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| Otalia - Guiding Light | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 29 2009, 06:54 PM (21,291 Views) | |
| abzug | Jun 7 2009, 09:00 PM Post #16 |
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In love with a prisoner
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And Emma. Who, I just recalled, said she ALSO wanted to play catch in the episode you're discussing, and Natalia and Olivia looked at her like she was a bit deranged. So perhaps the show is trying to invade that male-only space which keeps infringing on Otalia and their FoL.
That would be so awesome, I'm tempted to write the writers and tell them to do it. Although, interestingly, it's the sort of thing Doris did during the non-wedding, isn't it? So we know they have gay allies, even if they are closeted and politically motivated. That's more than other shows have done.
I don't totally agree with you here. The men do invade the story, but I think we're supposed to feel that they are out of place, that they don't belong. When Olivia offers to leave, we're supposed to bristle a bit: she's being too conciliatory, not claiming the territory which we know is already hers. There are so many examples of men showing up at the farmhouse and interrupting, where the scenes are written such that we are desperate for them to leave. So I don't think the relationship is making space for the men. In fact, when the relationship tries to do this (for example, with Rafe) the relationship suffers, and it's a bad thing. So I think they're actually problemetizing the male presence, not accepting it. Speaking of the framing you mention, the women are still in the forefront of the shot, and from that point of view, it seems they are surveying their domain, in control of the men that they are allowing to be there.
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| ekny | Jun 7 2009, 09:51 PM Post #17 |
In love with a prisoner
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I can see where you're coming from, and in another genre would go for it more readily, cause your points are very good. It's the fact that the characters are desexualized that's getting in the way. (Before I get flamed to death, yes of course I get the hotness and the schmoop. And the genre's structural convention: that it can take up to two years for a supercouple to be born. We've essentially be robbed of one of those years.) And I understand this may well be the only way the writers for this s/l can clear a path to try to ensure maximum audience backing for this story. But the dynamic continues to feel off-balance. It may also be that only when the story's completed (or the soap is taken off-air, and yes again, CBS does suck hairy moose) that we (or I, anyway) can look back with a greater sense of ease about this progression.The specific instances you cite, frex, are excellent and ITA with your observations about how they play out: Olivia has nothing to apologize for, and of course Belongs at the farmhouse and N's side. The interrupting thing, infuriatingly soapy as it is, also works, in each individual instance, as you suggested. At every stage of this relationship (and for all I know, the history of this entire show and of soaps in general), women go to men for advice, for the heart-to-hearts they can't have with their male partners in real life: in Guiding Light women seek out men for counsel, approval, help solving problems; and Christian guidance. Before their relationship became a (romantic) issue, Nat sought out Frank for advice about living with Olivia, just to cite one minor instance. (Frank, the supposed Good Man, continually undermines Olivia in those scenes). During the course of her coming to awareness of her feelings for Natalia [look at how elaborately I have to work the syntax to avoid saying: 'coming out to herself'], Olivia seeks out just about every man in Springfield to discuss her feelings with. (Almost all of whom she's already slept with.) They all are neutral or approving. This is an important part of the story's progression, it's not just that they're obstacles--not at all. Olivia insists she "doesn't need" her ex-husband's approval of her lifestyle (as euphemized in that exchange)--but seeks him out specifically to tell him. She does need it, and not only to try to find out if he'll try to take Emma from her because of it. She kisses Bill to ascertain in part that she's still attractive to men, but of course Bill (being another Good Man) doesn't go for it, and asks her what's the deal instead. More confession. Olivia does discuss her feelings with several other female characters--but their advice is always dismissed out of hand (with the exception of Doris, as discussed). The pair's rise to supercoupledom seems to make logical sense to longtime soap viewers--they have to get all their ducks in a row before they can The show's paternalism is hard to crack in some ways because it directly conflicts with the lesbian storyline even as it enables it: both of which are inherently problematic since lesbian desire requires no arbitration by men--and certainly not in the way the men in Guiding Light are put forth as savants of Goodness, wisdom, and mouthpieces for the show's agenda, however benign. It's of a piece with the scriptwriters presentation, which suggests they want to have their cake and eat it too: to run a storyline about a lesbian romance without calling it lesbian. This can only work if the storyline goes so far... but the storyline wants to go farther. As a romance--it has to. At which point they can call it what they want, but the audience this is directed at will see what they see. In order to have the label-less storyline play out successfully, our couple needs to become accepted by the other characters who make up the show's fabric and to be integrated into the life of the town as a whole. (At which point their sexuality will, again, effectively have become as invisible as it is... oh. Well, now.) It's an impossible problem to solve: they deserve credit for trying, and full props for the degree to which they've already succeeded. But in some very basic ways, they tied their own hands before even starting. |
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| abzug | Jun 8 2009, 03:58 PM Post #18 |
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In love with a prisoner
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Very thought-provoking post. And I think in the end you're right that we won't truly be able to assess these issues until the story plays out in its entirety (which, thanks to CBS, won't be all that much longer).
It would be interesting to detail every one of their scenes and count which had men in them and which didn't. My general sense is that they have a ton of scenes just the two of them, or with the two of them and Emma. So I'm not going to concede this point just yet. :-)
OK, now, wait a second here. I'm no expert on soaps (far from it), but from what I've read, Guiding Light is far more pro-woman than any of the other soaps. Their female characters are strong and complex and flawed, and aren't just about being sexual objects, starting from Reva. Holly, Olivia, Dinah--all these women are the opposite of fading violets, and certainly don't subordinate themselves to men. (Well, from time to time they might, but not as a general rule.) They have their own wishes and desires, are willing to be brash and assertive, and to take charge of their own destinies. So I don't really see the men in Guiding Light in the way you describe. If we're speaking specifically about Olivia confessing her feelings for Natalia to Bill and then Jeffrey, really it was only Jeffrey she's used as any sort of confidant. And I never felt like she was looking to any of the guys to tell her it was ok; in fact, even though they all told her it was ok, that didn't seem to really reassure her, or make her more comfortable with the idea. Instead, I feel like the men were sounding boards: Olivia needs to process things out loud, externally, and the people she has relationships with are men, so that's who she's processing with. It's a contrast with Natalia's internal processing (she "prays on" everything, right?). Speaking of Natalia and prayer, that's perhaps the one area of paternalism I'm not comfortable with, but that probably comes down to my lack of comfort with a male god, and proscriptive religions. In a way, though, Natalia coming to the conclusion that God wants her to be happy, and her deciding for herself that what she feels for Olivia is good and beautiful, is a way in which the storyline totally undermines religious paternalism. Natalia is overruling a priest and the Catholic Church's interpretation of the bible, instead deciding she herself is personally qualified to come to her own conclusions on this issue. That's pretty empowered!
But that's already happened, hasn't it? I mean, audiences are already seeing what they see, and calling it what they call it. And the lack of labels hasn't obstructed the development of the story, as far as I can tell. Many of the obstacles these two have dealt with are specifically gay, whether anyone uses the word or not. And it's not like the word "lesbian" or related phrases ("coming out" etc) have been totally avoided. They've been used probably just the right amount, for where these characters are at. So I don't think the labellessness is what's holding up the story from progressing. And if these two start making out every episode this week, I think the writers can still continue not-labelling the story. So I guess what I'm saying, to be a bit more concise, is that I don't see any connection or causation or even correlation between the use of labels and the depiction of open sexual activity.
Totally. Too bad there's not a lot of time left, eh? But of course this could be accomplished in lovely soapy fashion by Natalia, returning after JL's maternity leave, showing up at some Springfield social event, Olivia seeing her and sweeping her into her arms and kissing her right there in front of everyone. Then we'd have a couple more months where they could be accepted as part of the community. :-) |
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| cagey | Jun 9 2009, 01:21 AM Post #19 |
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G3 Curtain and Duvet!
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Hi there - A few thoughts -- Something Old, Something New
What strikes me about these two scenes is that in the first Olivia is giving Natalia a gift; a gift that represents part of herself, Olivia, which she wants Natalia to take with her into the marriage. It is loving and poignant but it is meant to be a positive statement to letting go. At Gus' grave, Olivia is bereft and bent on sacrifice. She uses the same language to exile herself by being none of those things - borrowed, blue, old, new, that Natalia can take into a happy marriage.
I am working on a new theory: there are three characters - Olivia, Natalia and Otalia. What we see in the exchange with Greg and later when the girls are watching the boys play pitcher and catcher (and where is Emma who wanted to play ball at this point? Off with the non-cows? Excuse me) what we see is not a triangle but a binary - Otalia consults with Greg. Otalia watches Frank and Rafe. There's probably a case that could be made about how close they stand when they are operating as Otalia - I could even possibly argue in favor of one leaning in towards the other. But what we see is Greg from the POV of Otalia, what what Greg sees is a single entity responding to him. The significance of Otalia: this is when the 2 women are operating in sync and as a couple. Frank admitted that he sees and understands that, so I could argue that his telling Olivia she need not go is, in fact, a further admission that she belongs in Otaliaspace and he is just in for a quick visit. Furthermore, when they are off on their own, as Olivia and Natalia, they are insecure and looking for a way to get back together. Prior to their mutual declarations, the two women were (unconsicously?) moving towards becoming Otalia - it has been evident in many of their interactions and body language with Mrs. Jennings and Doris. Have they done their doubles act with men other than Frank? Otalia the persona is different from the two women merely being in the same scene at the same time. As Olivia and Natalia move to become Otalia they are often confronted with interruptions, which have been male but have also been female. The interruption is a break in progress; no interruption is forward movement - that is I presume standard soap opera dramatic progression. This does not particularly strike me as Paternalism. I agree with abzug that GL's female characters are very strong. The lack of female friends on the part of these two is problematic but also part of wherein they find their mutual attraction. Neither has had a close female friend until they found each other. Neither of them is known for being deferential to their menfolk - but they also turn to the only allies they have to make sense of their burgeoning feelings. The fact that they are their own best friends emphasizes the bubble in which this relationship is developing. I completely agree with ekny that they need to enter the larger society as a defined couple. Rather than paternalism, I would call what bothers me about the inherent values of the show is its heterosexual absolutism. The umpty year old foundation of the soap was upon the marital problems of the Bauers and the show still revolves around an axis of male/female romantic relationships. The second axis is "family" as defined by an ever widening array of children. Most couples only stay together long enough to breed once. Adoption is rampant. Step-siblings abound. Parent/child conflicts are huge and it seems driven mostly because the parents can't pay enough attention to the children since they are constantly finding another mate. Self absorbed rutting - certainly male ![]()
I have to completely disagree with this description of the men on GL. Nope, none of them. Really, the sad part is Frank probably is the only character as for briefly as I have watched who remotely seems to have a moral compass. That said, I understand your point, I just think that the format tends to tarnish everyone and leave no one holding the holiness bag. The official positive spin on this is that the characters are all seeking Real Love. If Otalia does actually come out as a same sex, positive, happy couple focussed on the well being of their children, it will be a refreshing if not revolutionary end for the ending of the GL story.
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| Jeanna | Jun 9 2009, 06:23 PM Post #20 |
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I said SIT IN THAT CHAIR
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Oh....so this is where this discussion ended up. <G> I'm sure you could have started a thread on the BPD...though it would have been buried in short order most likely. You could ask for a Pinned thread. Anyway...I've enjoyed reading this discussion. Especially liked this from Cagey:
And I do have hopes that will be the final outcome. But I'm in my happy day of denial place today. I'll just go bake some cookies, shall I? I'd love to contribute more substantially to this discussion, but my mind won't let me. Atrophy, you know. But, please continue. You'll have an avid reader in me, at least. |
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H&N Music Vid by me and ekny Something To Talk About YouTube My BG Music Vids On YouTube My vids You Tube removed Click Here OR HERE BAM for Beginners BAM Channel | |
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| abzug | Jun 9 2009, 06:53 PM Post #21 |
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In love with a prisoner
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I like this interpretation of the staging of these scenes, and having looked at some screenshots, I really see what you describe, how they are filmed as a single unit, and we're looking at things from their point of view. I think this is also why we accept them as a couple, even without the sexual component. It's like the camera gives them a couple's authority and centrality, or something. (I'm just really reiterating what you already said--just my mind processing.)
And if you did argue this, I'd agree with you. ![]()
What about a number of times when they visited Rafe in jail? In particular when they rush out of Emma's My Two Mommies presentation because Rafe is in the infirmary, but starting as early as September 2008, Olivia accompanied Natalia to visit Rafe, so there was some preliminary buildup to their coupledom in relation to Rafe.
This emphasis on the search for "Real Love" is one of the things I really like about GL. I have no idea what their theme song used to be, but the new one (how long have they been using it?) makes sure the audience is aware of the show's pro-love agenda. Since I've only experienced the show in the context of Otalia, I don't see the heterosexist aspect. The Otalia storyline has been so much about a broadening definition of family, and a broadening perspective on who can be a potential sexual object. The fact that we have two women who have never had any same-sex experiences or feelings before hammers that point even further than if they had introduced a lesbian character and had her fall for a straight woman (a la Bad Girls). If 'only love can save the world' then the show has an extremely open, progressive perspective on what that love can be, and who can love who. Perhaps it didn't have that perspective before, but it's had it since early 2008, and that perspective has been woven into the worldview of the show (even if Otalia are in a bubble right now). One other thought--I know there are viewers who are kind of obsessed with this idea of Olivia and Natalia getting married or having some kind of ceremony. I just don't see the show as making that important. In so many ways, they've been showing us that these two are already partnered with each other. They don't need a formal ceremony, because it's just there. That's why we saw Olivia in a dark suit next to Natalia trying on wedding dresses. Or why at the wedding they faced each other with Doris standing between them, as if Doris was going to marry the two of them, rather than Natalia and Frank. We've seen them co-parenting again and again, and Emma's teacher immediately accepted them as a bonafide couple, equal parents to Emma, no questions asked. And this in the context of Olivia's history, which has been completely marriage/wedding-obsessed. I mean, we're talking about a woman who wanted a fake wedding to Gus before she died, that's how important the wedding ceremony was to her. And similarly, with Natalia, who has said again and again how sacred marriage is to her. Perhaps the storytelling will change and we'll start seeing these two talk about wanting to marry each other. But as of right now, I only see them talking about being together as life partners, without any need for any ceremony to make it official. |
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| ekny | Jun 9 2009, 07:08 PM Post #22 |
In love with a prisoner
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I do agree that the emphasis is on being a couple & not marriage; I'm not seeing anything special abt marriage in the text. (As an aside, am puzzled by the fact that so many lesbians & gay men seem to accept marriage as an entity/institution that requires little questioning or inquiry.) Similarly, the idea that somehow Natalia is putting off sex with Olivia until they are living together, somehow 'engaged' or so totally official that they might as well be married--have every T crossed & I dotted, iow--makes no sense to me. (Perhaps it's a rationale for justifying the idea of marriage, or simply a way to explain N's behavior thus far regarding the kissage.) Regardless, it's about a proscription against premarital sex for heterosexuals. It is *completely* irrelevant in every way for women. And given how far Natalia has already gone in terms of reinterpreting her relationship to the Church, I see no reason why she wouldn't be perfectly capable of disposing of such a minor injunction in the appropriate manner. |
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| cagey | Jun 9 2009, 11:06 PM Post #23 |
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G3 Curtain and Duvet!
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First off, I’ve got to credit ek as being my source for the initial observations about the blocking and framing of Otalia as a couple.
One of the ludicrous aspects of soap writing is the endless stream of weddings. Once upon a time I suppose it was inevitable since the notion of out-of-wedlock sexual shenanigans would not have been acceptable. Why it continues on today eludes me, but it is part of the formula and that is how the game is played, I guess. A wedding is not just a stamp of legitimacy in the eyes of the nebulous Christian-lite soap God, but also signifies a permanence of commitment. That the two parties being married are likely to stray within months if not days of the ceremony seems not to erode the meaning of the occasion. A true blessing to come out of the cancellation is that, regardless where these two end up in the story line, we will not have to endure years of their true love being tested by temptations in the form of the rest of the residents of Springfield. So, I think long time soap viewers are expecting (and demanding) to see a wedding as evidence of the legitimacy of this couple, as a demonstration of their commitment to each other and as proof that GL is treating Otalia the same way it would treat any heterosexual couple. The control couple for this test is Bill and Lizzie: if they get married and Otalia only gets as far as holding hands in front of the Jesus on Wheels, then, the feeling is: we was robbed.
Didn’t they say something sort of along the lines of wanting to create a family together? I can’t recall but it seems there was some talk that implied Lifetime Commitment. Not quite the same thing, but pretty damn close. I think it was about why Olivia couldn’t move back into the Farmhouse just yet. That said, I have no interest in seeing a wedding, commitment ceremony or any other solemnity in the church.
I completely agree. The notion of no-sex-until-marriage Natalia is obviously not how she has behaved with the two men in her life and secondly not a requirement for story lines these days. Again, Bill and Lizzie have been especially busy (bizzie busy) sexually. All Natalia has said was that she takes the implications of being with Olivia very seriously – and I didn’t get the impression she meant that in a will go-to-hell-for it sort of seriousness. This is one of the cases where reading the text as it is makes far more sense than participating in the endless speculation to create the “soap opera of the mind”. |
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| abzug | Jun 10 2009, 03:00 PM Post #24 |
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In love with a prisoner
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I'm really NOT involved in the soap world in any way, so I was interested to know where this sense of the expectations of longtime soap viewers comes from? Is it from postings in an online forum? Articles in one of the soap mags? Discussions with people? I know I've seen some folks on certain boards talk about how important it is that these two get "married", but I haven't gotten the sense that the majority of viewers feel that way. The lack of fairness complaints seem to be around physical affection right now. The first one I heard bring up any sort of wedding kinda thing was Jessica Leccia in the interview she did for the BPD Podcast, and that seemed more out of not being able to think of something which topped Crystal Chappell's idea that Olivia would have wanted to cook a meal for Natalia at the FoL. Speaking for me, personally, I would feel unsatisfied if they didn't move back in together before September 18. And if they didn't have some semblance of a love scene before then.
Yeah, this obviously wouldn't seem like a fair deal to me either. ![]()
I don't recall an exact scene, but when you use the word "create" are you implying making new babies? Or are you implying a more Brady Bunch-like melding of two families into a merged one? Because I've gotten the latter from them on many occasions, but never the former. Definitely lifetime commitment talk, for sure, but that doesn't mean wedding to me. Another thought: for Catholics, isn't wedding a sacrament? With a very specific definition? I don't think Natalia would be thinking that this is something open to her and Olivia. Her thinking hasn't gotten that far yet. OK, can I speak on more superficial matters and rave about how sexy Crystal Chappell looks with brown hair? |
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| marymartin | Jun 10 2009, 03:23 PM Post #25 |
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The ghost of Larkhall!
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Just to jump in here for a minute. I love the thoughtful analysis of how this story is being presented from a broader, societal perspective. However, I don't think the writers are writing it with that solely in mind. If you only know about Guiding Light from watching the Otalia story on YouTube or on CBS, you may not fully appreciate the characters involved. Olivia has been a self-destructive, selfish, and sometimes mean, character since she came on canvas in 1999. Her role was to come between the 'rooting couple' as a troublemaker that the audience could root against. Crystal Chappell has said that it was very hard to keep the character likable and that she suggested that the character should be written off because she thought Olivia had been written into a corner. Natalia, is this naive, sweet, sexually inexperienced (as far as we know, she's been with two men in her life -- high school sweetheard Gus, Rafe's dad, and "good man Frank") character whose back story is pretty limited. The most we know about her is that she pined for Gus her entire life which was wrapped up in her faith and her son. So, keeping this in mind, the writers are presenting this story how they believe the characters would behave in a situation where two formerly 'straight' women (even though they have avoided labels at all cost) find themselves in love with each other. To quote Natalia "It's new and it's different and it's scary." They also have both been written as devoted mothers who will sacrifice everything for their children. This is a beat that hasn't been present in any similar storyline that I am familiar with --- two moms who want to be together but have to take into consideration what that means for their kids too. Olivia, in July, talking to Dinah said that if she was ever lucky enough to fall in love again she would do everything differently than she had ever done before. This love story has been written primarily, to show Olivia's growth as a character and to reform her into a heroine. It has been slow to develop, and in the great tradition of the old days of soap writing, it is moving at a glacial pace. Olivia doesn't want to rush Natalia and blow it. Natalia's character usually lets others take the lead until she gets pushed into a corner. Case in point -- going after Olivia when she told her she should just walk away after their mutual love confessions during the non-wedding. As some one pointed out on the Big Purple Dreams Board (Otalia fan site with almost 5,000 members), the classic love stories all have these things in common: 1) Admission of love 2) First kiss 3) First sex 4) Break up/Obstacle 5) Reconciliation There is a sixth thing but I can't remember it. Anyway, I fully expect to see all of the above with these characters once Jessica Leccia (Natalia) returns from her maternity leave. Right now the baby blimp (too big to call her a bump anymore) just doesn't cut it for any kind of love scene and they're going to write the character out for a month. Also, what I keep telling myself when I get frustrated is that this is a soap. If GL had not been cancelled by CBS, I actually think some of what we are seeing now onscreen would have been dragged out even more. I fully expect kisses and at least one love scene before September 18th. There is a huge fan base out there that has devoted a lot of time to saving the show and the writers should reward us, not slap us in the face with a cop out at the end. |
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| abzug | Jun 11 2009, 01:05 AM Post #26 |
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In love with a prisoner
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Thanks marymartin! I think one of the things that is so great about this storyline is that it works on the psychological level as well as the broader socio-political level. Just as the storyline shows the growth and progression of these two characters and their relationship, in the context of other examples of mass media depictions of lesbians, the storyline shows the growth and progression of our society and its take on gay people. I've found both perspectives to be equally interesting when it comes to Otalia. The soap romantic storyline conventions I'm not totally sure how to deal with. Because as a non-soap viewer, they're definitely helpful to me in giving me context. But isn't the sign of successful storytelling that the story is told successfully? Without any additional information about how stories are normally told? This isn't a rhetorical question, exactly--it's something I've been wondering about. I mean, this soap romantic storyline convention arose, presumably, because it was the way soap writers found they could string viewers on the most effectively. The writers need to cultivate loyalty, so they can't frustrate viewers too much. But nor can they give up too much at any one time, given that they need to fill up five hours a week of storytelling. The GL writers presumably have the same objectives in how they're writing the Otalia storyline. Either that or the soap genre really IS dead, because if its storytelling conventions are THAT entrenched that everything follows the same trajectory than no wonder generations of viewers are tuning out. I'm just musing out loud here, but I guess what I'm saying is, I can forgive how long it is taking Olivia and Natalia to kiss, or to make love (well, I can forgive the latter more than the former), but the writers need to delay the physical aspect of the relationship in ways which are organic to the characters, otherwise I'm going to feel like they're just following the tired soap conventions, rather than writing a romantic storyline for these two women in such a way that drags out the tension and anticipation as long as possible. PS I am a member over at BPD, but as far as I can tell, there isn't really any analytic discussion of the show. Plus, it's a bit overwhelming for me, since I can't visit very often, so I feel like I can't keep up.
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| cagey | Jun 11 2009, 03:05 AM Post #27 |
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G3 Curtain and Duvet!
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Yes thanks marymartin! Have you been a long time watcher of GL? I think those of us who having only recently tuned in could use an old hand about to help explain things. Do you think Olivia and Natalia are the same people they were a year ago? I think that part of the story line is that they both have rejected their pasts and are starting fresh.
The board upon which I lurk and you post, which is not purple, has had flurries of discussion regarding the requirements of Catholic rite and expectation regarding marriage, sexual relations, etc. Out of that I get the sense that people who are committed viewers of soap expect a wedding, since it is usually the culmination of the romance. Not to have an Otalia wedding, in some form, would be slighting their coupledom from the viewers perspective, hence all the slightly strange discussion of pre-marital Otalia sex, engagements and weddings. Roman Catholic rite, as I understand it, not being roman or catholic, is that it is a sacrament between a man and a woman. This is why all those catholic countries, like Spain or Belgium, have no problem legalizing same sex civil marriage. I agree that moving in together is enough for me to call it a done deal!
Certainly "create" as blending, not creating more babies. But also, and this is something I've been pondering about - creating another Family within the world of Springfield. Family, and all that it implies, is the heart of the GL story, so if Otalia is going to fit into this landscape, they must be a Family. Olivia has been floating between the Spauldings and the Lewises without having a home to call her own. Same for Natalia between with Coopers and the Spauldings.
Absolutely. As I have been following this story (curse all of you who brought this upon us :D) I've become very interested in soap opera structure and storytelling. I agree that a story well told works on it's own. But with soap operas, the length of time, the exposure one has to the story affects one's perception of what is happening. This means that we are all experiencing the story on different levels. Thanks to all the clips on YouTube, you and I can go back and visit - in an out of context way - bits of Olivia's past, or the Otlalia prequel, but we are not experiencing the same thing that long time viewers are, who saw it day by day over years.
Why yes you can. I am so happy to see the brown. All I can say is maybe the bleaching was about the heart, but it really did not serve her well |
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| marymartin | Jun 11 2009, 02:41 PM Post #28 |
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The ghost of Larkhall!
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I am a long time GL viewer who had stopped watching the show but returned to full time viewing last fall. The soap genre for the most part has turned into unwatchable tv IMO -- stories that move at the speed of light, instant couples, stupid plots. With Otalia, and it looks like now with their other storylines, the GL writers have returned to the old school soap genre of slow building romance. I think the writing overall is much better than most of the soaps on the air even though at the moment, it seems to be in a holding pattern between story arcs. In the 'olden days' of soap, they used to take their time building a supercouple, one that the audience would root for and get invested in. This couple often faced obstacles for years before finally getting together. I can't truly think of any super couple in the last 20 years or so, but the classic one is Luke and Laura from General Hospital. I actually believe that if GL had not been cancelled by CBS, the obstacles for Otalia would have been drawn out even more than they are. Probably, Jessica's maternity leave would have been much longer and maybe Natalia and Frank's roll in the sack would have resulted in a pregnancy. This is standard soap drama for super couples. Agnes Nixon did it with Phillip/Tara/Chuck on All My Children. It was a device between Betsy and Steve on As The World Turns. I am getting frustrated at the lack of movement with Otalia at the moment. It seems like they've kind of stalled in the last three weeks, but I am chalking some of that up to Jessica Leccia's pregnancy. As much as I want to see some love scenes, I suspect that they will be much more memorable when one of the participants isn't about to give birth at any moment. I just hope that whatever device is used to send Natalia off canvas for a month is resolved as quickly as possible when she returns. |
| "Thomas is gorgeous. He's everything you would want in a man. But I want a woman." | |
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| ekny | Jun 11 2009, 03:50 PM Post #29 |
In love with a prisoner
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Well, perhaps it's odd hearing it from me, but--I'm not especially frustrated at the moment; maybe I jumped some kind of hurdle after the GoL scene. A week or two of that nonsense (no kissing after major declarations and a busted wedding? yeah. right.) & I reoriented myself to soap-land & stopped fussing because obviously, these characters live on a different planet. Also my expectations are low anyway. But mainly, I think the issues around how their sexuality is represented are off to the side of the show's own agenda. (And that, of course, no matter who they're trying to please, it'll never please all the folks. They kiss, we want more kissage; then some kind of sex scenes with a lot of artful draping &... what, calf-massages? I could give it a miss, myself.) I have reservations about GL's maintext, its agenda. They're not about to change, and neither is the show. Religion/faith/Christianity :: Family/community --that's the matrix that defines GL. The challenge the scriptwriters have picked up is to integrate a major gay s/l into that text in a way that is consonant with the twin pillars of Faith & Family holding up the house of Guiding Light, the show with religion built right into its name. In terms of what has been delivered, finding a way to present this relationship within that very limited, highly structured framework (and again within the even more rigid genre of soaps), the scriptwriting has been remarkably consistent. They haven't dropped any major stitches yet. So... I see no reason they will: they haven't given me cause. That's different than, say, the tacit reintegration of Frank into the alternative family framework Otalia was trying to create for itself. That's a tension I'm not happy with. But Josh--meh. If I thought the business with Josh was anything other than what Cagey suggested in an email was their usual soapy summer shtick, I'd be a bit irked, but--Olivia's crawling out of her skin, men are what she knows. She's still a straight girl in love with another straight girl. So right now it's trashy beach reads, stoopid music, high-octane flirtation with J. (N & O's scenes only suffered by comparison), a very straight kiss with him... and a vibrator. Which I have to give them credit for, surely that's another minor soap first? (Again, reality-wise... I'm not quite sold on this being new territory for Olivia. I mean really yo.) As for JL's pregnancy--it is no more, she just gave birth. Honestly, short of dropping it in the fields & continuing to pull potatoes or whatever, I can't imagine how she could have worked any longer into that pregnancy. So depending how her recovery goes & what kind of time she wants to spend with her child, they've probably filmed enough ahead they're all set. I think the real delay is, until they absolutely have to commit to one of two possible directions for scripting (show is picked up; show is not picked up), they're putting it off. Thus the treading water. |
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| cagey | Jun 12 2009, 02:47 AM Post #30 |
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G3 Curtain and Duvet!
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Thank you thank you marymartin. Since I've been watching the Otalia thing I have been flashing back on my high school soap watching days and could not remember that initial AMC story line, beyond there being a Phil (and a new Phil after he came back from Vietnam) and of course Erica. The scary part is now that you have mentioned the names, it is flooding back in - so maybe I shouldn't thank you too much. ![]() I prefer to think that if GL were not cancelled, Natalia would have gone through with the wedding and several months of angst would have happened as all parties concerned came to know it was a mistake.
This is the high wire act, innit? To see if the writers and actors can actually produce a lesbian sl within the confines of Soap? Today Frank said that things were finally calming down "in that family" - being the Riveras, which was forshadowing the encounter between Olivia and Natalia saying that they want to be more than just friends who love each other. I don't have, in a generic sense, a problem with a focus on family and community. A positive resolution ( I hate to say ending) to the Otalia story is the creation of a new family in Springfield. It would both reinforce the dominant paradigm of Faith and Family (ick) , but also subvert it. |
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8:46 AM Jul 11