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Otalia - Guiding Light
Topic Started: Mar 29 2009, 06:54 PM (21,277 Views)
abzug
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In love with a prisoner
cagey
 
"neckline" abzug? sure.

Omigod. Do you think this means I'm a lesbian? :eek

cagey
 
I am very sure that Bill and Lizzie will get there in the next few months, since the actor playing Lizzie has managed to time her pregnancy to the story.

Can we talk future about other storylines? B/c the rumor I heard is that Bizzie goes off on their honeymoon and that's it, they're gone from the show, don't return before it's over. Which is an idea I kinda like, because it leaves them happy, and we don't have to waste time with them anymore. Their incessant wedding planning is REALLY getting on my lesbian nerves!

cagey
 
I did not detect Bad Writing, as in - Other Writers had been assigned the story. Nat is in a very deep hole with no ladder to climb out and this played well.

What did you think of her lame "I guess I repressed it" explanation for why she didn't know she was pregnant? That felt sloppy to me, even as psychological explanation. I can get her repressing her attraction to Olivia for months and months, but a pregnancy? When it isn't her first?

cagey
 
She had to go - and it was not going to be nice. Now I trying to get behind her returning with a little bundle of joy and knocking on Olivia's door at the Beacon. If we are lucky it will be a kitten or a puppy, but even if it has to be a bambina

She CANNOT come back WITH a baby! I mean, seriously, are we supposed to forget everything we've ever learned about pregnancy? If she comes back 4 weeks from now with an infant, I will totally freak. She's "several" months pregnant, not EIGHT!

Jeanna
 
Is it comforting to know that people are still waving the Red Herring flag? I don't know.

I just find the pregnancy red herring idea even more difficult to stomach, now that I've seen the pregnancy testing scenes. I mean, a messed up home test PLUS a screwed up blood test at the hospital? I guess in a soap you can do anything, but still....

ekny
 
And everything about the last few days has been about laying out the groundrules for these new sets of alliances. Liv & Phillip--finally on a similar page. Phillip unconditionally supporting her & her decision. Frank making clear it's not that Olivia's a woman, it's that Olivia's Olivia. And Nat having to deal with the double-barreled attack from Fr Ray & Rafe. Rafe's homophobia is clearly presented as adolescent. Fr Ray is a different argument. Anyway those are all polarizations I see them settings up in order to make this s/l continue to fall into the place they want it to.

Don't forget to include Blake and Doris as pro-Otalia (or is that Protalia?) cheerleaders as well. In fact, prior to the scene with Phillip yesterday, it was all women (Liv, Nat, Blake, Doris) vs all men (Father Ray, Rafe, Frank). Which I kinda liked, because it was so clear the women were going to kick the guys' asses all the way to Chicago.

I haven't said much about today's episode. I love happy Olivia. Love her. Loved the scene with Olivia and Doris, and in a way it kind of explained the show's philosophy about sexuality. Or, more specifically, about not hetero-sexuality. Which is that sex isn't important to finding and knowing you have true love. But openness IS. Which is why Nat and Liv had to come out to the entire fucking world before they could kiss. The hiding is what prevents Doris from finding love, not a fear of sex with a woman, not a belief that sex only comes after marriage etc.
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ekny
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Ok, yeah, today was pretty much a bummer. Cagey, you're right about this being Nat's super-test with gee-oh-dee, but I still burst into gales of laughter at that prayer: pray for us in the hour of our death? Guess she doesn't want the baby either. The (very) perfunctory Iloveyoutoo at the end wasn't happy-making.

Mondo angst & suffering on the way as our girls work those stations of their respective crosses: Olivia's comment about Normal was a new one. And--since when was this 'their first' experience as a 'real family'? Wtf?

Cagey, it's not that I don't agree with your comment about Olivia discussing this like a business deal--at times--but that observation doesn't, perhaps, fully address O's underlying emotions: she's never been perfectly sure about Natalia's commitment for obvious reasons. So (to me) it's like she goes for the most familiar model she has for clarifying interactions. Mainly she's been very upfront: what do you want me to do?--those kinds of questions. Very... clean, in the ways she's tried to address Natalia's needs. But underneath, the stresses that were showing just the other week (and for all the time leading up to this) have been building, so this approach makes a lot of sense, to me, in that people rely on what's familiar when trying to negotiate something new. And negotiation is what Olivia knows, it's a skill--but also a coping skill. I dunno, seems to me sympathy is the order of the day. At least after today it sure is. This is gonna be kinda gruesome.

The only compensation (for me) was Olivia's scene with Doris, which played nicely. And, per Abzug, the superabundance of cleavage throughout this episode. Talk about a genteel sufficiency.
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abzug
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ekny
 
Cagey, it's not that I don't agree with your comment about Olivia discussing this like a business deal--at times--but that observation doesn't, perhaps, fully address O's underlying emotions: ... I dunno, seems to me sympathy is the order of the day.

I am amused! It seems from reading your post that you think describing Olivia's style as negotiating a business deal is a criticism, or in some way not-feeling. It never occurred to me to read the observation that way. Just b/c it's being handled in a negotiative style doesn't mean there aren't emotions driving it. :) (Spoken like a true business woman, no?)

ekny
 
The (very) perfunctory Iloveyoutoo at the end wasn't happy-making.

I didn't find it perfunctory. The tears, to me, indicated a surfeit of emotion, emotion which Nat found herself completely ill-equipped to deal with. She couldn't respond to Olivia's joy and openness, because she wasn't feeling joyful or open. But I didn't get the sense that she didn't mean the "I love you"--just that other emotions were breaking through in a really big way.

I have horrible insomnia right now, and have to get up in 5 1/2 hours. And I think part of what's keeping me up is this silly show! I've got Otalia on my mind, and it's driving me a bit crazy!
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ekny
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abzug
Jul 2 2009, 01:06 AM
ekny
 
Cagey, it's not that I don't agree with your comment about Olivia discussing this like a business deal--at times--but that observation doesn't, perhaps, fully address O's underlying emotions: ... I dunno, seems to me sympathy is the order of the day.

I am amused! It seems from reading your post that you think describing Olivia's style as negotiating a business deal is a criticism, or in some way not-feeling. It never occurred to me to read the observation that way. Just b/c it's being handled in a negotiative style doesn't mean there aren't emotions driving it. :) (Spoken like a true business woman, no?)

Wow. Good point. My apologies. I didn't read it that way. And I *am* a businesswoman. Ambivalent much? Hm.

Your reading of N's delivery of that line makes more sense, I'll go with that.

Oh, and... Abzug?

abzug
 
cagey
 

"neckline" abzug? sure.

Omigod. Do you think this means I'm a lesbian? eek.gif

For the love of god, woman, don't tell your girlfriend! First it's cuddling, then it's movie-night, next thing you know it's oral sex. Good thing we don't believe in hell, huh? ;)
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ekny
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http://twitter.com/saintnatalia

the humor here is surprisingly gentle, given the state of people over this development. & very funny. i find it therapeutic.
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molsongrrrl
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Twitter - SinnerOlivia
There's nothing wrong with you that a little Prozac and a polo mallet can't cure.
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abzug
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I would like sinnerolivia more if she didn't spell things with text abbreviations. God, have I become such an old fogey? Or have I always been one? Is it passe to care about spelling and grammar?

ekny
 
For the love of god, woman, don't tell your girlfriend! First it's cuddling, then it's movie-night, next thing you know it's oral sex.

Is that what my future holds? How can I escape this fate? Would it help if I randomly and miraculously got pregnant*?

*This is going to sound weird, but now having watched a number of my lesbian friends have babies in the traditional lesbian way (sperm bank, insemination clinic etc) it kind of annoys me that they'd do a lesbians-having-babies storyline this way. I know they didn't have time, but how cool and realistic would it have been if Olivia and Natalia had conceived (mentally-speaking and physically-speaking) of this baby together, and gone through all the steps as a team (picking out a donor, getting inseminated, going bankrupt from the price of sperm etc)? I want to say we'd never get that on tv, except we actually did, back on ER with Kerry and Sandy. Not that it was done well, but I guess I'd prefer that kind of lesbian pregnancy storyline to this one.
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ekny
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ps--abzug--I felt the same way! (Txt isn't very subtle.)


This is just my own spec, no spoilers. I realize it's a lot less dramatic than anything that's likely to happen. Just trying to redeem things by finding a path through.

I think we're seeing the last of Nat, like maybe today. N. hastily packs a bag for parts unknown. Leaves a message for Olivia. Or not; just vanishes into thin air. (Leaves a msg for Rafe, of course.) Presumably her leave-taking will give some indication this is about the pregnancy storyline, so we know she hasn't been kidnapped by two storylines at the same time.

O is left alone at the barbecue. Everyone witnesses her humiliation. Frank says something horrible. Or just Frankish (they're equivalent): I guess she didn't choose you after all. Something like this. Olivia is gutted & devastated. Take your pick; normally, 1 adjective would suffice but it IS the fourth of July picnic. Blake cannot say anything though she'd like to. Perhaps Reva adds to the fun by bursting into laughter, that would help. Phillip blinks and swallows Dramatically. (Apparently Olivia's always had a thing for tortoises.) He said he's support her but he, too, doubts. Emma asks one of her endlessly anvilish questions: Where's Natalia, mommy? etc, thus Puckishly twisting the soapy knife in Olivia's belly in that charming cute little girl way of hers that keeps us from assigning blame to the writers.

Well. Perhaps not this time.

Maybe next week N calls & tells O. by phone. Olivia is then entitled to a) throw phone across room, b ) pull it away from her head and gawp at it as if she just found out it was wired with explosives, c ) say THIS IS STOOPID!, or d) any combination of the above her charred heart desires.

When N comes back, she redeems herself by explaining how afraid she was, that she kinda-sorta knew & thought Olivia would reject her because it was Frank's Baby. And that this, too, is God's plan. She knows, cause she rang him up.
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cagey
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abzug
 
I would like sinnerolivia more if she didn't spell things with text abbreviations. God, have I become such an old fogey? Or have I always been one? Is it passe to care about spelling and grammar?


Then rafe_rivera's twitter might not appeal to you - although you have to appreciate his sentiments:

Quote:
 
1/2way thru my shift boss was actin weird. mumblin somethin bout bein outta anvils. idk wat hes talkin bout. +frank's weird n stands 2 close


----------

Quote:
 
@ESpencer007 i dont think our plans workin munchkin. how much longer do i gotta stay w @frank_cooper? he smells like fritos in the mornin.



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ekny
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:D Someone else is getting the homosex huh. A'ite.
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traveller
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ekny
Quote:
 
(Apparently Olivia's always had a thing for tortoises.)

LMAO :rofl


Read this on jetgirl78 live journal. Quite good so I thought I would share. Some of her one liners cracked me up. No spoilers just her comments on the Nat baby story line .. "This Crazy Baby Math Is Giving Me a Headache"

http://jetgirl78.livejournal.com/328241.html
Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood ..... Helen Keller

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent .... Eleanor Roosevelt

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ekny
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Mighty quiet around here. Guess everyone's in spoilerland. Or moping disconsolately.

This is from a poster on Twop, sapphic beats:

Quote:
 
I started thinking tonight about all those "love the sinner, hate the sin" types. You know, the ones who think you may be gay, but it's ok as long as you don't ACT on it. The ones who would rather we live in complete isolation, celibacy and utterly loveless for our entire lives to fulfill their religious dictates.

What if (I know I know, it's a big WHAT IF), the reason for playing the story out like this is SPECIFICALLY to highlight the ridiculousness of that entire concept? That the idea of living a life without the physical expression of love is not only utterly ridiculous, but actually immensely cruel? EVERYONE watching this feels how cruel it is. It certainly makes the point very obviously.


Now, this might not make anyone feel better about how the story is playing out for our characters, but I think it's pretty much perfect as a possible "solution". For all the reasons this person just finished outlining. Anyone who can't see that is too emotionally stunted to ever see it so to hell with them: no one can suggest the writers didn't do everything (and more than they should have) to drag them along & help such audience members get a clue.

And... this is *entirely* consistent with the general way the writers have approached this s/l & what some of us have been talking about for months. Because this would be the trump card. The one that closes the argument.

Nat comes back having figured her shit out, & chooses Olivia for real, the end, period. No more fear of god's reprisals, of hating the sin but loving the sinner within--or of teh sex. Because in retrospect, there are only a few ways to fanwank what's been going on with the lack of same for 3 months. And they all boil down to: Nat fought a good fight, & got *this* far... but not, quite, far enough.

It may have unpleasant short-term repercussions for Olivia's self-esteem and, oh, say, will to live, and it may reflect badly on Nat if she freaks & leaves without talking to Olivia first. But in the long run... that's not what the writers seem to be most concerned with; and reparations can still be made. Starting with a honking big apology from N. when she comes back, after sharing information & treating Olivia like, in fact, her partner as they decide to have this stupid baby together. (Because, as Cagey reminded me--these are characters who seem to really, well, ya know: LIKE babies. On a show that uses them to make moral points at the drop of a--. Erm. Well. Anyway.)

The show has, with Fr. Ray's character reversal, made explicit that this is not about god punishing Natalia or wanting her to go back to Frank. Both of which were negatives against Olivia: they were the same reactive, knee-jerk response. Quashed.

A small, encouraging moment (perhaps the only one on today's ep): At least her delivery around the difference between telling Frank and the (mere) *thought* of telling Olivia was a morsel. Nicely done.

So yes, it's going to be very unpleasant watching Olivia fall to pieces tomorrow. It's going to suck. But we've been waiting for this goddamn anvil for MONTHS. Enough already. I say bring it on so we can move forward. Because I remain convinced, within this show's (weirdass) framework, the writers are still being consistent (in their soapy way). They want to talk to the most fearful among what they see as their primary audience Who-is-NOT-us, & help some of them feel less fearful. And if having Natalia say: even carrying Frank's baby, I do not want Frank, I will never want Frank, I'd rather live alone & be wretched forever than have The Best Man in the World. But lo! I do not have to, because I am still loved, still lovable, still capable of contributing to society, being an upstanding member of my community, raising a child, & doing it all with my partner of choice by my side... then it is still possible a few of the dullest blades in East Buttcrack might finally get a clue and think: huh, poor Nat. She doesn't deserve a life of misery after all, and neither does poor Olivia. Ah hell, let 'em be. We won't write letters to the sponsors. And we will not hate those nice ladies down the street quite so much in the future. We will even say Hello to them when we pass each other in the supermarket.


I am not any happier about this plot development than anyone else. It was completely unnecessary. But for a soap opera like this one... it makes a twisted kind of sense. And it's not really that big a surprise. Sex (and the way these characters have of course been completely desexualized--quite the accomplishment given CC's talents) has always been one of the main stumbling blocks for lesbian representation--here more than anywhere. Which makes perfect sense, it being a Christian, family-oriented soap opera.

The way they did it was stupid beyond the call of duty. The fact that it makes Natalia look stupid (and is really a ghastly thing to do to a woman who's worked so diligently while spectacularly pregnant for so long) is stupid. It's galling. etc. The entire storyline--and this, most of all as a counter-example--are object-lessons in the virtues of writing UP to your audience, not DOWN, for heaven's sake. But if we assume Natalia *did* know on some level (as she said) & simply didn't want to deal, because she doesn't want Frank's damn baby--and is still living in fear, herself--then... it does make sense (and does make her look less like a teenager still housed within a 33-year-old character's body). So... it all kinda works. In a weird dissatisfying irritating stupid way. It is even... logical. If you never forget we are in soap-land.


In short: I think it's clear Otalia is still endgame. A lot of people are going to be unhappy with how they get there. Some will bail, & some will stick it out with serious reservations and lingering unhappiness. But if you assume the writers' approach all along has been one thing only--to show that Cute! Pink Bunnies are just as welcome in Pleasantville as anyone else--then the path(s) they have chosen to get their intended audience to that conclusion are, again, quite consistent. Within the show's (rather limited) parameters.
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cagey
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Just a small point.. I didn't get these great ideas, these were from that slightly less hysterical board and belong to "sapphic beats"and if anyone can recruit her to come chat here, I would be appreciative.
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ekny
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My mistake, apologies to both parties. Am going back in to the post now to edit/fix. --e
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molsongrrrl
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My line in the sand was going to be Natalia actually being pregnant with the FrankenSpawn. Meaning, if its true ... I'm out.

But today, ekny really talked me down and out of that mindset with her post above. Damn you!

Plus and probably more importantly I realized today that there isn't much of a choice at this point. If Natalia returns from the nunnery and says to Olivia: listen I worked out my shit and I choose you. I ran because I thought I was pregnant, but I'm not and now I'm back and I choose you.

how would Olivia respond to that? Okay you're not preggers with Frank's baby ... so now you choose me? And if you were actually pregnant ... then what? You'd marry him?

Natalia could claim she'd still choose Olivia - but really where's the proof in that pudding?

The only way this works is if Natalia returns from the nunnery and says listen honey, I found out I'm preggers and I freaked out. But I have my shite together and I choose a life with you.

Olivia might protest for a while over her crap treatment, but in the end - what can she say? Natalia is choosing her - even pregnant with Frankfurter's kid.


As sick as this makes me ... it actually makes some sort of twisted sense. Esp coupled with sapphic beats theory.
There's nothing wrong with you that a little Prozac and a polo mallet can't cure.
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