months.

Edited to Add: Just watched S3E9, the one with Charlotte Myddleton, and the episode very explicitly takes place over 12-14 days. There is a reference to another con who is doing 10 days for shoplifting who came in at the same time as Charlotte. This is also when Josh returns, during the last few days of the episode, so its pretty clear that it starts the same day or day after S3E8 left off. So I added S3E9 to Oct '00 as well.

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abzug PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:11 pm

One more little bit to add. Just watched S3E10, the one where Crystal and Josh get married and Nikki finds out about her appeal. Like the previous episode, this one takes place over a very definitive period of time: 2 days. And its explicitly 5 days after Crystal tested positive for drugs, since there is a reference to her having been on hunger strike for 5 days. So that's 6 days total following immediately on the end of S3E9. I thereby decree that this episode can be included in the same month as the film crew, the escape and the drug test. This episode also marks the arrival of the Peckham girls, and if I recall correctly the riot happens soon after their arrival, so we'll see how the final months of S3 play out, but I don't think there is a long time between now and Nikki's appeal.

Jan '99: S1E2--Zandra and Monica's Arrival
Feb '99: S1E3--Crystal's arrival, S1E4--Zandra's "Abortion"
Mar '99: S1E4--Trish dumps Nikki, S1E5--Nikki attacks Shell
May '99: S1E7--Nikki moves to enhanced
Jun '99: S1E8--Spencer dies
Jul '99: S1E10--Monica is released
Aug '99: S2E1--Zandra gives birth, Helen's return
Nov/Dec '99: S2E5--Mad Tessa's Arrival
Dec/Jan '00: S2E6--Helen's visit, Crystal 1 month from release
Feb '00: S2E7--Helen starts as Lifer's Liaison at Larkhall, Charlie is arrested, S2E8--Crystal's original release, Zandra's death
Apr '00: S2E13--Crystal's release, Nikki's escape
Aug '00: S3E5--Charlie's Trial
Sep '00: S3E6--Pam Jolly on G-Wing, Fenner attacks Helen
Oct '00: S3E7--documentary film crew, S3E8--Shell and Denny torture Sylvia and escape to Spain, S3E9--Charlotte Myddleton arrives, Josh starts as a PO, Crystal returns to Larkhall , S3E10--Nikki's appeal is granted, Crystal & Josh get married, Peckham girls arrive

And if we still assume that Nikki entered Larkhall in May of '97, then it appears she spends at least 3 1/2 years in jail.

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abzug PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 4:59 pm

Okie doke. Just watched the two riot episodes. Both of which have very specific timelines. The first, S3E11 where we meet Femi and the riot begins, starts at most two days after the end of the previous episode. We know this because the Peckham girls have just been moved off the intake dorm, and we know prisoners only stay there two days at most (ie over a weekend). Then, we have the following days in these two eps:
Day 1: Nikki talks to Helen about Femi, Femi gets beaten up and put on the block
Day 2: Nikki gets pushy about Femi, Helen won't give her any info. That night the riot begins (and ends)
Day 3: The riot is over, everyone is locked in their cells--this is when the cell searches occur
Day 4 (or maybe Day 5): Everyone is let out of their cells, Caroline and Nikki get together (both the potting shed scene and the library scene happen the same day). This is the day before the Julies get released.
Day 5: Caroline gets shipped out, the Julies get released and re-arrested. Helen and Thomas leave for the conference.

So, this is a long-winded way of saying that we're at most at the beginning of November. AND, we've got two more timeline clues which will pay off in the next episode or two. Crystal and Josh talked about her case and mentioned that she was seeing her solicitor "next week"--it wasn't totally clear to me if this was for the trial, or for pre-trial preparation. Plus, we know the conference was just a few days long, and if I recall correctly, Helen & Thomas have just returned at the start of the next episode. But I haven't rewatched that one yet, so I can't say for sure.

Jan '99: S1E2--Zandra and Monica's Arrival
Feb '99: S1E3--Crystal's arrival, S1E4--Zandra's "Abortion"
Mar '99: S1E4--Trish dumps Nikki, S1E5--Nikki attacks Shell
May '99: S1E7--Nikki moves to enhanced
Jun '99: S1E8--Spencer dies
Jul '99: S1E10--Monica is released
Aug '99: S2E1--Zandra gives birth, Helen's return
Nov/Dec '99: S2E5--Mad Tessa's Arrival
Dec/Jan '00: S2E6--Helen's visit, Crystal 1 month from release
Feb '00: S2E7--Helen starts as Lifer's Liaison at Larkhall, Charlie is arrested, S2E8--Crystal's original release, Zandra's death
Apr '00: S2E13--Crystal's release, Nikki's escape
Aug '00: S3E5--Charlie's Trial, Nikki gets a witness
Sep '00: S3E6--Pam Jolly on G-Wing, Fenner attacks Helen
Oct '00: S3E7--documentary film crew, S3E8--Shell and Denny torture Sylvia and escape to Spain, S3E9--Charlotte Myddleton arrives, Josh starts as a PO, Crystal returns to Larkhall , S3E10--Nikki's appeal is granted, Crystal & Josh get married, Peckham girls arrive
Start of Nov '00: S3E11--Femi arrives, riot begins, S3E12--riot ends, Nikki and Caroline get together

Can I also point out one thing? Nikki and Caroline's "relationship" if you can call it that, lasted about 24 hours. Or, if you want to count it from when they first met, then it lasted about 3-4 days. Poor Nikki--she didn't even get a decent fling out of it!

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abzug PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 6:06 pm

Pathetic Fallacy
I can't believe no one ever mentioned it in this thread (and I just skimmed through the whole thing, so I am pretty sure no one did), but it is RAINING when Helen and Thomas are sitting in the car outside the brothel the first time. This is right before they go to the dog races, and its when she kisses him on the cheek. Very friendly flirtatious scene, but the rain tells us otherwise--Helen is crying inside! (Or, maybe Nikki is crying inside?)

In other news, S3E13 (when the Julies return to Larkhall, Helen and Thomas return from the conference etc), takes place over 4 days, and day 1 is the last day of the previous episode. Then, things get a bit more loosey goosey in S3E14, because we see Fenner at the brothels, but we don't know exactly how many days later it is. Can't be more than a few, since Gina confronts Di and Mark at the start of this episode, and she's just found out about them at the very end of the previous one. The other information we have is Yvonne apologizes to Shaz for not protecting her against the PBG "last week"--so regardless its a week later at most.

Let me also point out that this means Helen waited less than two weeks after breaking up with Nikki before getting together with Thomas. Which is slightly better than Nikki getting together with Caroline 2 days later, but still. Does neither one of them have ANY loyalty?

May '97: Nikki enters Larkhall
Jan '99: S1E2--Zandra and Monica's Arrival
Feb '99: S1E3--Crystal's arrival, S1E4--Zandra's "Abortion"
Mar '99: S1E4--Trish dumps Nikki, S1E5--Nikki attacks Shell
May '99: S1E7--Nikki moves to enhanced
Jun '99: S1E8--Spencer dies
Jul '99: S1E10--Monica is released
Aug '99: S2E1--Zandra gives birth, Helen's return
Nov/Dec '99: S2E5--Mad Tessa's Arrival
Dec/Jan '00: S2E6--Helen's visit, Crystal 1 month from release
Feb '00: S2E7--Helen starts as Lifer's Liaison at Larkhall, Charlie is arrested, S2E8--Crystal's original release, Zandra's death
Apr '00: S2E13--Crystal's release, Nikki's escape
Aug '00: S3E5--Charlie's Trial, Nikki gets a witness
Sep '00: S3E6--Pam Jolly on G-Wing, Fenner attacks Helen
Oct '00: S3E7--documentary film crew, S3E8--Shell and Denny torture Sylvia and escape to Spain, S3E9--Charlotte Myddleton arrives, Josh starts as a PO, Crystal returns to Larkhall , S3E10--Nikki's appeal is granted, Crystal & Josh get married, Peckham girls arrive
1st half Nov '00: S3E11--Femi arrives, riot begins, S3E12--riot ends, Nikki and Caroline get together, S3E13--Julies released and re-arrested, Helen & Thomas start flirting, S3E14--Helen gets together with Thomas

Note, in other news, that Crystal's court case is scheduled for "next Monday", so even S3E15 (which I haven't yet rewatched) probably takes place during Nov '00.

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ekny PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 6:11 pm

Re: Pathetic Fallacy
abzug wrote:
I can't believe no one ever mentioned it in this thread (and I just skimmed through the whole thing, so I am pretty sure no one did), but it is RAINING when Helen and Thomas are sitting in the car outside the brothel the first time.


Someone did point this out, sorry I can't remember who!

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abzug PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:41 am

Drumroll Please!
We have an answer, ladies and gentleman, to the question of how long Nikki was in prison.

Just watched the last two episodes, and S3E15 takes place over the two days of Crystal's appeal, which as we know is less than a week after the end of the previous episode (since her appeal was scheduled for "next monday"). Then, S3E16 takes place the three days after the end of S3E15, so the two of them together take place over 5 days.


Nov '96: Nikki is sentenced
May '97: Nikki enters Larkhall
Jan '99: S1E2--Zandra and Monica's Arrival
Feb '99: S1E3--Crystal's arrival, S1E4--Zandra's "Abortion"
Mar '99: S1E4--Trish dumps Nikki, S1E5--Nikki attacks Shell
May '99: S1E7--Nikki moves to enhanced
Jun '99: S1E8--Spencer dies
Jul '99: S1E10--Monica is released
Aug '99: S2E1--Zandra gives birth, Helen's return
Nov/Dec '99: S2E5--Mad Tessa's Arrival
Dec/Jan '00: S2E6--Helen's visit, Crystal 1 month from release
Feb '00: S2E7--Helen starts as Lifer's Liaison at Larkhall, Charlie is arrested, S2E8--Crystal's original release, Zandra's death
Apr '00: S2E13--Crystal's release, Nikki's escape
Aug '00: S3E5--Charlie's Trial, Nikki gets a witness
Sep '00: S3E6--Pam Jolly on G-Wing, Fenner attacks Helen
Oct '00: S3E7--documentary film crew, S3E8--Shell and Denny torture Sylvia and escape to Spain, S3E9--Charlotte Myddleton arrives, Josh starts as a PO, Crystal returns to Larkhall , S3E10--Nikki's appeal is granted, Crystal & Josh get married, Peckham girls arrive
Nov '00: S3E11--Femi arrives, riot begins, S3E12--riot ends, Nikki and Caroline get together, S3E13--Julies released and re-arrested, Helen & Thomas start flirting, S3E14--Helen gets together with Thomas, S3E15--Nikki finds out about Thomas, Helen catches Fenner, S3E16--Helen resigns, Nikki wins her appeal

Conclusion: Counting from the date she entered Larkhall, Nikki was in prison from May '97 through November '00, a total of 3 1/2 years. If you count it from her sentencing in November '96, she was in jail a total of 4 years.

Some interesting other timeline tidbits to note:
1. Helen and Nikki were only broken up for about a month (from the riot til Nikki is freed on appeal).
2. Crystal starts telling people she's pregnant when she's only 4 or 5 weeks pregnant
3. Its only 2 months or so between Fenner's assault on Helen and her resignation
4. Its only 6 months between the night Helen and Nikki slept together and when Nikki is freed and they get back together
5. Helen and Thomas are only "together" for a few weeks. Like, less than three. They had a few weeks of flirtation before that, but that's all....
6. It appears Helen only worked at Larkhall for about 2 years total--and got two promotions in that time! You go girl!

Thanks for tuning in, folks. Smile
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ekny
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COOLUK1 PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:29 am

wow thanks for all your diligent research!!!!!!

Conclusion: Counting from the date she entered Larkhall, Nikki was in prison from May '97 through November '00, a total of 3 1/2 years. If you count it from her sentencing in November '96, she was in jail a total of 4 years.

Ooo 3.5 to 4 years ...I seem to remember saying that some time ago in this thread...and now you've come up with the evidence...lol..well done

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ekny PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:33 am

Re: Drumroll Please!
abzug wrote:
We have an answer, ladies and gentleman, to the question of how long Nikki was in prison.

Conclusion: Counting from the date she entered Larkhall, Nikki was in prison from May '97 through November '00, a total of 3 1/2 years. If you count it from her sentencing in November '96, she was in jail a total of 4 years.


I can only echo CookUK1, you did an awesome amount of work & a very rational layout on this, really impressive. I didn't realize my innocent question was going to turn into someone's magnum opus but I'm glad it's yours, talk about taking the ball & running with it. Wow is right!

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abzug PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:40 am

COOLUK1 wrote:
Ooo 3.5 to 4 years ...I seem to remember saying that some time ago in this thread...and now you've come up with the evidence...lol..well done

Cool, do you EVER sleep? isn't it like 3 am over there? But yeah, I did laugh when the numbers came out to exactly what you had said. But at least know you KNOW, as opposed to THINK that it was this long. Smile

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COOLUK1 PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:11 pm

zzZZZ
I do sleep..don't get enough though ...lol
I was up late as I was collecting some friends from Heathrow Airport.

All went well but their biggest suitcase got lost when they changed planes at Philadelphia...at least it didn't appear in London..unless it was nicked from the carousel of course Sad

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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:53 pm

How many years did Nikki serve - total?
Bravo on the completion of your "magnum opus", as ekny calls it abzug! You deserves extra points for your perseverance! Hopefully now you will be able to sit in a theatre, without having your mind wander off into the realms of how it relates to the Bad Girls timeline! But hang on, what do mean regarding Nikki & Caroline's "relationship" - "Poor Nikki -- she didn't even get a decent fling out of it!" Shocked Really! Just whose side are you on!

By the way, I hope you weren't one of the 70 people suspended above NYC in a stuck cablecar all day!

(Incidentally, I mentioned the rain on the car when H & T were outside the brothel in the "Wow!" thread I think.)

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abzug PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:16 am

Re: How many years did Nikki serve - total?
Just Another Mad Bad Fan wrote:
By the way, I hope you weren't one of the 70 people suspended above NYC in a stuck cablecar all day!

That made the international news?! I mean, I know us NYers think we're the center of the universe, but I thought the rest of the world ignored our transportation escapades. I was laughing this morning as it was the big story on NY1, our cable news network, and I said, only NY1 would think this was a story worth covering for hours and hours. But lo and behold obviously some others picked it up!

But no, I wasn't anywhere near it, thank god, although the subways have been off all day for some reason--its taken forever to get anywhere.

Anyway, thanks for all your help on this particular endeavor--I couldn't have done it without your eye for detail, that's for sure!

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abzug PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 2:04 am

I just watched S4E13, and this show really doesn't care about timeline issues AT ALL! Its so infuriating! Denny has a line about the fact that she re-met her mother in prison "two years ago." WTF?! That happened in season ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There's just no way! I mean, look:

Nov '96: Nikki is sentenced
May '97: Nikki enters Larkhall
Jan '99: S1E2--Zandra and Monica's Arrival
Feb '99: S1E3--Crystal's arrival, S1E4--Zandra's "Abortion"
Mar '99: S1E4--Trish dumps Nikki, S1E5--Nikki attacks Shell, Denny's mother shows up
May '99: S1E7--Nikki moves to enhanced
Jun '99: S1E8--Spencer dies
Jul '99: S1E10--Monica is released
Aug '99: S2E1--Zandra gives birth, Helen's return
Nov/Dec '99: S2E5--Mad Tessa's Arrival
Dec/Jan '00: S2E6--Helen's visit, Crystal 1 month from release
Feb '00: S2E7--Helen starts as Lifer's Liaison at Larkhall, Charlie is arrested, S2E8--Crystal's original release, Zandra's death
Apr '00: S2E13--Crystal's release, Nikki's escape
Aug '00: S3E5--Charlie's Trial, Nikki gets a witness
Sep '00: S3E6--Pam Jolly on G-Wing, Fenner attacks Helen
Oct '00: S3E7--documentary film crew, S3E8--Shell and Denny torture Sylvia and escape to Spain, S3E9--Charlotte Myddleton arrives, Josh starts as a PO, Crystal returns to Larkhall , S3E10--Nikki's appeal is granted, Crystal & Josh get married, Peckham girls arrive
Nov '00: S3E11--Femi arrives, riot begins, S3E12--riot ends, Nikki and Caroline get together, S3E13--Julies released and re-arrested, Helen & Thomas start flirting, S3E14--Helen gets together with Thomas, S3E15--Nikki finds out about Thomas, Helen catches Fenner, S3E16--Helen resigns, Nikki wins her appeal
Mar '01: S4E13--Denny's 21st birthday

How is that even possible?! Crystal got pregnant in Oct '00, had her baby, lived with the baby for a few months on the mother and baby unit, and then moved back to G wing, all in the five months between Oct '00 and Mar '01?!

<sigh> Why oh why do I have to notice these things? Ignorance is bliss, truly.

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Canadabadgirl PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 3:31 am

Abzug, you're taking the airtime to be "real" time, when the implication in several episodes is that huge amounts of time go by between scenes involving the same characters (Carol's recovery, Trisha's defection and Helen and Thomas's relationships spring to mind) and single evenings (like Bodybag's party) take months to occur. All we know for sure is that Nikki served more than 3 years. The rest is just speculation based on a program that, as you've noted, played fast and loose with the details. That way madness lies, I think. I mean, if actual storylines could use the rules about flowers in cells and change those rules from one year to the next...

Ok, I've actually read only your last post because I'm eavesdropping on a wireless signal and it's a bit unstable.

Hope all is well in the Big Apple. Off to bed...

A.

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abzug PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 11:08 am

Canadabadgirl wrote:
Abzug, you're taking the airtime to be "real" time, when the implication in several episodes is that huge amounts of time go by between scenes involving the same characters (Carol's recovery, Trisha's defection and Helen and Thomas's relationships spring to mind) and single evenings (like Bodybag's party) take months to occur.

I've heard statements like this before, and honestly I don't really understand what you mean. While there are certainly time warps in certain episodes, sometihng like Bodybag's party takes place in a single night, stretched over three episodes. I don't really understand the concept that it "took months to occur." Some episodes covered many weeks or months of time in Larkhall, others took place over a single day, or a few days.

I actually wasn't taking airtime to be real time--I was looking for timeline clues within the text of the episodes (references to specific dates, statements about how much time has passed between one occurrence and another), and the timeline is based on those clues. I actually think its pretty accurate--there were very few pieces of information which contradicted the timeline, as it turned out. The vast majority of evidence supported it.

However, the statement by Denny in S4E13 is particularly contradictory, and given that it is such a clear statement, its rather annoying that way. But even so, I think the timeline still stands, especially given that we were just trying to look at seasons 1-3 only.

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Canadabadgirl PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 12:27 pm

abzug wrote:
I actually wasn't taking airtime to be real time--I was looking for timeline clues within the text of the episodes (references to specific dates, statements about how much time has passed between one occurrence and another), and the timeline is based on those clues. I actually think its pretty accurate--there were very few pieces of information which contradicted the timeline, as it turned out. The vast majority of evidence supported it.


Ok, have you considered the seasons and the clothing as they relate to your timeline? Zandra escaping in a hospital gown and complaining about the "twatted" windows in the midsummer heat, Nikki's gardening attire, e.g.

I'm just saying that timlenes never seemed to be much of a consideration in BG and it's a show, even in the first 3 series, best taken at face value with its broad themes and strong main characters.

Oops, late for work. TTYL - if I can!

A.

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Just Another Mad Bad Fan PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 1:14 pm

How many years did Nikki serve - total?
ABZUG! You aren't in HERE again are you! I thought you'd got the timeline all done and dusted. Now you're starting on Series 4! I think you'd better just ignore it and stick with Series 1-3 or you are never going to get any sleep again - you've still got another 4 series at least to go!

Then to torture you some more, CBG runs into the room and suggests something provocative like, the implication is that "huge amounts of time go by" in Helen & Thomas's relationship, and then runs out again protesting loudly about a lack of Broadband connection or something, and a desire for sleep - the latter being a luxury which you won't have if you allow that image of H&T to take hold in your mind...And after you'd just got it down to a short, little fling!

Perhaps you might take comfort in the fact that Denny has only just learned to read - maybe she hasn't started on Maths yet! Oh, and as far as Crystal's pregnancy goes, now there's something that you should have asked on the Dumb Americans thread. Didn't you know that there is a shorter gestation period in England? Something to do with a diet high in jellied eels or something! Laughing

But seriously though, I think you will drive youself crazy if you try to make any sense of anything more than what you have - and I think you have done admirably on S1 - 3. I think from S4 on the timeline is only going to get worse, as more and more new writers come in. I really don't think they are quite as diligent as you, and don't sit down with a giant wall chart and work out how everything fits together in time. They are just more flexible about everything from then on, including the time line, a lot of things involve a suspension of belief!

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mercy23 PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 4:04 am

<gulp>.......please don't tell me they got their timeline ideas from the "creative minds' of The L Word!?!
Wink
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Lisa289
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I dont know if this has been mentioned, but in "Shit Happens", Helen looks at Nikki's file and the picture on the front states that Nikki got put into prison on 6/5/97, if this helps with how long she was in for.
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Lisa289
Jun 1 2006, 06:50 PM
I dont know if this has been mentioned, but in "Shit Happens", Helen looks at Nikki's file and the picture on the front states that Nikki got put into prison on 6/5/97, if this helps with how long she was in for.

Oh yeah, we got that piece of information--see the part I underlined below from the conclusion. I know this thread is a total pain to slog through (it was a pain to write, but I couldn't stop myself!), but I'd be surprised if there's anything we didn't notice at this point. :-)

Quote:
 
Conclusion: Counting from the date she entered Larkhall, Nikki was in prison from May '97 through November '00, a total of 3 1/2 years.
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Lisa289
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ye i just didnt have the time to look through the whole thread, sorry
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ekny
 
insert Pathetic Fallacy thread (optional)

To use a deliberately obvious example:
a couple argues / thunder rattles ominously in background &/or clouds darken.

"The pathetic fallacy is a term from literary criticism used to denote the description of inanimate natural objects in a manner that endows them with human emotions, thoughts, sensations and feelings." (Wikipedia)

[...]

Then I'm thinking of Zandra weeping at the end of S1ep3, the first instance rain's been clearly & deliberately used to punctuate a scene, I think. You could make a case for the producers being pretty sparing with the whole rain-thing, given that it *is* England.

This topic has been discussed pretty thoroughly, but I don't think anyone has ever mentioned the following: on the S1 DVDs, if you go past the main menu to choose a specific "chapter" in an episode, the DVD interface has this whole animated lightning/thunder/rain motif, outside the barred window of the cell. I'm not sure how to explain it any better than that, but you'll see what I mean. I just thought it was notable that the DVD user interface uses only a few motifs (the prison hallway, the prison cell, a guard's shadow and lightning/thunder/rain), and this lightning/thunder/rain thing is one of them. It lends some symbolic significance to the pathetically fallacious ;) moments in the episodes, I would say (in case anyone might still think they're random and/or not meaningful).
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Doesnt the judge who is freeing Nikki say ''im reducing your sentence to manslaughter and 3 years. of which you already served so you're free to go''

the thing that bothers me is how realistic this is. 3 years for manslaughter? that's an extremely small amount of jail time considering you get 3 years for GBH and that's without killing anyone :huh:
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abzug
Sep 25 2006, 02:27 PM
I just thought it was notable that the DVD user interface uses only a few motifs (the prison hallway, the prison cell, a guard's shadow and lightning/thunder/rain), and this lightning/thunder/rain thing is one of them.  It lends some symbolic significance to the pathetically fallacious ;) moments in the episodes, I would say (in case anyone might still think they're random and/or not meaningful).

Sweet. I don't know that we did exhaust the PF subthread, after chat about weather I think it got (rightly) reabsorbed into the thread proper, but I appreciate the bump &, more, your insight. Now if I could jussst get your feedback on intertitles we could mix & match subtext. ;)

Helen&Nikki4ever, I don't think 3 years would be an unusual amount of time to serve in the US, esp with jail overcrowding & so forth.


ETA: Abzug: where would you go with the effed-up menuing system for S5? It wasn't a bad idea but the execution of all those submenus was amateurish at best & very slow. I think it was S5--the cctv-camera-theme, right? Anyway, we've moved indoors into a closed system. Looked at from that pov--and in light of developments in later series--I'm not sure I see it as a very useful metaphor for what the show's trying to say so much as what the menuing system inadvertently says about the show.
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