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Otalia - Guiding Light
Topic Started: Mar 29 2009, 06:54 PM (21,275 Views)
solitasolano
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Woohoo....another brain kiss...I didn't even have to add my " :ph43r: ing" plea to the chorus for said "essay". Only now it's only fair to pull my weight and contribute forthwith...First to read and then to "do my time" and contribute to the discussion.

traveller
 
Thank god I'm not alone. I have been watching far too many back episodes of Otalia. I was hoping it would give me clues as to why the writers have brought the Otalia s/l to where it is today.
See what an easy last couple of days at work with endless internet youtube access has done to me...I'm right there with you traveller.
Pregnancy s/l nothwithstanding, I owe you all.
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Jeanna
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I said SIT IN THAT CHAIR
:hug2 Aww. Hugs my above poster for giving in and drinking the purple Kool-aid finally.

Women as strong as you have fallen ere now. <G>

ABZUG:
Quote:
 
because that's what Olivia does when Natalia is bewildered and indecisive (you should say yes to Frank's proposal; let's get you back to the church so you can marry him).


And/Or was she also afraid of that exact thing happening again this time if she'd stayed and told her about the pregnancy...that she'd offer to step aside, again, so she could do 'the right thing' and marry the man?


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Most importantly, Natalia has not shared any of her Catholic-related issues with Olivia since she told Fr Ray about the relationship. Olivia didn't know Fr Ray disapproved;


That seemed to be true to some extent up until Liv ran into Fr. Ray on the st. and he told her in no uncertain terms that he disapproved strongly when Liv was thanking him initially for something akin to an opposite reaction tho I don't know how she'd gotten that from Nat in the first place. But Olivia did know about his disapproval from that little run-in that left her rather shaken and intended to leave her shame-faced on the streets of Springfield. That was painful to witness.

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All that said, I can't defend the storytelling which made Nat unaware she was pregnant. That's stupid. But if I can find it in myself to forgive that plot device,


I know. It rankles. I can try and sort of defend it...at least to the extent that the actress has to make some sense of motivation at this point by believing that she was repressing any symptoms because it just COULD NOT possibly please god be true, could it? No. She did not want to believe it, she could not believe it, therefore it wasn't so. For me that's a lot less absurd than the evidence of my eyes in hiding her behind the ever increasing objects...at least Liv, if mention had been made of any weight gain, could have mumbled something about more of you to love, or you're gonna have to lay off the cookies and the baking, but, hey, I understand some of us deal with stress with food therapy.

And, again, how much time has actually elapsed since the FoD in soap time or SF time?
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traveller
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G2 landing
Cheers, Ta, Merci, Mikwec, Danke, Domo arigato, Grāsce .... et al

:girlygiggle :clap Thank you abzug ! Whew, maybe now I can sleep and let Natalia get on with trying to figure out what SHE wants, without any outside influence or pressures.

Still a wee part of me would have loved Natalia to tell Olivia she was leaving. Then when I think about what you said in ref to Olivia makes sense. Oh, the angst is just too much.

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She's completely bewildered, and she probably assumes Olivia will take charge and not leave her completely free to make a decision, because that's what Olivia does when Natalia is bewildered and indecisive
Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood ..... Helen Keller

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent .... Eleanor Roosevelt

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abzug
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Jeanna
 
And/Or was she also afraid of that exact thing happening again this time if she'd stayed and told her about the pregnancy...that she'd offer to step aside, again, so she could do 'the right thing' and marry the man?

Yikes, that thought hadn't occurred to me! I like to think Olivia's grown since April too, and wouldn't make this offer, but you never know.

Jeanna
 
That seemed to be true to some extent up until Liv ran into Fr. Ray on the st. and he told her in no uncertain terms that he disapproved strongly when Liv was thanking him initially for something akin to an opposite reaction tho I don't know how she'd gotten that from Nat in the first place. But Olivia did know about his disapproval from that little run-in that left her rather shaken and intended to leave her shame-faced on the streets of Springfield. That was painful to witness.

Totally painful. But what was interesting was that Natalia doesn't know Olivia knows this. Olivia never spoke to Natalia about her conversation with Fr Ray. So we're still left with a situation where Natalia isn't sharing her thoughts and feelings about her religion with Olivia, not in any open way.

traveller
 
Still a wee part of me would have loved Natalia to tell Olivia she was leaving.

But then what kind of soap opera would this be? Couples who love each other communicating openly and honestly? Ridiculous!
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cagey
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Masterpiece work abzug - and I agree with all of it.

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What I liked most was that she didn't disavow her love for Olivia at all. She still loves Olivia. She's been struggling to understand what that means for a while now, and she's had a setback, but not one which has caused her to question whether she loves Olivia, and not one that has convinced her that she shouldn't be with Olivia.


This is key and it is what gives us the groundwork for what happens when she returns.

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She maintained a connection to Father Ray, even though he actively disapproved of her 'lifestyle choices.' Why would she do that? I think Natalia really thought she could be with Olivia AND not give up any of her Catholicism, not really recognizing how much her Catholicism (as embodied by Fr Ray) would undermine the relationship.


What I think is really interestingly subtle here is when she told Fr. Ray that she had been attending a different mass. Okay, who knew Springfield had such a large Catholic congregation that they had 2 masses on Sundays what with sharing the church with the Generic Protestants and all. But, the attending a different service, to me, smacked of just not wanting to see the priest who knew about her potentially sinful state. Which is a metaphor maybe for all the not quite ready to come out business. She's okay with God but she isn't okay with the populace.

And I keep coming back to the Shame thing. Hers over the pregnancy with Rafe -- and please someone tell me why Gus left her? - and then to do it again. God must have it in for Natalia and sex.

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Going to the barbeque with Olivia was the point of no return for Natalia. And I think we can't discount that as a factor for her crazed behavior, running off without a word to Olivia. As much as she had come to terms with her feelings, it probably felt like she was jumping off a cliff, and wasn't sure what was below.


Even without the pregnancy, this is a very crucial point. To go public with their love is sweat inducing, panic inducing, since it implies sex - just like Blake assumed. And that is not something comfortable for Nat to admit to under any circumstance.

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It's unclear to me if Natalia even knows how to be selfish without destroying other people. She's been putting Rafe first for 19 years. This is the first time since her wedding to Gus that Natalia has put herself first.


I think this is the crucial (what again with the crucial?) point about Natalia - everytime in her life she did things for her own pleasure/gains, she got whacked for it. And if I think about it too hard it really hurts me that Olivia loves Natalia because she is the most "nurturing" person Olivia has ever met.


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solitasolano
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glug, glug

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abzug
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cagey
 
What I think is really interestingly subtle here is when she told Fr. Ray that she had been attending a different mass. Okay, who knew Springfield had such a large Catholic congregation that they had 2 masses on Sundays what with sharing the church with the Generic Protestants and all. But, the attending a different service, to me, smacked of just not wanting to see the priest who knew about her potentially sinful state. Which is a metaphor maybe for all the not quite ready to come out business. She's okay with God but she isn't okay with the populace.

That's a really interesting read on the switching masses issue. I hadn't thought about Nat being quite so vulnerable, not wanting to see the reflection of herself, in essence, but that sounds exactly right. What surprised me was that after running into Fr Ray and talking about switching masses, she then had a bunch of occasions to see him again, occasions which she seemingly chose. I mean, why would she invite him over to her house to pick up the cookies? So it's like she tried to drop her priest, and then couldn't. Now the question is, would it have been empowered had she been able to stay away from Fr Ray, or would it have been running away from the conflict between her religion and sexuality, since he's the nexus of that conflict?
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abzug
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Had a brief Olivia thought. So brief, it's not even worth its own post, but if I don't post it I'll forget it. Which I guess indicates how trifling it is.

Anyway, I was wondering why Olivia wasn't more anxious about the coming out party, given that she's been almost as worried as Natalia about people finding out, what they'll think of her etc. But then I realized that Olivia wanted everyone to know that she was worth loving, and that desire FAR outweighed the anxiety of what people would think/say/etc. Which makes Natalia's abandonment even sadder, really, because it wasn't just about being left, but about being left when she had anticipated being publicly loved, something she hasn't had often with men, and hasn't had since Buzz in 2006. Poor Olivia!
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Jeanna
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I said SIT IN THAT CHAIR
Excellent point, Abzug. Today is...more heartbreak of course, but I was thankful they intercut all of that angst with comic relief--Billy Lewis, of all people, just made my day.
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abzug
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You weren't kidding when you said heartbreak! Holy crap! I can't even really start writing about it, because all I'd do is go through each scene and describe it and say "Wasn't that amazing/heartbreaking/awesome?" But this might have been one of Crystal's best-acted episodes, and I say that even in the context of the wedding week, when she was brilliant. I also thought the writing was incredibly psychologically authentic, from the insomnia to the inability to drive. It wasn't scenery chewing over the top storytelling.

ETA: I'd be remiss if I didn't suggest everyone rewatch Olivia's first scene on a high definition television, paying special attention to the section of the scene where she's standing at the door talking to Jane. That brown shirt is remarkably sheer. Yes, call me shallow, I admit it.
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cagey
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abzug
 
That brown shirt is remarkably sheer. Yes, call me shallow, I admit it.

:rofl

Yea, even in the depths of despair, we know where goest your thoughts!

Work colleague, old time GL watcher who is now very mad at me for inspiring her to watch clips from her high school days made this very evil interpretation of the montage at the end of the B BBQ:

Springfield wasn't leaving our girls out - our girls chose to leave Springfield - the happy place. Olivia ran off and Natalia took to off out of town. It only adds to the pod-like sense of the place.

abzug
 
What surprised me was that after running into Fr Ray and talking about switching masses, she then had a bunch of occasions to see him again, occasions which she seemingly chose. I mean, why would she invite him over to her house to pick up the cookies? So it's like she tried to drop her priest, and then couldn't. Now the question is, would it have been empowered had she been able to stay away from Fr Ray, or would it have been running away from the conflict between her religion and sexuality, since he's the nexus of that conflict?


Trying to drop a priest is like trying to get gum off your shoe? I think that might work metaphorically. Who knows if she invited him over or offered to come pick up the damn cookies. He is the most visible aspect of the conflict. He could refuse to give her communion - if she is actually going up to the altar rail, which I really doubt. In which case, he could be giving her the eyeball at least if not a little pastoral slap after services. So, the easy move is, get another priest. But damn if he doesn't keep showing up.


abzug
 
But then I realized that Olivia wanted everyone to know that she was worth loving, and that desire FAR outweighed the anxiety of what people would think/say/etc. Which makes Natalia's abandonment even sadder, really, because it wasn't just about being left, but about being left when she had anticipated being publicly loved, something she hasn't had often with men, and hasn't had since Buzz in 2006. Poor Olivia!


I am not sure I'd go there. I do think that making a public statement that they are together is very important for Olivia because it means they have jumped all the hurdles. But as to whether that public statement is also vindication that she is worth loving - I am not so sure. It's an interesting question: how much Olivia cares any more about proving to the public that she is loved. I had been thinking it was all about her own self that needed that proof. Loved beyond being desired. I think that was expressed with the Josh kiss - she can be desired. But she needs the proof of the loving.

But if we are to posit that the whole near-death aspect of the heart transplant was about Olivia reassessing what is important to her - would seem that what is important is the personal and not the public. She needed to get the public stuff out of the way so she could get personal with Natalia. Because Natalia is all about the public since she is repressing the personal.

At least that is my read for today.
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ekny
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cagey
 
Work colleague, old time GL watcher who is now very mad at me for inspiring her to watch clips from her high school days made this very evil interpretation of the montage at the end of the B BBQ:

Springfield wasn't leaving our girls out - our girls chose to leave Springfield - the happy place.  Olivia ran off and Natalia took to off out of town.  It only adds to the pod-like sense of the place.

A male friend who saw the clip (but has seen nothing of the show beyond the short Olivia/Doris snark scene pre-WoD) was torn around how to read the ambiguous presentation, & noted something similar: "On the one hand, on the surface, Olivia and Natalia are getting what they "deserve." Thus those who cannot see any deeper are not alarmed. On the other, anyone capable of actually paying attention can see that the show is undermining itself. If the show is not right-wing Christian propaganda (in which case it is Evil), then the target audience is a narrow one indeed, it is like a BBC broadcast during World War II to people in Occupied France who do not know that they are actually more suited for resistance than collaboration."

He made a further interesting observation, which is that in a show which often lacks a sense of irony, coming up with ironic interpretations of such a montage can be challenging at best, & at worst of course--possibly misleading.

***

cagey
 
I had been thinking it was all about her own self that needed that proof.  Loved beyond being desired.  I think that was expressed with the Josh kiss - she can be desired. But she needs the proof of the loving. [...] She needed to get the public stuff out of the way so she could get personal with Natalia.  Because Natalia is all about the public since she is repressing the personal.

ITA. Really clearly put.

And can only add today's episode, remarkable sheerness notwithstanding (not that I saw anything standing or otherwise since I don't have the high-def clips yet much less a HD teevee to go with 'em but I appreciate your noble sacrifice, Abzug, as no doubt do we all), was pretty rough. Actually rougher than the BBQ: the opening sequence was far worse than the sobbing. I thought the scripting was adult throughout, & am (perversely) if not 'happy' with the way this is going, thus far, at least on-board with the feelings being portrayed. Wretched though they are. CC did outstanding work here, it was brutal to watch.
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abzug
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This talk about the implications of the bbq montage and the presentation of Otalia within it (and thus the moral message we are getting around Otalia) seems less important to me than the fact that in today's episode Olivia's anguish was intercut with scenes of a bachelor and bachelorette party. It couldn't have been more pointed without it being a wedding. Now, since I hate all things bachelor/bachelorette, I couldn't actually WATCH the non-Olivia scenes, but from seeing bits of them on fast-forward, it seemed to me something was up. Can someone who actually watched the entire episode share their thoughts on whether this was yet another example of lesbian suffering contrasted with hetero bliss, thus preserving the hetero hegemony of the show and our culture and making all the viewers feel safe?

Also, note the time, people, and I live on the east coast. This is the worst it has ever been, and I took an Rx sleeping pill before going to sleep. I did manage to sleep 3-4 hours, but now feel so wide awake....
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cagey
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abzug
 
Can someone who actually watched the entire episode share their thoughts on whether this was yet another example of lesbian suffering contrasted with hetero bliss, thus preserving the hetero hegemony of the show and our culture and making all the viewers feel safe?


Good question. My greatest impression of the scenes is that Olivia is in movement, she is *searching* - at the farmhouse, police station, the church, the farmhouse again. The hetero couple is stuck, if not trapped, by their familial obligations.

Bill and Lizzie start the episode again affirming how happy they are and desire to run away to spend the day at the beach. They are intercepted and taken off to their respective surprise parties. Lizzie's is champagne and silly party games - very hetero, very gag inducing. Bill's is fraught with tension because it includes Alan. For reasons that escape me, Josh insists that the Spauldings are invited, then bails on the party when Alan gets unpleasant, and finally gets James to show up as if for the express purpose of overheating and punching Bill. This causes Billy to punch Alan.

Bill and Lizzie reiterate that they would prefer to be alone together at the beach. So I wouldn't call it hetero bliss being celebrated. It's a set up for the take down to come, since they are so happy and what is there to worry about?

Also, Phillip's presence connects Olivia to the other story. He leaves the party to go to her, leaves her to go deal with James.

Painful as it is, it is a relief to see Olivia in movement, taking up space again after that endless month of "so worth waiting for."
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abzug
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carey
 
Painful as it is, it is a relief to see Olivia in movement, taking up space again after that endless month of "so worth waiting for."

I totally agree. When Olivia wants to get something done, she is breathtaking to watch. And her anguish and rage at her powerlessness at the end of the episode was such a wonderful payoff. I didn't expect her to throw her bag. That was awesome. So primal.

carey
 
My greatest impression of the scenes is that Olivia is in movement, she is *searching* - at the farmhouse, police station, the church, the farmhouse again. The hetero couple is stuck, if not trapped, by their familial obligations.

I like this reading! So in a way it's anti-heterosexuality (or, the hetero institution of marriage!!!) and the way it confines people, rather than enabling them to express and live their love the way they want to. Maybe I'll be able to watch it.
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