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Daphne - BBC2 Saturday 12th May 2007; Lesbian content drama with Janet McTeer
Topic Started: May 12 2007, 10:09 AM (2,282 Views)
solitasolano
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Minutes and counting.
Ooh I love the Kathryn Flett article. I think she liked the movie wouldn't you say...even the suspect post coital all clothes and hair in prefect place description lol.

Couldn't find a Ellen Doubleday, but here's an early Gertie.
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abzug
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solitasolano
Jul 16 2007, 01:00 AM
Couldn't find a Ellen Doubleday, but here's an early Gertie.
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Who wouldn't want to sleep with her? And as played by Janet McTeer--soooooooooooooooo sexy.
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solitasolano
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Yes, totally inspired casting of Janet McTeer. Below is a pic of an older Gertie. I figure there was 19 yrs diff between G and D. Still can't find an Ellen Doubleday image.

Logo aired the movie with only one 6 minute commercial break halfway through...don't know what was cut out, but we lost 6 minutes. Also this tv mix was (a new master is done for tv and whenever there are edits,..this goes now too for ALL dvd versions of movies done now, the sound track is remastered) disconcerting because the music was way too hot, it overwhelmed some of the dialog I would have wanted to hear, after all the movie is a drama. That being said, I thoroughly enjoyed it. I like films where girls are into girls within the context of the hetero world (or hetero hegemony I guess as abzug refers to). Du Mauier was presented not so much as repressed to her same sex attractions, but sympathetic as she doesn't have the social tools or upbringing to embrace her same sex attractions. Really nicely directed by Clare Beavan, although writer Amy Jenkins gets most of the press. I hope we can see more in the future from Beavan. She's done mostly tv, a documentary in 1993 called The Gay Rock and Roll Years, and found a listing for 1995 Outfest (LA) for Audience Award for best nonfiction video, Suddenly Las Summer.

I thought Geraldine Somerville was exquisite as Daphne: quiet, pouting, brooding, but always right there with something profound to say. I like how the screenplay didn't demonize her marriage in the light of the time, in fact the implication is her marriage served her writing well, especially, Rebecca. The Daphne/Ellen relationship was painful at times...told from Daphne's POV she never got what she wanted, but I never saw that Ellen lead her on. Love and friendship yes, but Doubleday makes is VERY clear early on there would be no touching and kissing. "Consternation" was the word the two finally decided on to explain their relationship: "amazement or dismay that hinders or throws into confusion." Expectations never realized.

I loved too the film's capture of the time (1940's): the hair styles; the clothes; and that wonderful imitation score of an old B&W film, more specifically of Franz Waxman who did the score for Rebecca in 1942. Plus there's that "hokey" Hitchcockian rear projection that Kathryn Flett referred to...but in 1942 that wasn't hokey, that was state of the art.

Abzug, I really like what you had to say of the film after your recent viewing. I can't add a better analysis than that...plus again that Kathryn Flett review was a hoot and right on. Abzug, I'm assumming the copy you have you got from someone in who recorded it in England, right?

Forgot that Gertrude Lawrence was British also.
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orlando
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This thread is absolutely killing me.

If anyone sees a torrent lying around somewhere pleeease give me a shout!
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solitasolano
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orlando and others who may be interested:
LOGO is showing Daphne 3 more times.
Today, Monday July 16 at 3pm
Sat July 27 at 11:30 am
and Sun July 28 at 3am.
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orlando
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Thank you, solitasolano. Unfortunately I live in Scandinavia, so no logo for me I'm afraid. Looks like I'll just have to be patient and wait for the DVD release, hard as it may be!
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abzug
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solitasolano
Jul 16 2007, 01:54 PM
Logo aired the movie with only one 6 minute commercial break halfway through...don't know what was cut out, but we lost 6 minutes.

What a relief! Thank god they have some sense of art--had they butchered it by cutting 25 minutes and inserting a commercial break every 12 minutes, I would have been upset.

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Also this tv mix was (a new master is done for tv and whenever there are edits,..this goes now too for ALL dvd versions of movies done now, the sound track is remastered) disconcerting because the music was way too hot, it overwhelmed some of the dialog I would have wanted to hear, after all the movie is a drama.

This was true in the version I watched as well (which was recorded from BBC2)--I thought it was a stylistic choice, part of the 1940s/50s homage, where the scores were very aggressive and loud. I actually laughed at the first two music queues because they sounded so ridiculous, and then I realized what they were doing. I found the second time I watched the film, I heard the dialogue much better than the first time through.

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Du Mauier was presented not so much as repressed to her same sex attractions, but sympathetic as she doesn't have the social tools or upbringing to embrace her same sex attractions. [...] The Daphne/Ellen relationship was painful at times...told from Daphne's POV she never got what she wanted, but I never saw that Ellen lead her on.  Love and friendship yes, but Doubleday makes is VERY clear early on there would be no touching and kissing.

OK, but, in terms of Daphne's repression, didn't you think her ongoing obsession with Ellen was actually a symptom of her attempt to repress her sexual desire for women? I mean, had she been accepting of her own desires, she would have let herself indulge them--she would have fallen for Gertie and said "Screw you Ellen Doubleday!" But instead she stayed hung up on someone who was clearly unavailable, who didn't lead her on (as you point out). And an impossible crush is the best way to avoid actually being in a relationship. So to me the whole Ellen thing was Daphne's avoidance/repression technique.

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Really nicely directed by Clare Beavan

I couldn't agree more. I actually felt like she was a filmmaker, not just a storyteller. There aren't many lesbian directors I would describe that way.

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in fact the implication is her marriage served her writing well, especially, Rebecca.

This is such an interesting issue. Does the artist have to be miserable in order to have something to say as an artist? In a way, one could argue that this film is all about what drives an artist to create art: unrequited love, miserable marriage etc. And in a way, as much as I sat watching and desperately wanting Daphne to find romantic fulfillment, the point seems to be that romantic fulfillment wasn't in the cards for her, and because of that, professional fulfillment and success was what she got. And perhaps that's what she got because it's what she preferred.
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solitasolano
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abzug
Jul 16 2007, 11:10 AM
...didn't you think her ongoing obsession with Ellen was actually a symptom of her attempt to repress her sexual desire for women?  I mean, had she been accepting of her own desires, she would have let herself indulge them--she would have fallen for Gertie and said "Screw you Ellen Doubleday!"  But instead she stayed hung up on someone who was clearly unavailable, who didn't lead her on (as you point out).  And an impossible crush is the best way to avoid actually being in a relationship.  So to me the whole Ellen thing was Daphne's avoidance/repression technique.

I don't know. I think obsession and repression of one's sexuality can be two separate conditions and not necessarily causative of each other or the whole. Du Maurier could have been a "practicing" lesbian and still have obsessive tendencies. I do see where you are going with this point. Actually we could consider a third condition in this dynamic, that being du Maurier did not feel deserving of being loved (a cold mother and a demanding father who said he'd rather she was a boy ie she wasn't good enough as she was). Even if du Maurier embraced her lesbianism, she night not have been capable of a loving partnership in her life, obsession nothwithstanding. As you say, an impossible crush is a good way to avoid actually being in a relationship.

Here's another thought about her repression and dysfunction in addition to the above, du Maurier did not identify as lesbian. She didn't like those "L people". She didn't identify as a lesbian and is represented as being even homophobic. That could explain alot too. If she didn't identify as lesbian, she's not going to pursue such a relationship. The movie is clear that Gertie was the chaser and not the other way around. Du Maurier was explicit she would act on her "desire" for Doubleday, but since it takes two, that wasn't going to happen. So in the end, we have come up with 4 dynamics which impeded du Maurier's experience of a meaningful love (including physical intimacy) relationship. That's alot of cards stacked against her....which leads us to the next consideration...making art.

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Does the artist have to be miserable in order to have something to say as an artist? 
Boy isn't this a closed loop of an endless question. Not being in touch with the muse myself...I wouldn't know for sure...Du Maurier was from a creative family, theater was the family business so to speak. She was going to write anyways, happy or not. That being said, I don't have a clue if her work would not had met with such critical acclaim if she was "happy". The movie makes a point of informing us that du Maurier never remembers her mother touching her. She's not portrayed as a particularly cold unfeeling mother. But is portrayed as a writer who wasn't exactly cuddly with her children. I don't feel the movie was so much about what drove du Maurier to do art as a story on one part of her life, that would be her repressed sexuality and obsession with Doubleday.
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, the point seems to be that romantic fulfillment wasn't in the cards for her, and because of that, professional fulfillment and success was what she got.  And perhaps that's what she got because it's what she preferred.
Humm, I'll have to think about that somemore. Yours is a specific conclusion. I don't know if I have enough information or have thought about du Maurier to agree or counter. I'll give it some thought.
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solitasolano
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the point seems to be that romantic fulfillment wasn't in the cards for her, and because of that, professional fulfillment and success was what she got.  And perhaps that's what she got because it's what she preferred.

I rather caught the show a second time on LOGO and this time knew where to listen for dialog I missed before...made a difference. On first viewing if I can't hear I'm appreciating the visuals...Now that I know what some of the dialog was, I would agree with your conclusion here, abzug.

First time around I missed the whole exchange between Daphne and Ellen early in the film. Daphne and kids have arrived at the Doubleday estate, the kids and Mr are playing cowboy and Indian, the music is quite loud... Ellen and Daphne are talking about Rebecca (it's always Rebecca). Daphne says its about marriage; about jealousy in a marriage; 'that;s what there is between men and women. "Nothing is so degrading as a marriage that has failed." Even with all her success and subsequent financial independence, Daphne stayed in her failed marriage. Latter in the film, Gertrude visits the family in Cornwall. Walking along the beach she asks Daphne, "Are you terribly unhappy?" "I've been blundering and hopeless," the reply.

Daphne pursues and unrequitted love. Ellen is always clear she could not love Daphne "that way". Daphne is still complused to pine after Ellen. When they go to Florence together Daphne impores Ellen to "try loving someone (Daphne) who's been in bond ever since you met them." In voice over Daphne explains it like this, "It's a strange feeling, not to have loved and lost, but rather a love one has never known." Nope, no romantic fulfillment for Daphne.

I like Daphne's metaphor for herself which reoccurs throughout the movie...she's the boy, the boy in the box. "I tried to push that boy back in the box." About "September Tide", the play Daphne wrote about Ellen, Gerturde tells Daphne, "Oh you're not Mother. I know you're the boy." It's like that was the only way Daphne could define or think of her sexuality. Repressed for sure, pushing that boy back into the box.

Think I would have to read the biography this script was based on to make more definitive conclusions to what motivated Daphne, love or work. But I agree, romantic fulfillment was not to be in the cards.

Couple of other general comments on the film:
I love the use of the giant breaking waves as transistion and mood shots. Here in California the sun is always shining at the beach, but oh, not in Cornwall. Those were some grey grey waves. Plus the slight overcranking in filming slightly slows down the motion of the waves rolling in and breaking almost as if repressed themselves.

Love the toe nail painting then followed by the only lovemaking scene in the movie. Me and the mrs always joke how often in films something like women washing each others hair (My Two Loves) is code for the ladies are about to do the nasty. Now we can add painting your toenails.

Lastly, those were some 10 gallon martinis they served up...gin of course.

Those who want can stil catch "Daphne" this comng Sat afternoon. Worth a view for sure.
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abzug
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solitasolano
 
When they go to Florence together Daphne impores Ellen to "try loving someone (Daphne) who's been in bond ever since you met them." In voice over Daphne explains it like this, "It's a strange feeling, not to have loved and lost, but rather a love one has never known." Nope, no romantic fulfillment for Daphne.

This is really interesting! I interpreted this line differently: I thought "someone" referred to Ellen, that Ellen was the one in bond, not available to Daphne. But of course the dual meaning is there, because Daphne is also in bond, from the perspective of those who love her (Gertrude, her husband, even her children).

solitasolano
 
I like Daphne's metaphor for herself which reoccurs throughout the movie...she's the boy, the boy in the box. "I tried to push that boy back in the box." About "September Tide", the play Daphne wrote about Ellen, Gerturde tells Daphne, "Oh you're not Mother. I know you're the boy." It's like that was the only way Daphne could define or think of her sexuality.

I liked this too, and it felt very culturally accurate, if that makes sense. It was also fascinating to see Daphne as an adult woman (around 40) but interacting with women older than her by about 10 years, such that even at age 40, she's still playing this boyish role. There's a bit of knightliness about her, courting the lady of her patron.

solitasolano
 
I love the use of the giant breaking waves as transistion and mood shots. Here in California the sun is always shining at the beach, but oh, not in Cornwall. Those were some grey grey waves. Plus the slight overcranking in filming slightly slows down the motion of the waves rolling in and breaking almost as if repressed themselves.

This is so great! Because it was apparent to me that the waves represented sexual desire/lust, but I hadn't woven in the greyness or the slowness of the waves, but that makes them the perfect image for Daphne and her feelings for women.
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solitasolano
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I just looked up Margaret Forster and the name of her du Maurier biography so I could check out if the library has i(Daphne du Maurier is the name)...saw that the bio was written in 1994! Really makes me wonder how emphatic Forster is about an actual physical venetian affair between du Maurier and Lawrence written over 10 years ago...also didn't know that Forster wrote "Georgy Girl". As I recall that was quite a popular movie in it's day.
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abzug
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I haven't read the biography, but from what I remember of what I read about the biography, she's the one who put the idea out there, and not just as a theory, but as a definitive conclusion from her sources. As much as these things can be definitive I guess. I may have to add the bio to my reading list. :)
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It's up on Demonoid! :D

http://www.demonoid.com/files/download/HTTP/1304781/1483088
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abzug
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I'm in the middle of the Forster biography right now, and the film is definitely very closely based on this book. It's fascinating to read the post-war section of the biography to see how they took this raw material and dramatized it so effectively. A biographer by necessity has to invent things, and then the film takes that a few steps further, although still quite faithful to the source material.

However, there is one very striking difference between the biography and the film, in how each depicts the conclusion of Daphne's affair with Gertrude Lawrence. In the film, Daphne has a bit of 'Buddy's Blues'* and chooses the unavailable Ellen over the available Gertrude, only to regret her decision later. It's one of the most painful scenes in the film. In the biography, Daphne and Gertrude continue their relationship until Gertrude's death, and there's a simultaneous cooling of Daphne's passion for Ellen during this period. So the biography sees Daphne as much more 'functional' (for lack of a better word) in her love-life than the film does.

I think, more importantly, that the film reflects an obsession among present-day gay peolpe with showing the negative side of repression and self-loathing for gay people. So Daphne, with her hatred of the 'L People' couldn't have a fulfilled romantic relationship with a woman--since she's self-loathing she had to self-sabotage. But there's no evidence in the biography that she DID sabotage the relationship in this way--it was purely an invention of the writer and director, to up the dramatic ante, I guess.

But couldn't the tragic ending just have been the death of Gertrude, and the loss for Daphne of her one chance at true love? It almost feels like an agenda on the part of modern-day writers. Well, maybe agenda is too strong a word, but there's something about the way that most gay stories these days rely on certain cliches, and the 'closet' and how harmful it is--that's one of the most common. To the point that writers actually impose this narrative even where it doesn't belong. I mean, imagine a film about lesbians in the 1950s where they lived married lives and had wonderful long-term affairs with women. It's tough to imagine such a thing, but I'm sure it existed, and it seems like Daphne du Maurier was one of the people who experienced something like this. Instead, all the films and television shows tell a story something like this:
gay-in-closet = bad, tragic ending
gay-and-out = good, happy ending
(That's of course excluding the movies where the lesbian is a murderer and then commits suicide. ;) )


*Sorry, musical theatre reference there. There's a song in the musical Follies called 'Buddy's Blues' and the first line of the song is "I've got those god-why-don't-you-love-me? Oh-you-do-I'll-see-you-later blues."
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Jeanna
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Fascinating. As always. Bless you and your Sondheim refs. <G>

Oh, I've seen the film now. I downloaded it from Sounder's site finally and your assessment in comparison with the bio (which I've been looking for at the library) is very very interesting.

And just on a nostalgic side-note side of things, it was 'nice' <G> to see McTeer back in bed with another woman...on screen. ;)

Did you see her recently on Masterpiece Theater again in "The Amazing Mrs. Pritchard" as the chancellor of the exchequer...she was FABulous, darling.
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