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Otalia - Guiding Light
Topic Started: Mar 29 2009, 06:54 PM (21,276 Views)
traveller
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G2 landing
molsongrrrl ... I am thrilled that ekny has talked you off the ledge. You have to stay and watch Otalia till the end. After all, this is Soap.

I hear what you are saying. Like you, I would much rather have Nat come home pregnant and choose Olivia.

I am sure Olivia would never accept Plan B. (Nat comes back to Liv because she isn't pregnant). That would be such a slap in the face.

Liv wants family, love and a partnership with Nat and I think Liv would love and adore Nat regardless of the situation. For god's sake, she wants this woman!!
Liv has had far to many disappointments in her love life. Enough already.

I hope Nat uses this time away to get her shite sorted and for once stand up for what she wants and needs instead of trying to please everyone.

Just this once can the writers please let 'Choice and True Love" shine through. I am remaining optimistic. There is going to be a happy ending for Otalia. Maybe not the way most fans want it.... but it will end with Liv & Nat together.
Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood ..... Helen Keller

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent .... Eleanor Roosevelt

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cagey
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G3 Curtain and Duvet!
molsongrrrl
 
But today, ekny really talked me down and out of that mindset with her post above. Damn you!


That ek has awesome powers, doesn't she?

That fetus also has awesome powers. Is it the fact that we have another cliched pregnant lesbian? Or is it because it is Frank's baby? Cause much as I find it very hard to type: both Olivia and Natalia LIKE Frank. Well maybe not the current sanctimonious Frank, but, the one that might come back after he gets over Olivia being, again, the source of his loves labours lost.

The problem with watching a soap is having to accept the values of the soap, which are, sadly, antithetical to my basic principles. And the speech at the end of the BBQ pushed just about everyone one of my buttons. Springfield is special. America is special. We're special cause we are in Springfield and Springfield is in America.

But if this is the land in which this story unfolds, then we must appreciate that culture in order to appreciate the story.

And however much we might think Natalia was being insensitive and cruel towards Olivia today, I don't find it all that hard to get into the place Natalia must be.

I've been thinking about What If....

What if when Liv came back from SF, after the spa, she walked in the house, they passionately kissed and off upstairs they ran? At what point would the Catholic guilt have set in for Natalia? And then how fast would that have caused Olivia to suspect Natalia's feelings for her were not all in?

I am also intrigued about just what exactly is driving Natalia to the nunnery. Is it just the multiplicity of crappy things that has left her unable to see straight anymore?

It's not about her love for Olivia. It's the sex.

Pregnancy is the telltale sign that she had sex. Of course, it must also be the tremendous embarrassment of heading slapping stupidity for getting knocked up twice by accident, for having engaged in SEX. No wonder she thinks god is punishing her... For having sex... Just think what might happen if she did it with a girl?

She asks: which is worse, loving a woman or having sex outside of marriage. She hasn't even got to the having sex with a woman (outside of marriage).

Then I started thinking about the irony of her being sent to the convent to pray away the gay. Well that is probably what Fr. Ray has in mind. And really, I didn't think he was all that bad today. Nat does need a time-out. If she tells Olivia about this right now, the first thing Olivia is going to say is "What does this mean for us?" Meanwhile, given all the history of lesbians in convents, I not so sure it's a bad place for her to "think things through."

Perhaps she will figure out that in a way this baby is Olivia's baby - cause she only slept with Frank to try to erase her feelings for Liv. And if she hadn't been blindly letting the church be her sole source of ethics all these years, she wouldn't have been afraid of those feelings in the first place.

Meanwhile, back at the BBQ - those of you who watch the whole show, I am certain, did not miss the not so subtle subtext of those Speeches about all the entitled Springfieldians - and who was missing? Followed by the montage of happy Springfieldians clutching their loved ones maybe for the last time -- and what were our girls doing?
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molsongrrrl
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G2 landing
Quote:
 
No wonder she thinks god is punishing her... For having sex... Just think what might happen if she did it with a girl?


Well, she wouldn't get pregnant that's for damn sure!

While I get that Natalia needs a break and needs to think - I still find the method the writers took lazy and needlessly cruel.

Natalia couldn't leave a note for Olivia at least (so far we have no proof of any communication with Olivia)? The woman has heart issues! Hell she didn't even tell Rafe she was leaving! And what of Emma?

Abandoning her family this way is just ... you know I don't even have the words right now.

Olivia is supposedly the "bad" girl in this soap opera love story. Bad girl is reformed by the love of good girl. At this moment? Natalia doesn't deserve Olivia - not even one tiny bit.

And for once, Olivia basically did everything right. She's been loving, patient - she hasn't done any scheming or her usual stuff and where does she end up? Exactly where she always does ... alone and heart broken. Thanks show!

Finally, in what universe does the tiresome, loud and thoroughly unappealing Reva always get her man and have one in reserve and yet the always awesome and very hawt Olivia ends up losing at love? Give me a break with this stuff.

Now I realize, Olivia's heart break is a temp situation - afterall Natalia will crawl back soon enough. But for today, I'm annoyed. Natalia better be doing some major wooing upon her return too. Oh wait ... yeah probably not since all we'll get is Franknspawn crap until the end.

Yeah, I am bitter today!
There's nothing wrong with you that a little Prozac and a polo mallet can't cure.
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cagey
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G3 Curtain and Duvet!
molsongrrrl
 
Abandoning her family this way is just ... you know I don't even have the words right now


It was harsh, it was very nasty. She did nasty to Rafe too, just dropping out of town.

molsongrrrl
 
And for once, Olivia basically did everything right. She's been loving, patient - she hasn't done any scheming or her usual stuff and where does she end up? Exactly where she always does ... alone and heart broken. Thanks show!


This time I think the writers did get it right: Olivia being so much willing to let Nat go at her pace, so much of the "what does this mean for us" and where did that get them? shit means that Liv has to fight for what she wants.

Or so I am hoping, as the one who refuses to believe in any baby.

molsongrrrl
 
Olivia is supposedly the "bad" girl in this soap opera love story. Bad girl is reformed by the love of good girl. At this moment? Natalia doesn't deserve Olivia - not even one tiny bit.


There's most of July, August and half of September coming. To think just a day or two ago I was saying that Otalia has no plot left except to kiss.
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ekny
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In love with a prisoner
cagey
 
This time I think the writers did get it right: Olivia being so much willing to let Nat go at her pace, so much of the "what does this mean for us" and where did that get them? shit means that Liv has to fight for what she wants.

As Molsongrrl said below, Olivia has done everything right. And she has fought but in a new way: she's been fighting her own fears for months. But some of them she needed Nat by her side to conquer, because some of them weren't just about Them being a couple but them being a Couple ie as you said so eloquently, teh sex. She can't fight for everything on her own: not just sex but what it will mean for & to her--to be with the one who's chosen her. And in a super-weird way... the show has just made that pretty clear. Or at least it will if it goes where it needs to & where this seems to be pointing. Since Olivia's devastation is the audience's.

(I was grateful they didn't dwell for tacky eons on end on Olivia's face weeping in close-up. A bit, yeah, but they were surprisingly sophisticated about that. Watching that stuff from a distance is almost always more effective, both cinematically & emotionally.)

So I read the above & was momentarily really confused & thought--did you mean, Nat has to fight for what she wants? Because at this point I think some serious wooing including but not limited to flowers, candy, diamonds, pearls, & frontal nudity would be in order. For starters. Groveling would also not be amiss.


Cagey, you previous post was all kinds of wonderful.

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The problem with watching a soap is having to accept the values of the soap, which are, sadly, antithetical to my basic principles.

<dap!>

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Pregnancy is the telltale sign that she had sex. Of course, it must also be the tremendous embarrassment of heading slapping stupidity for getting knocked up twice by accident, for having engaged in SEX. No wonder she thinks god is punishing her... For having sex... Just think what might happen if she did it with a girl?

She asks: which is worse, loving a woman or having sex outside of marriage. She hasn't even got to the having sex with a woman (outside of marriage).

Sorry to do the annoying quoting-back-from-two-lines-ago thing but this post really was deadly accurate, and in the case of the above, painfully funny.


Molson, I think Olivia will be all over this, she's many things but not passive. Maybe she can rip Blake into small pieces. Again: for starters.

This set of beats is necessary though. First we do the Abandonment thing. And self-flagellation & assuming she's not worthy & has not, in fact, been chosen. Then with the abject misery. Oh yes, it's gonna be a fun few weeks. Nat will have much crawling to do.

Because Olivia has done everything right, it is clear that this is all Natalia's baggage. Every last bit of it. I for one just don't want to see her coming back, do the boohoo Why Do I Hurt Everyone thing & have Olivia instantly forgive her. Or... apologize. I cannot take one more Olivia apology for stuff that is not her responsibility, that level of self-abnegation is killing me. ... sorry. I'm back. Yes, Virginia, it has been a difficult week.

But as for Natalia--her behavior is sadly consistent too. She makes terrible, terrible choices quite regularly whenever the crisis is her crisis. She's great with other people. Heart attack? Nooo problem. Threatening ex-husbands? Snap. Her own moral dilemmas & uncertainties? Not so much. It's not a bad thing to have a character who's screwed up in a particular arena, it helps clarify who they are--which has been tricky with Natalia for a long time. It's just that this arena overlaps Olivia's heart, at the moment, which is making us not-happy. Which, unfortunately, it's supposed to do. Which is why Otalia is still on. And why we are a bunch of suckers watching a soap opera. ;)
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molsongrrrl
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Oh yeah I agree, I think we will get a bit of Olivia Freakin' Spencer back - after a period of misery and all that. But yeah as much as I love me some Blake - her stuff to Olivia was way harsh today. I'm rather hoping Olivia does give her some crap.

As to Natalia. Yeah, there better not be instant forgiveness when she crawls back to town. I want wooing - I want begging - I want Olivia saying "I deserve better treatment."

I love Dimples, but really it's past time for her to really and truly stand up for her woman and their relationship. No more of that wishy washy stuff. Find the backbone permanently.

There's nothing wrong with you that a little Prozac and a polo mallet can't cure.
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marymartin
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The ghost of Larkhall!
molsongrrrl
Jul 4 2009, 05:33 AM
Oh yeah I agree, I think we will get a bit of Olivia Freakin' Spencer back - after a period of misery and all that. But yeah as much as I love me some Blake - her stuff to Olivia was way harsh today. I'm rather hoping Olivia does give her some crap.

As to Natalia. Yeah, there better not be instant forgiveness when she crawls back to town. I want wooing - I want begging - I want Olivia saying "I deserve better treatment."

I love Dimples, but really it's past time for her to really and truly stand up for her woman and their relationship. No more of that wishy washy stuff. Find the backbone permanently.

ITA with you and I blame the writers for turning her into this spineless jellyfish. As someone on another board asked when the pregnancy plot broke: "Did Jessica Leccia kill Jill Lorie Hurst's dog or something? Why are the writers doing this to her?"

We damn well better get some mighty big payoff the week of September 14th is all I've got to say on the subject.
"Thomas is gorgeous. He's everything you would want in a man. But I want a woman."
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Jeanna
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I said SIT IN THAT CHAIR
Such an embarrassment of riches here. All these thoughtful posts. I should have trusted I wouldn't pile on the angst by diving in. Embarrassing because I thought to stay away over the past few days and not further burden myself but old adages are just that for a reason as a burden shared is one halved or quartered, or drawn and quartered as I (and alas poor Olivia) was left feeling and that is apparently not unshared as well.

Did I miss something in the Phillip exchange? Liv just totally took it for granted and hit the ground running assuming that since he seemed to know already months ago that she didn't have to fill him in that he was indeed correct about the nature of her relationship with Natalia. He might have looked a little surprised, I guess.

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ek: For the record--my email correspondents will back me up--I figured out the pregnancy thing. It's logical (in a stupid soap way)/+deduction.


Yes, she did guess the pregnancy possibility when I was still talking all around the issue in an attempt to keep it from her, but as it loomed closer on the horizon not unlike the Star Child at the climax of 2001 I had to say, 'e., now what the hell would have you thinking such an outlandish thing as that?! Wouldn't that be just the height of the stupidity mountain if they climbed that hoary old plot device at this late date?' See...a little misdirection. Acknowledge it in a sideways manner while scoffing, it won't be true. <G> For who would wish to ruin their rather well thought-out overall cliche-less (as well as "label-less" hah!) love story with the biggest soap cliche of all?

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ek: Let's assume this is a telescoped version of the original plotline. I don't believe they did have two different versions. They had one. They're soap writers. Otalia fall in love, Nat gets pregnant


One wonders about the original timeline and if, indeed, it was always their intention to tell the story this way. Since, once the actress' pregnancy made itself known, it would seem that would have been the perfect opportunity (and taken it entirely out of their hands! they could have played Pilate and denied they'd ever have done it otherwise, eh) presenting itself to make use of the situation well at hand, but noooo. They insisted they weren't going to write HER pregnancy into the show (and didn't till the last possible moment); does anyone know if that's how they phrased it, and were being 'cagey' (excuse me, Cagey)? Or did they just flat out lie?

e, you and someone else in a post here awhile back assumed the wedding would have been a done deal too, me I don't think the marriage would have happened. They always intended for this bride to do a big dramatic runner. Without which we would have been denied the now iconically romantic gazebo scene.

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cagey
I still think Nat never marries Frank just for the timing issues of when the would be marriage happened - before cancellation.


Yep.

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ek: Assuming it's not a false/hysterical pregnancy



Now...there's a thought. But...only with the catholic hysteric stigmata effect would it produce positive blood tests. But, considering Nat's stress, that would have been an interesting row to hoe, so to speak.


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ek: There is simply no way to happily address/resolve this problem within straight media, far as I can see. If there is, it sure hasn't happened yet. Lesbians react poorly to the presence of a man as interloper/plot-development. There are excellent historic reasons for this, as I am well aware. But it doesn't change the basics around *this* storyline, which is that any kind of expression of sexuality is beyond what this show has been thus far able to accommodate, because it is very invested in accommodating the lowest common denominator: fearful straight viewers. Those are the people being addressed with this storyline.


Exactly.

Have there been any rows, pro and con, homophobic or p.c., dreary old nature/nurture going on around the net about their use of the word "choice" to describe this particular same sex relationship? 'There ya see, it is a choice!' 'No! you have to be born that way!' That sort of argument cropping up anywhere, or is this story rather unique enough to allay that kind of battle from either side?

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ek: the wedding/gondola business,


:huh: Gazebo? <G>

Quote:
 
abzug:   Because in ten years we're lucky if we get a handful of emotionally involving, realistically written storylines. Bad Girls. ER (and that ended badly), Guiding Light, Sugar Rush. I can't count The L Word or Grey's Anatomy. Am I missing any other major lesbian relationships from the past 10 years? I don't think so.


How about "Buffy" (tho...realism might not be the key word in a fantasy series--and also...ended badly) and the even younger teen girls of "Once and Again" ? Both very significant in their own way and for that reason alone. (The youth of the characters.)

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traveller: As I have said before, I watched the entire L Word series and never felt any connection to the characters like N&K and Liv & Nat.


Completely, absolutely, true true true. Again...Liv kisses Nat's palm speaks to me more than anything in six seasons of that infamous, defamatory, tacky series.

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ek: But it continues to make sense to me structurally both in terms of how this soap seems to work & what they've apparently mapped out as the way to get their chosen audience who-is-not-us to the place they want them to get to.


I think you are most likely correct...and who in god's little blue heaven ever in a gazillion years thought that YOU would be the one to clear people off the ledge!!? Not I, said the little brown wren.

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cagey: The stick is blue...the herring is red... the dog barks at midnight


<G>

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get the frack out of Springfield and move in with Ava in the other SF.


What a wonderfully sound idea.


Quote:
 
abzug

QUOTE (Jeanna)
Is it comforting to know that people are still waving the Red Herring flag? I don't know.


I just find the pregnancy red herring idea even more difficult to stomach, now that I've seen the pregnancy testing scenes. I mean, a messed up home test PLUS a screwed up blood test at the hospital? I guess in a soap you can do anything, but still....


Yes, that's true, they do very ludicrous things, but this was their more realistic story and I have to accept what we've seen as well, tho so many made a big deal about the "label-less" ness (there it is again!) of the vials at the hospital.

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ek: I dunno, seems to me sympathy is the order of the day. At least after today it sure is. This is gonna be kinda gruesome.


Let's try to have a little christian charity for poor forlorn Nat. All right, wrong choice of words. But...come on...how many of us were ever pregnant at 16, scared, and rejected by the very people who should love us unconditionally, and ejected from our own home? And this is redux. And revisited. Tho I can't seriously believe she'd think Liv would reject her for it. Really, more than even the lame pregnancy plot device is making Nat look really foolish for letting it happen twice...even tho 20 yrs. is a long time between Big Mistakes. She must realize, or will come to realize, that she doesn't have to be and is not alone this time.

If she would call now Liv would say 'whatever it is, it doesn't matter, just come home now and we can get through it together, no blame' but as long as she leaves Liv to be the one to figure it out... Father Ray will be no help he's sort of bound by 'the confessional' and Blake already told her it was for Nat to say.

Quote:
 
abzug:
QUOTE (ekny)
The (very) perfunctory Iloveyoutoo at the end wasn't happy-making.


I didn't find it perfunctory. The tears, to me, indicated a surfeit of emotion, emotion which Nat found herself completely ill-equipped to deal with. She couldn't respond to Olivia's joy and openness, because she wasn't feeling joyful or open. But I didn't get the sense that she didn't mean the "I love you"--just that other emotions were breaking through in a really big way.


I agree. I'm rather impressed, at times, as to how much she can bottle it up and seem rather emotionless unless you watch her very carefully. It's unnerving to see someone crying that much and remaining relatively expressionless.

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abzug: I have horrible insomnia right now, and have to get up in 5 1/2 hours. And I think part of what's keeping me up is this silly show! I've got Otalia on my mind, and it's driving me a bit crazy!


I must be suffering from exactly the same malady or syndrome then, and I'd originally thought I would be immune. I can't even imagine how crazed I would have been between the end of BG series 2 waiting for 3 to begin.


Quote:
 
ek: It may have unpleasant short-term repercussions for Olivia's self-esteem and, oh, say, will to live, and it may reflect badly on Nat if she freaks & leaves without talking to Olivia first. But in the long run... that's not what the writers seem to be most concerned with; and reparations can still be made. Starting with a honking big apology from N. when she comes back, after sharing information & treating Olivia like, in fact, her partner as they decide to have this stupid baby together.


Yes. All that. And I'd been thinking and saying for some time now that she would just disappear and no one wanted to believe it. I didn't think anyone would know where she'd gone to though. And are we positive she has gone to that religious retreat?

They just might be able to pull off the rest of this story. The economy with which this was told...I'm left with surprisingly indelible images for a story told in video... Rafe's eyes tracking but not quite taking in the meaning of his mom with the suitcase, that car sadly (!) pulling away and off down the road, and of course the painful image of Liv's heart breaking.

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ek: then it is still possible a few of the dullest blades in East Buttcrack might finally get a clue and think: huh, poor Nat. She doesn't deserve a life of misery after all, and neither does poor Olivia. Ah hell, let 'em be. We won't write letters to the sponsors. And we will not hate those nice ladies down the street quite so much in the future. We will even say Hello to them when we pass each other in the supermarket.


This made me smile a happy smile. <G>

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ek: Sex (and the way these characters have of course been completely desexualized--quite the accomplishment given CC's talents) has always been one of the main stumbling blocks for lesbian representation--here more than anywhere.


Quite so.

Tho part of the genius of this story is the notable, even famed, sensuality of the particular soap diva-vixen-man-eater being 'tamed' with her literal change of heart and her love for another woman. It's just not done. Until now. And turns around the tired old saw directed at lesbians of waiting for the right man to come along, Liv evidently had been waiting for the right woman. Given her backstory, in retrospect, it now makes all kinds of sense to do this and they were so right to have been wanting to tell this story for so long.

Quote:
 
ek: So... it all kinda works. In a weird dissatisfying irritating stupid way. It is even... logical. If you never forget we are in soap-land.


And again. Yup.

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molson: The only way this works is if Natalia returns from the nunnery and says listen honey, I found out I'm preggers and I freaked out. But I have my shite together and I choose a life with you.
Olivia might protest for a while over her crap treatment, but in the end - what can she say? Natalia is choosing her - even pregnant with Frankfurter's kid.



Mmhm. I see a lot of lesbian viewers (the ones who are still watching) switching from the position of no pregnancy or miscarriage to now saying she'll have to be pregnant for that reason alone, anything else has the choice being made for her.

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cagey: And however much we might think Natalia was being insensitive and cruel towards Olivia today, I don't find it all that hard to get into the place Natalia must be.

Perhaps she will figure out that in a way this baby is Olivia's baby - cause she only slept with Frank to try to erase her feelings for Liv.


Exactly. That was my fan-fic-ish kind of wish too...however, I'm highly skeptical the writers would ever articulate it this way. Frank was the only one basking in any afterglow, for Nat it was pure guilt and not just the catholic out of wedlock sex kind, she was thinking of Olivia and that she'd somehow been unfaithful.

Quote:
 
molson: Finally, in what universe does the tiresome, loud and thoroughly unappealing Reva always get her man and have one in reserve and yet the always awesome and very hawt Olivia ends up losing at love? Give me a break with this stuff.


Oh, I hear ya. Loud and clear. No justice. It seems women are rarely as redeemable on soaps as rapists, e.g., long a point of contention that soap writers never address.

Quote:
 
molson: But yeah as much as I love me some Blake - her stuff to Olivia was way harsh today.


It was. It sounded (to us and therefore unfortunately to Olivia) as tho Nat was breaking up with her for good and would not be coming back which leaves her to only surmise that she's been left again, is unworthy of ever being loved, is being punished herself, or that it's all her fault and that she must have pressured Nat into coming out when she clearly wasn't ready. The irony is, of course, that she was. Ready. Finally. So...now how long is it going to take Liv to put this together in any semblance of a discernible pattern of any kind in her mind in the shattered state she is in? Any guesses? Will she confront Blake? Will she confront Father Ray?! Oh lord. I wanna see that. Will Blake tell FRANK FIRST?! before she ever divulges to Liv? And will Natalia actually be at the place where Ray and/or Blake thinks she is when they go looking for her? I know, I know...tune in tomorrow...or Monday, actually.

Quote:
 
ek: It's not a bad thing to have a character who's screwed up in a particular arena, it helps clarify who they are--which has been tricky with Natalia for a long time. It's just that this arena overlaps Olivia's heart, at the moment, which is making us not-happy. Which, unfortunately, it's supposed to do. Which is why Otalia is still on. And why we are a bunch of suckers watching a soap opera.


How beautifully, perfectly you sum up, counselor. In that tasty nutshell.

Now...happy BBQ day! Hope it's almost as much fun as Dr. Rick's! <G>
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ekny
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In love with a prisoner
jeanna
 
I think you are most likely correct...and who in god's little blue heaven ever in a gazillion years thought that YOU would be the one to clear people off the ledge!!? Not I, said the little brown wren.

Heh. Well--you remember that verrry first email I sent you about this in March? I think it was to you.... <rustle>

"More than half the people I speak to regularly have dropped off the face of the planet. I feel like they've taken the FTL probe out to Arcturus, where they're lounging in the rays but only using sunblock 15000, & they're gobbling shrooms & partying all night for weeks on end. And if they make it back they'll spend ages feverish and sick and saying Oh god, what have I done, why did I risk it! Never again, I knew better, etc etc; & I'll be supposed to hold their fringe as they upchuck over & over as I make There-There noises when all I really want to say is oh lord, what did you THINK was going to happen?

Yes. An extended lost weekend for lesbians. On another planet.

Some won't make it back. Space-travel is like that."

And NOW of course I'm stuck out here with you! So have to make the best of it. What we do for our Friends. :D


jeanna
 
But...come on...how many of us were ever pregnant at 16, scared, and rejected by the very people who should love us unconditionally, and ejected from our own home? And this is redux. And revisited.

You're right, absolutely. She's in the same headspace, it's the whole same set of emotions for her: her son's being a twat, her priest is no (damn) help at all, shame shame shame.

jeanna
 
Frank was the only one basking in any afterglow, for Nat it was pure guilt and not just the catholic out of wedlock sex kind, she was thinking of Olivia and that she'd somehow been unfaithful.

Given that each of them has slept with him exactly once (correct?) and that Natalia looked like she'd rather be playing in traffic, I have to also conclude that Frank's a lousy lay, as well. Surprise. Not.

Reconsidering this exit of Natalia's: Cagey, who is busy today like most people, suggested that the feeling Natalia Should have Left a Note overlooks the fact that she's in crisis, and as I said the other night, Natalia in Crisis is anything but practical.


twoper
 
I am struck - first with Blake and then with Fr. Ray, she just announces it - "I'm pregnant" - like it's an irrefutable statement of her own doom, her own worthlessness.  She is completely back to being 16 and the only next step that sounds remotely safe is to leave town and hope everyone forgets her cause she went through THAT shame and ridicule once before.

[...]we are all identifying with Olivia and want Natalia to make the grand gesture, grovel, pay for this slap in the face she just did. [...] It is an expectation of responsibility and thinking about the other person that, while we come to expect that of Nat, is so totally not where she is at the moment.  The only thing on her mind is that she is pregnant.


The other thing it's easy for me to forget is this: I admire Olivia's ability to fight for what she wants & to allow herself to be changed by love. That's why we're so gutted for Olivia, and angered by Nat's exit--although what could she have said in a note? There isn't a thing. Everything we'd want her to say is what she has to figure out.

I forget Natalia loves God, as well as Olivia. I forget it because I don't have a religious bone in my body, but also because Natalia's religious feelings are so deeply internal. Other than showing her praying, lighting candles, etc--what can they do? But I have to respect her religion even if I don't get it. And she has to learn to separate all these different conflicts in her head & figure her stuff OUT. But the more I look at it (while trying to step over the whole pregnancy mess at the same time which does make me a little seasick), the more it plays out in a way that makes sense. These characters are still themselves. imo.
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cagey
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Jeanna
 

But...come on...how many of us were ever pregnant at 16, scared, and rejected by the very people who should love us unconditionally, and ejected from our own home? And this is redux. And revisited.


I totally agree. I am hoping that this trip to the retreat will give both Natalia and Olivia an opportunity to reconcile with their teenage pregnancies and the fall-out associated with each.

Jeanna regarding if we know where Natalia heading off to - not officially. But I don't think it's the Motel 6 on the highway. I'm assuming Blake just took her to the train or bus - though considering the Spa was close enough for Emma to get Jane to drive her, maybe the retreat is 6 blocks down and 2 over from the church. Love that you figured she would just "disappear". From the first I figured she was going to leave to figure out what her feelings towards Olivia meant. Then I talked myself out of that premise through May and June. Soap is so visceral - one's gut reaction is usually right, in the end.

No, ek - I don't think you changed the sentiment of my comments. I was struck by the furor and pain we the viewers felt about Olivia being so left in the lurch - without even a note or message from Blake. But what could she possibly say? I love you but I don't know if we can ever be together?

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but also because Natalia's religious feelings are so deeply internal. Other than showing her praying, lighting candles, etc--what can they do?


Well we won't see it, but I assume she will be spending a lot of time walking in the garden, cause all retreats have gardens, muttering to herself. Which for those of us who no longer or never did know how, is simply coming to terms with the situation at hand, aka, *praying*.

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So I read the above & was momentarily really confused & thought--did you mean, Nat has to fight for what she wants? Because at this point I think some serious wooing including but not limited to flowers, candy, diamonds, pearls, & frontal nudity would be in order. For starters. Groveling would also not be amiss.


Yes Nat has to fight for what she wants. Olivia does too. I am a little tired of the passivity of the last month of endless caress and waiting for other people to accept them. First thing, Natalia has to fight 30 years of religious conditioning to get to a place where she can love Olivia body and soul. Second she has to fight 20 years of conditioning that have left her always feeling unworthy and slightly soiled. Then, finally, she can go back to Olivia - not to grovel or woo - but to say she is now a woman worthy of Olivia's love.

Meanwhile, Olivia has got to stop with the "you are so worth waiting for" passivity. Not to mention the "you are the most nurturing person I've ever known." It puts Natalia on a pedestal, it fetishizes her, it refuses to see the very deep flaws Natalia sees in herself. What has been healthy for Olivia in this relationship is that she has let herself love without an agenda. But she needs to proclaim and assert her right to love as much as Natalia does.

If they get that far.
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abzug
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I've been away without any real computer access since Thursday night, so I just got a chance to catch up on this thread. I had, however, been emailing with a couple of Otalia fans on my blackberry, and they were in such a state of hysterics I had spent the last few days sending out emails every few hours giving various thoughts and theories on why this was not inconsistent behavior for Nat, why it wasn't character assassination on the part of the writers, etc etc etc. And I thought the discussion on this thread would be similarly anxious and dismayed. So what a RELIEF it was to come read the last two pages of this thread. A real treat to see everyone's thoughts and analyses, some similar ideas to the ones I had come up with in my blackberry-isolation. Anyway, I'm glad there's a place online where we can continue to take the story as it's told, share the things we dislike without rejecting the entire thing out of hand. Which isn't to say that anyone should feel shy sharing what they're upset about. Lots of different viewpoints is good. :)

Anyway, I don't have anything to add which hasn't already been said, although if anyone wants me to put together a 1500-word analysis on Natalia's psychological motivations for leaving town without telling Olivia.... You know me, I'm nothing if not verbose.

Oh, and Jeanna, I never count Buffy the Vampire Slayer when it comes to lesbian relationships because I personally found the character of Tara (and Amber Benson the actress) to be so completely unappealing that the relationship never even registered for me as Lesbian. But if we include teen relationships, then there's not just Once and Again (only depicted in two or three eps, so I'm not sure it counts) but also South of Nowhere. Maybe we need to start considering adult lesbian relationships vs adolescent ones? They do seem to be two relatively distinct categories, in terms of themes, depth of emotion etc.
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ekny
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This entire post is off-topic. It is SO. NICE. to have a board where we can do this a bit without getting spanked, I swear.

Just a minor correction: Once & Again played out over the third season, & though Jessie & Katie, I think it was, weren't in every episode, they were in at least 8 or 9. And though the relationship was unresolved in terms of family, etc, in the end, largely bec of the show's unexpected cancellation, I think... it was treated as if it was important, and respectfully--there was never anything patronizing about the scriptwriting. No suggestion of teenage Experimentation, etc. Katie had already been involved with another girl at school, & the presentation around Jessie wasn't ever treated as if this was anything other than first love, period. It was the sole thing going on with Jessie for that entire season; I definitely count it, myself.

Also Sugar Rush, which, whatever its many faults, was unabashedly (perhaps exploitatively at points) sexual--and totally unapologetic about the main character's lesbianism, hell, that's what it was about. And despite my reservations about W/T... given when it aired it was the only lesbian s/l airing at the time in over, what, 600+ characters on tv?--it has to count for... something. Ymmv, obviously, as everyone's seems to, for the pair. Regarding how it ended, the Kennedy thing, etc, I'd only add that again, they never, at least, backtracked on Willow's sexuality.

(Short comment re S3 of Skins w/spoilers: drag your mouse over it to highlight it if you want to read)
Also: haven't seen Skins, S3. I understand the lesbian did have pity-sex with her male best friend, which pissed off a lot of people (golly, why does this seem so... familiar?!) but gets together with her gf in the end.

Good to have you back! :)

Okay, I go back on topic now, sorry...!
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abzug: I have horrible insomnia right now, and have to get up in 5 1/2 hours. And I think part of what's keeping me up is this silly show! I've got Otalia on my mind, and it's driving me a bit crazy!


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Jeanna:I must be suffering from exactly the same malady or syndrome then, and I'd originally thought I would be immune. I can't even imagine how crazed I would have been between the end of BG series 2 waiting for 3 to begin.

Thank god I'm not alone. I have been watching far too many back episodes of Otalia. I was hoping it would give me clues as to why the writers have brought the Otalia s/l to where it is today. Natalia's reason for leaving has me perplexed. I heard Natalia tell Olivia that she trusted her with her life. So, why would she leave??

Then I lay awake for hours trying to piece it all together. It is driving me nuts! :huh:

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abzug: if anyone wants me to put together a 1500-word analysis on Natalia's psychological motivations for leaving town without telling Olivia....


Yes please ... I need sleep !
Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood ..... Helen Keller

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent .... Eleanor Roosevelt

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Jeanna
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ekny
Jul 4 2009, 10:43 PM
Just a minor correction: Once & Again played out over the third season, & though Jessie & Katie, I think it was, weren't in every episode, they were in at least 8 or 9. And though the relationship was unresolved in terms of family, etc, in the end, largely bec of the show's unexpected cancellation, I think... it was treated as if it was important, and respectfully--there was never anything patronizing about the scriptwriting. No suggestion of teenage Experimentation, etc. Katie had already been involved with another girl at school, & the presentation around Jessie wasn't ever treated as if this was anything other than first love, period. It was the sole thing going on with Jessie for that entire season; I definitely count it, myself.

Also Sugar Rush, which, whatever its many faults, was unabashedly (perhaps exploitatively at points) sexual--and totally unapologetic about the main character's lesbianism, hell, that's what it was about. And despite my reservations about W/T... given when it aired it was the only lesbian s/l airing at the time in over, what, 600+ characters on tv?--it has to count for... something. Ymmv, obviously, as everyone's seems to, for the pair. Regarding how it ended, the Kennedy thing, etc, I'd only add that again, they never, at least, backtracked on Willow's sexuality.


I agree with all that.


Willow...never backtracked...not even when Oz came back to town, and in a very notable appearance and story that was all about her 'coming out.' Their were moments that cannot be ignored, like W painting Sappho's Ode to Aphrodite on Tara's back in a dream-y sequence...that, as you and I have previously discussed, ek, is one of my top favorite Sapphic moments evah. And, also, I think one sweet moment that cannot be underestimated in its possible gentle influence on that show's mixed audience was when the teen witches danced together at the school dance (was it a prom?) and, in perfect evocation of the feeling of falling in love making one float on air--they did just that.

Also, as with Dr. Weaver on "ER," with Willow we have the very important development of having a long-running regular character in a popular show coming out as lesbian.

I know we're talking about Romantic Relationships here essentially and how few of those, well handled, that we've ever seen--damn too few--and that we certainly concede reservations about how these shows handled the actual relationship. "Bad Girls" is nonpareil--we all agree with that wholeheartedly. It will never be bettered.

First season of "Sugar Rush"--brill. Second...not so much.

And, yeh, I'll include the first season of "South of Nowhere" as significant, something that was fleeting and flittted away over the next two seasons.

And, yes, Abzug, I wanna read that essay!!!!!!!!!!
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abzug
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OK, it's not an essay, really. It's ideas from a bunch of different emails I wrote over the weekend, that I have attempted to cobble together into some coherent form. Here ya go:

I've gathered that there are two major concerns about Natalia's actions during last week's episodes. Viewers see some 'character assassination' going on because she ran away, and because she didn't tell Olivia what was happening or that she was leaving town. These two actions don't seem consistent with the stubborn fighter and Olivia-lover who Natalia has seemed to be over the last year and a half.

But I found her behavior and decisions to be pretty coherent with her overall character, and I thought the writers developed her crisis effectively, so that I believed she would run away without talking to Olivia, even though she knew it would completely crush the woman she loves.

What I liked most was that she didn't disavow her love for Olivia at all. She still loves Olivia. She's been struggling to understand what that means for a while now, and she's had a setback, but not one which has caused her to question whether she loves Olivia, and not one that has convinced her that she shouldn't be with Olivia. It's just a setback which has made her less certain than she had been. And frankly, that's not so strange for a straight woman who has just fallen in love with a woman for the first time. Natalia has only had 2 1/2 months since she and Olivia confessed their feelings, and less than six months since the My Two Mommies kiss. That is NOT a long time for this sort of thing, and it's completely natural to get neurotic, have changes of heart or conflicted feelings and change your behavior because of them.

Going to the barbeque with Olivia was the point of no return for Natalia. And I think we can't discount that as a factor for her crazed behavior, running off without a word to Olivia. As much as she had come to terms with her feelings, it probably felt like she was jumping off a cliff, and wasn't sure what was below.

On top of all the normal sexuality anxiety issues, Natalia's a person who has certain religious beliefs, and they provide a structure for her to interpret the world. And even though she found herself in love with a woman, she never gave up on the religious beliefs, or their interpretive framework. So of course the pregnancy would be God trying to tell her something. And of course she would be confused about what that message is. She had convinced herself that God was love, that God would want her to love Olivia. But then this pregnancy leads her to question her conclusions, to wonder if she was understanding God correctly.

In addition to the confusing messages from heaven, there are intertwined cultural pressures at play. Natalia is a person who was brought up to think that if someone gets you pregnant, you marry that person (if you've sinned by having sex before marriage). So even if you're in love with someone else, you do the right thing and marry the father of your unborn baby. Period. I'm not saying this is what she thinks she needs to do, but it's ingrained in her, so it winds up raising questions she hadn't yet resolved in herself.

The fact is, Natalia hadn't fully resolved the conflict between her religion and her love for Olivia. She maintained a connection to Father Ray, even though he actively disapproved of her 'lifestyle choices.' Why would she do that? I think Natalia really thought she could be with Olivia AND not give up any of her Catholicism, not really recognizing how much her Catholicism (as embodied by Fr Ray) would undermine the relationship. In fact, it now seems apparent that Natalia still had doubts, but was repressing them, and yet also making sure she would hear them expressed by an outside source (Fr Ray).

Given all these under-the-surface issues simmering, maybe it was intentional that she and Olivia hadn't kissed--the Christian Tortoise wasn't ready, and that lack of readiness reflected some really deep-seated unresolved issues in her. Again, NOT a surprise, with only 2 1/2 months of processing. It takes lots of Catholics YEARS to accept their sexuality, and even if you factor in the Olivia-sexiness factor, 2 1/2 months would still be kind of record speediness.

OK, so unresolved religious issues, potential message from God, and a total lack of clarity on what that message means all pushed Natalia to decide to leave town to figure things out. But then why wouldn't she tell Olivia she was pregnant, that she needed some space and was going to go away?

She's absolutely terrified. She's gotten this shocking news, and she thinks it contains a message from God. She loves Olivia and is terrified of disappointing her or breaking her heart, and she thinks she might have to do that. She's completely bewildered, and she probably assumes Olivia will take charge and not leave her completely free to make a decision, because that's what Olivia does when Natalia is bewildered and indecisive (you should say yes to Frank's proposal; let's get you back to the church so you can marry him). If Natalia needs time to think, on her own, then she can't tell Olivia she's leaving or where she's going because Olivia will chase her down. She's trying to figure out what SHE wants, without any outside influence or pressures.

(As a side note, I'm also wondering if perhaps unconciously Natalia WANTS Olivia to chase her down, and that's why she left this way, almost testing Olivia's love (although I think she's completely unaware of this impulse).)

Most importantly, Natalia has not shared any of her Catholic-related issues with Olivia since she told Fr Ray about the relationship. Olivia didn't know Fr Ray disapproved; in fact whatever Natalia said about it led Olivia to believe the opposite. As far as Olivia could see, Natalia has still been completely involved in the Church, without any change. So if Natalia has been hiding the religion-related stuff from Olivia all along, it's not so weird that she wouldn't be able to figure out how to talk to Olivia about this, and would avoid doing so.

It's also possible Natalia felt like Olivia would approve of her taking some time to think and gain clarity. Olivia's been incredibly patient, told Natalia she's 'so worth waiting for.' A few weeks ago Olivia talked about the two of them needing to disentangle themselves so no one will think they are with each other because of the 'drama.' Olivia also added that she didn't want either one of them to ever wonder/worry that they were together because of the drama. So the conclusion was that they needed to step back/apart in order to come back together stronger, because they choose each other. OK, fine. But what we didn't know was that Natalia was going to take this idea VERY seriously, that she was going to need to REALLY step back in order to figure out for herself if she's ready to choose Olivia. She thought she was, but the pregnancy caused a spiritual crisis for her, and so she actually needed to do the very thing she and Olivia discussed, just unilaterally and drastically, which I'm sure is not what Olivia intended when they talked about it in her office.

It's unclear to me if Natalia even knows how to be selfish without destroying other people. he's been putting Rafe first for 19 years. This is the first time since her wedding to Gus that Natalia has put herself first. That wedding represented her last fully selfish act, and at that time she ALSO 'broke' Olivia's heart by locking her up so she couldn't stop the wedding, thus depriving Olivia of a heart transplant. So Natalia isn't very good at being selfish without really hurting other people. But she's got to learn how to make choices and decisions where her own needs are being met. That's what this 'spiritual retreat' is about, as far as I'm concerned. For Natalia to figure out how to live the way she wants to live without breaking anyone else's heart. She sucks at it right now, sucks a LOT. And she knows it, which is why she almost never has acted in this kind of selfish way. But it's not uncharacteristic for her, just unusual. And it's not the writers turning Natalia into a cruel evil person. The fact is, I guess a person can BE good, but sometimes do bad hurtful things, even to someone they love.

All that said, I can't defend the storytelling which made Nat unaware she was pregnant. That's stupid. But if I can find it in myself to forgive that plot device, I really like what they are doing in terms of making this an emotional and religious crisis for her. I'm not sure how else they could have brought on this type of sudden doubt in her while giving us two months of lovey dovey Otalia, which I am glad they gave us. Could they have made Rafe sick? But then it would have been narcicistic of Nat to make that about her own choices. So really this was the only way I can think of....
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