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| What Is Nikki Saying; In the art room | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 19 2006, 01:24 PM (2,779 Views) | |
| critter | Jul 21 2006, 02:57 AM Post #16 |
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And I have to keep in mind that she is living in a prison and is exposed to very rough language 24-7 and becomes a part of that environment. Remember when she is talking to Claire she says the word "pig" when discusssing the guy she killed but quickly realizes it is a bit of a hard word. She probably hears "pig" all the time or screw at the very least and thoses phrases and the prison "language" becomes part of her whether she realizes it or not. If she had never lived in a prison one wonders if she would have been alot softer. And probably once out of the prison, she will revert back(although not completely) to her old ways of speech and behavior. One other thing that Nikki does that took me off guard was when she grabbed Helen's hand and put it on her breast. I have never seen that action in any American movie or tv show to express romantic/sexual interest. We see Shell do it to Fenner but there it seems much more tawdry. I wonder if this is a more common action in Britain. Of course, Nikki is trying to shock Helen in a way into getting a clue but to me putting Helen's hand on her own breast is a little over the top and not something I would expect from Nikki. Of course, I don't think I would have wanted their first kiss then, either. So what would have been the best way to have Nikki show her true intentions to Helen so that there would be no doubt yet it was not caveman like?;) A hug would have been awkward (btw, I wish there had been some hugs in other scenes). Hmmm, maybe if Nikki had put Helen's hand over her heart... don't think that would have been misinterpreted but maybe not had as much shock value as I think the writers were going for. I have confused myself:) |
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| critter | Jul 21 2006, 03:02 AM Post #17 |
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And somehow the whole thread moved and it shows no views or replies yet there are some. Weird. |
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| campgrrls | Jul 21 2006, 07:20 AM Post #18 |
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G2 landing
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Abzug I understand and generally agree with your characterisation of Nikki's feminism. Actually I tend to think there's more than one feminist perspective and none that is THE one that has more status than the others. That's what I was trying to refer to by referring to fans in terms of "some of their feminist perspectives." I've gone off the term "political correctness" partly because it tends to be used by reactionary people to justify prejudices. Also I don't like it because it suggest that for something as diversified as feminism/s there as an orthodox perspective. There was a time in the women's movement in Britain when women used to take the piss out of themselves with jokes about political and ideological correctness - long before it became a mainstream term. Anyway I see myself as a feminist who is comfortable with a range of ways of talking and being feminist. I recall a friend who was a very strong feminist who started a personal campaign to reclaim the word "tart" for women. Her argument was that tarts are basically very sweet and tastey....... and generally something positive. And she wanted a term for a person's lesbian partner that was informal and short. So she would talk about "X's tart." Didn't seem to upset feminists who knew her. I think it's Nikki's use of the phrase "two-faced tart" that upset some fans. I think because they saw it as plain nasty, and maybe some sa it as too unsisterly. Nevertheless, I can see that as fitting with Nikki's character.... just. However, the tongue down the throat comment just jars for me. Just seems too crass for Nikki. Critter, I agree that women in prison would be used to some pretty crass language. However, in my experience "pig" is a common term for police in the UK.... well amongst women I knew. I don't see it as being a word particular to women in prison. OTOH I think grabbing the hand and putting it on one's breast or other bits only occurs between lovers or people as they become lovers and is not a normal way for acquaintances in Britain to behave. I'm not sure tho that Nikki picked up some of the worst of inmate behaviour while inside. The injustices dished out to her in putting her in prison and while there did make her become angry and aggressive tho IMO.... as abzug explained well. I think a real life Nikki could have pushed the boundaries with a real life Helen by some verbal expression of the mutual attraction Nikki perceived. But it's hard to show that visually in a brief scene. |
| Carolyn | |
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| bonniehelen | Jul 21 2006, 09:29 AM Post #19 |
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Personally I did not like the "two faced tart" comment from Nikki.Whether she is in prison or not it is considered a very demeaning phrase. Americans would consider it "trash talk" and is it is usually used by people like Shell! |
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| critter | Jul 21 2006, 02:42 PM Post #20 |
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I agree, Carolyn, that "pig" is a very common term for a cop and probably wasn't a good example on my part. I was thinking that any close-knit community, especially one that is isolated, establishes a sub-culture complete with it's own phrases,etc that one wouldn't normally encounter on the outside, ie mainstream. I liked it when Nikki is explaining the prison system and the monetary system to Monica when she first meets her. Newbies do have to acclomate themselves or be total outsiders and we know from what happened to Rachel that not opening up and becoming a part of a group doesn't work,either. Anyway, I agree with what you are saying in that Nikki does "push the boundaries", it is part of her character/essence and part of her attraction. There are just a few examples of things she says and does that takes me out of the story every time. "Tongue down my throat", "two-faced tart" or hand on her breast, doesn't seem like something she would do or say. And the only way I can explain her behavior for my own peace of mind is that she is around an environment that is more crass and therefore it doesn't seem so out there. AND like you said, she is constantly fighting injustice for herself and others around her so she does tend to become more aggressive and even hostile when that happens or she totally clams up all together. Wonder why they deleted that scene where Helen is telling Karen that Nikki does have to fight injustice in the system and that accounts for alot of her behavior?...I think that would have been a great scene to have saved. When she was forced to save Trisha and then later talks to the corrupt, prejudice police, she says things that definitely wouldn't help her case in any circumstances so we see that aggressive side because of the injustice. When she is thrown down the block after Fenner trashes her cell, she is first willing to explain what happened to Helen but sees she is getting no where and therefore her hostile attitude springs to action. I think when anyone is misunderstood it is hard to take but when you combine that with the possibility of losing your freedom and losing the trust of someone you love, that has to be almost impossible to handle. So, really she did practice quite a bit of restraint all those times:) |
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| abzug | Jul 21 2006, 02:57 PM Post #21 |
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In love with a prisoner
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I've always felt like the character of Nikki is pretty consistent--she always has the potential to behave in an anti-social way, like in all the examples you mention, critter. She's not anti-social in general, but is impulsive and (over)reactive, particularly when her buttons are being pushed. I mean, we're talking about someone who killed a cop and then told the police she didn't regret it. I think if we talk about Nikki and try to ignore these moments when she's ugly then we are missing the point about the character. To me, Nikki represents how imperfect we all are as human beings, how we all have great potential to be ugly and great potential to be beautiful, and how even in the many occasions when we let the ugliness shine through, it doesn't (or shouldn't) undermine the beauty. In the case of Nikki, we want to ignore the ugliness so we can love the character, but in my mind, its our ability to love the kind of character who can behave in such an ugly way that makes watching the show so powerful. |
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| munky | Jul 21 2006, 05:23 PM Post #22 |
Out of Dorm
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campgrrls, agree with everything you said above. but particularly with . I wouldn't know about not being feminist, but I do know that it doesn't go with Nikki. I'm not being wishful thinking here nor am I idolising Nikki, just that it doesn't go with how Nikki is overall. Nikki is not a rude character, she's not some vicky pollard. She couldn't be even if she tried. We all get pissed off sometimes, we all use strong words but there are strong words and then there are strong words. And Nikki is not the person that can be crass and ruffian like that with the woman she loves. It does not happen. The same way that Shell, even when most in love, will still be common as muck. I hear girls like Shell talk about their boyfriends and with their boyfriends all the time. They're still common as muck and rough, even when declarating their love. Even shag is too smooth a word, give it hard to me is more appropriate in this world. They're entitled to that language the same way that hip-hop artist are entitled to theirs. Just that Nikki isn't one of them and would never use their language with the woman she loves. I will accept that they had to use a powerful phrase because the moment was brief, but I still think they could have picked a different one. And I have a feeling that Shed have agonised over this one. This is a discussion on the finer points of Shed's scripting, not on Nikki as a character. |
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| Jeanna | Jul 21 2006, 11:34 PM Post #23 |
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I said SIT IN THAT CHAIR
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I completely agree with Abzug here. This is why I was so struck with this series from the beginning. I saw very recognizable flawed human beings. Even Helen when we first meet her--the mascara mishap which she can then laugh about when she catches a glimpse of herself in the mirror--we know this is not a perfect person, but someone we are probably going to like. I even gave Jim Fenner the benefit of the doubt at first, is he being fatherly...or creepy? Nikki is pure impulse. She would say and do things, depending upon the emotional stress under which she finds herself, to shock and provoke. I don't think they're out of character at all. And it's a shining glory (among many) of this series and the performances that I could find something to like in every character (and to dislike as well) no matter how despicably they behave. |
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H&N Music Vid by me and ekny Something To Talk About YouTube My BG Music Vids On YouTube My vids You Tube removed Click Here OR HERE BAM for Beginners BAM Channel | |
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| critter | Jul 21 2006, 11:35 PM Post #24 |
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Oh, I totally agree that Nikki can be impulsive and anti-social and when threatened by injustice, either personally or just on principal, won't just sit and take it. And as we know, she will go to the extreme sometimes not even thinking of the consequences til it is too late. When Nikki is down the block and Karen is talking to her and getting to know her...ha, what a first impression...Nikki is being very "ugly". But I think it is justified and quite in character. Even when Helen comes down to the cell and Nikki is still very upset and her face shows anger and contempt at the world, it is still justified because she is being misunderstood by everyone that controls her life and also even by Helen who controls her heart. Now who wouldn't be upset!?
See, that is what I am saying...I just get taken out of the story because of a few lines that seem out of place. It's not that I can't envision the character, Nikki, being angry enough to say them it's just that they are odd comments ie not the words I would have chosen to get my points across. |
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| mlbach | Sep 6 2010, 01:59 AM Post #25 |
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Keys for the handcuffs!
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Hi, I'm a newbie, but for what it's worth, I wasn't upset when Nikki told Helen to just stick her tongue down Nikki's throat. It would have been entirely different if Nikki had said, I want to stick MY tongue down YOUR throat. I look at it as being similar to the situation in the potting shed, when Nikki grabbed Helen's hand and placed it on her own breast, which I did not find offensive either, although others apparently have. I would have found it offensive if Nikki had placed her own hand on Helen's breast or tried to kiss her, but she was putting Helen in the position of the aggressor--the more traditionally "male" role. If Helen hadn't been secretly hot for Nikki (even from herself) she wouldn't have reacted so violently to the hand on breast thing. Likewise, if she weren't struggling so hard against her emotions, she wouldn't have been so bent out of shape by Nikki suggesting that she stick her tongue down Nikki's throat. I think Helen was afraid she might actually do it, or something even more inappropriate, which is why she had to resign. I also take a cue from the deleted scene of series 2 episode 13 where Helen basically rips Nikki's clothes off, pushes her onto the couch, straddles her and moans, "I want ya. Now. Oh, God." Our girl Helen is a top. (Love it when you're bossy!) Nikki seems to have sensed this from the beginning, and tried to guide Helen towards her natural inclinations. Sorry if I am posting prematurely. |
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| Lisa289 | Sep 6 2010, 09:22 PM Post #26 |
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Welsh Bad Girl
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Welcome to the debate mlbach!! I agree with you - I think what annoys Nikki more than anything is that Helen does not admit her own feelings. Nikki has to push her into it instead. |
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| mlbach | Sep 7 2010, 02:21 AM Post #27 |
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Keys for the handcuffs!
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And thank god she did. You have to wonder what Helen's life would have been like if Nikki hadn't come along--if she'd settled for Sean. They saved each other's lives. I really like your--signature?--picture btw. |
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| Lisa289 | Sep 7 2010, 11:15 AM Post #28 |
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Welsh Bad Girl
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Yeah, thank god for Nikki!! Thanks, I had it made for me by another member. |
![]() I'm Not Just Perfect - I'm Welsh | |
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2:07 PM Jul 11