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When did Nikki know...?
Topic Started: Jan 29 2007, 08:52 PM (4,289 Views)
abzug
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In love with a prisoner
Helen went through a few distinct steps on acknowledging/verbalizing her feelings:
1. S1E10--She tells Sean Nikki is in love with her, and then later tells Sean she's not in love with him.
2. S2E1--She tells Nikki that Nikki means something to her
3. S2E2--She tells Nikki she's been sexually interested in her ("I'm guilty of the same offense...which means I can do this")
4. S2E6--She tells Nikki she's missed her (this moment, in the visiting scene, is incredibly emotionally powerful, because it's really the first open statement of feeling from Helen towards Nikki)
5. S2E12--She tells Dominic she's in love with Nikki
6. S2E13--She tells Nikki she's in love with Nikki

I'm outlining that because I think it clarifies some of Helen's steps. I do think it's interesting that in the visiting room Helen chooses to say to Nikki that she's missed her, rather than a bigger statement. It's almost akin to when you're dating someone, it's still kind of new, and you're thinking to yourself "I'm falling in love with her. I really think I love her." But you're not ready to actually SAY that to the object of your affection, so you say something else, something like "I've missed you Nikki" but with passion burning in your eyes.
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popstalin
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abzug
May 2 2007, 06:46 PM
5. S2E12--She tells Dominic she's in love with Nikki
6. S2E13--She tells Nikki she's in love with Nikki

I always thought it was a major kick in the pants for Nikki to hear Helen loves her from Dom before we get to hear it with her in S2e13. Of course, we never really know what Helen wrote in her letters or what Nikki wrote in hers to Helen when Helen declares she feels exactly the same way.

Nice outline azbug!

I still contend that Helen knew she loved Nikki before leaving Larkhall otherwise why leave a career she was so passionate about, especially she being the careerist she is. :)
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microsofty
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popstalin
May 2 2007, 09:06 PM
I still contend that Helen knew she loved Nikki before leaving Larkhall otherwise why leave a career she was so passionate about, especially she being the careerist she is. :)

Oooo, but this statement opens up a whole new debate! Why did Helen resign? Was it because she was fed up with fighting the system or was it because of her feelings for Nikki? She certainly gave Stubberfield an earful, which had nothing to do with Nikki. Did she plan to resign, or did it happen in the heat of the moment? I don't think Helen's actual resignation had anything to do with her feelings for Nikki, it just provided her with the opportunity to be with Nikki in freeing her from the constraints (in Helen's mind, at least) that kept them apart.
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popstalin
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microsofty
May 2 2007, 07:26 PM
Oooo, but this statement opens up a whole new debate! Why did Helen resign? Was it because she was fed up with fighting the system or was it because of her feelings for Nikki? She certainly gave Stubberfield an earful, which had nothing to do with Nikki. Did she plan to resign, or did it happen in the heat of the moment? I don't think Helen's actual resignation had anything to do with her feelings for Nikki, it just provided her with the opportunity to be with Nikki in freeing her from the constraints (in Helen's mind, at least) that kept them apart.

Well, I'm sure she was fed up with the system and the "Old Boys Network" but I think the outburst with Simon happened in the heat of the moment. I also think that part of her decision to leave had to do with Nikki, why else do we get the speech before the kiss?
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Cassandra
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popstalin
May 2 2007, 09:55 PM
Well, I'm sure she was fed up with the system and the "Old Boys Network" but I think the outburst with Simon happened in the heat of the moment. I also think that part of her decision to leave had to do with Nikki, why else do we get the speech before the kiss?
I agree. Stubberfield reluctantly agrees to suspend Fenner because she gives him an ultimatum, "Either he goes or I go!" I think she loses her temper when she realises it is the only reason that he is suspending Fenner and how futile her position is. And in the heat of the moment, decides to resign. "Well I don't like it! I don't like it one bit!!" But I think if Nikki hadn't been in the back of her mind then she would have stayed and fought on. Helen was not a quitter.

But now I'm back to having a problem with the "Shit Happens" line. I think Helen went to say a final goodbye to Nikki. I now agree that Helen realised she loved Nikki, even if she couldn't (and wouldn't) put it into words. After kissing her, surely she could have found a better expression to leave with? I realise there are no words in such a situation but Helen didn't even try to console Nikki.
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Xenaclark
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I think she left because of her feelings for Nikki. When she said that she let her feelings cloud her judgement, I think that meant that she was too emotionally involved and could not do her job to the best of her ability. I also think that was why she shipped Nikki out because she could not do her job and continue to be protective of her.

And it is obvious that Helen wants Nikki because she said that she was "Guilty if thought if not in deed" so this means that she had thought about doing what Jim had done to the others.

Whopse...sorry mind went to where Helens thoughts were.

I just have one question. What did Helen mean by "You just don't get it do you?", after Nikki said to stick her... well you know the line.

I meant that to be as Nikki was right in what Helen was feeling but she didn't respect her job and her professionalism to not cross the line...

This also leads me to ask about S2 Ep7 when Helen and Nikki are talking in the library after the snogging session where Nikki states that she does not want to get in the way of her career, but it seems like in s2ep1 where Nikki and Helen are talking after Helens return Nikki accused Helen of caring about her carrer more. Is that not a contradiction, or is it just me?

Nicki (Xenaclark)

Helen – “Don’t make this any harder for me!”
Nikki – “Yeah must be hard getting angry with someone you’ve snogged.”
Helen – “Oh please Nikki, be serious!”
Nikki – “I want to make love to you all night long…is that serious enough?”
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popstalin
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Cassandra
May 2 2007, 09:39 PM
But now I'm back to having a problem with the "Shit Happens" line. I think Helen went to say a final goodbye to Nikki. I now agree that Helen realised she loved Nikki, even if she couldn't (and wouldn't) put it into words. After kissing her, surely she could have found a better expression to leave with? I realise there are no words in such a situation but Helen didn't even try to console Nikki.


I'm thinking I'm about the only one on this board who doesn't have a problem with the "Shit happens" line. :) When faced with seemingly insurmountable odds, I think "Shit happens" is the best choice. I truly believe this phrase was used to spare Nikki's feelings.

Think of it this way, Helen wasn't sure at that moment in time if she and Nikki would ever communicate again, let alone see one another. Why would you tell someone who already has little or no hope of happiness in prison, "Hey, I'm leaving, I'll probably never see you again and by the way, I really, really love you!" Better to say something as honest as "shit happens" because it does—life isn't always fair and I think that was the point Helen (the writer's) was trying to make.

Xenaclark
May 2 2007, 10:51 PM

I just have one question. What did Helen mean by "You just don't get it do you?", after Nikki said to stick her... well you know the line.


I think Helen meant that Nikki didn't get that she couldn't act on her feelings because of the whole being equal thing. I think it also meant that "Yes, I have feelings for you but I can't go breakin' my rules but what you're doing right now is killing me because I have to punish someone I love (and yes, her thought was a run-on sentence too)."

As far as Nikki's concern that Helen was putting her job ahead of Nikki in the beginning of S2, Nikki, was pushing Helen to admit her feelings for her. Once Nikki "got" Helen, it became about protecting her, not pushing her.
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microsofty
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Xenaclark
May 3 2007, 12:51 AM
This also leads me to ask about S2 Ep7 when Helen and Nikki are talking in the library after the snogging session where Nikki states that she does not want to get in the way of her career, but it seems like in s2ep1 where Nikki and Helen are talking after Helens return Nikki accused Helen of caring about her carrer more. Is that not a contradiction, or is it just me?

Hi Xenaclark

Your question has been discussed in the S2E1 thread, if you want to have a look. It starts somewhere in the middle of the thread.
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Xenaclark
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Thanks for that because I hav always wondered that.
Nicki (Xenaclark)

Helen – “Don’t make this any harder for me!”
Nikki – “Yeah must be hard getting angry with someone you’ve snogged.”
Helen – “Oh please Nikki, be serious!”
Nikki – “I want to make love to you all night long…is that serious enough?”
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Route66
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Hi, when do you think Helen knew she was attracted to Nikki?

-----------------
"I used to be a flirt, but it got me into too much trouble, so now I tell the gays I'm straight, the straights I'm gay, and the bisexuals I have herpes. Makes life much easier that way." -- Me
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abzug
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Hey, we're actually discussing this here:
http://z4.invisionfree.com/Nikki_and_Helen...?showtopic=1020
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Washuai
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Gomen, I thought I had seen a similar discussion. I see why I forgot where it was, since it's in Nikki's section.

That thread opted to define it as "definition of 'know': is fully "aware" of these feelings & names them Love"

I had been about to ask what the definition of "know" was for this one. Although, as I remember more forms of "know" than just the one proposed were being discussed.
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popstalin
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I think she became aware of it in S1e6, "A Big Mistake," or as I like to refer to it as the "Helen Gets Her Flirt On."

The flirt list:

  • Garden flirting:
    The flirting starts in the garden when Helen and Nikki talk about flat-pack furniture and Sophie's World.
  • Office flirting:
    Helen and Nikki flirt about the Open University
  • Lunch room flirting:
    Helen comes to Jessie Devlin's rescue and there is a flirtatious smile shared between Helen and Nikki
  • Dom flirting:
    Helen just can't seem to stop her flirting once she gets started... she flirts with Dom to get him to reconsider his resignation. (I know this doesn't have anything to do with H & N but I'm showing a pattern here)
  • Cell flirting:
    Not only is there flirting in Nikki's cell when Helen delivers the prospectus but she also checks out Nikki's tush when she enters the cell. She does that cute lower-lip bitey thing too when she tells Nikki that she thought she'd forget about the book.
  • Library flirting/I'm attracted to Nikki Wade:
    Finally, the scene that I think shows the audience that Helen has realized her attraction for Nikki—the library scene. More flirting happens here as well but when Helen starts talking to Nikki about never having been into men, she gives this look that says, "Wow, this is a beautiful woman and I think I may be attracted to her." At least that's how I read it.


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Xenaclark
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Quote:
 
"A Big Mistake," or as I like to refer to it as the "Helen Gets Her Flirt On."
:rofl

That was so funny.

I know this is being discussed on the other boards and I thought I posted but honestly I cant say.

There is such a time change and days and weeks go by that we do not see that I find it really hard to see the relazation in a look or saying.

But looking at is logically to say attracted is totally different then in love and I think thats what the other post is about.

but for me the attraction was instantanious. Well minus the red lipstick.
Nicki (Xenaclark)

Helen – “Don’t make this any harder for me!”
Nikki – “Yeah must be hard getting angry with someone you’ve snogged.”
Helen – “Oh please Nikki, be serious!”
Nikki – “I want to make love to you all night long…is that serious enough?”
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Washuai
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Popstalin, I think that is good evidence that Helen is attracted to Nikki, but I'm not sure it really shows that Helen is consciously aware that she herself is attracted to Nikki.

She'd have to be aware that she was flirting and whether or not she thought it means anything. Flirting doesn't always mean attraction, sometimes it's just fun, manipulation or a bit of an ego boost. Which is to say Helen's flirting might have more to do with the reaction she gets out of the people that she flirts with and that it feels good, more than she is consciously aware of wanting something more than flirting.

Pointing out that she flirts with Dominic, I think reinforces this. She's not flirting because she's acknowledging her attraction consciously to Nikki or Dom. She's flirting, because it is just something that's a part of who she is and how she feels without thinking about it.

---edit---
Quote:
 
but for me the attraction was instantanious. Well minus the red lipstick.

I agree, I think they were attracted from episode 1. That doesn't mean I think Helen was conscious of it. Even when she stayed in the room, while Nikki got dressed, lol.
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