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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 29 2009, 06:54 PM (21,273 Views) | |
| abzug | Jul 8 2009, 12:14 PM Post #286 |
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In love with a prisoner
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What could they have possibly learned when they've surrounded themselves by yes-men for decades? These aren't people interested in self-awareness, psychological evolution, or how 'regular' people perceive and interpret things. I am SO over this whole circus (wasn't a fan, so perhaps I'm not being sympathetic to those who were). |
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| solitasolano | Jul 8 2009, 06:01 PM Post #287 |
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Please indulge me as I finally jump in now that I've consumed the kool aid. I need to post on a bunch of general issues before I can join the flow of the ongoing discussion. So like I said please indulge and read. I haven't read the last couple of days of comments so please excuse. Sorry to interrupt the flow. Here goes: Boundaries Natalia needs some boundaries -- she’s so concerned about everyone else, whether that is hurting them, or making everyone else feel better, or worrying about what people will say. She needs some boundaries, especially from this GOD thing. That’s like her last obstacle to being together with Olivia, well that and the sex thing. All men in her life question and disapprove of her choices and challenge Natalia; Frank, Rafe (grow up already), the priest, and most importantly, the invisible guy in the sky with the white beard, aka. GOD. Seems like Natalia has some intimacy issues. As a newbie who’s been catching up on the big purple dream all at once here, to me, Natalia never appears to make any movement towards physical intimacy or to even touch with her intended. You are my family. You are everything to me, Nat says to Olivia. Natalia is more invested in the “family” part of the relationship than the one on one adult relationship. The Choice Thing Good man vs, Best Friend. I’m assuming the long play out of this theme by the show is directed towards the majority demographic of this soap opera. Not us lezs. You know, the group that buys laundry detergent, stop remover, rheumatoid arthritis meds, lipitor, the ads on during the show, aimed at all those women, straight women, who don’t get it. Guess the writers are trying to play out all the possibilities, that instead of being in a lesbian relationship, all a woman needs is a “good man”, play that over and over to make the point that Natalia chooses Olivia over ‘good man’, and maybe it will get though to peoples that this is what happens. It’s the politics of identity vs politics of desire. Think someone already mentioned this. Do they, does she, say I’m a lesbian or does she say I want you? The next step, now that Natalia has chosen Olivia is to have goodman ask the “Are you the right person for Natalia. Not because you’re a woman, but because of who you are.” The Go Between Blake as go-between. First she’s the go between audience and the story line asking the questions that no one else will: could you be pregnant? does this mean you and Olivia haven’t had sex? how do you know (the relationship is right for you if you haven’t had sex)? Blake also comments on the God problem echoing for all of us who are tried of being hit over the head with it; “your relationship with god is very important, I get that…..no, I don’t get that actually.” Couldn’t have said it better myself. Then Blake is the literal go between for Olivia and Natalia the Runaway, telling Olivia Nat doesn’t want to talk to her, don’t call her, she’ll call you….(are we assuming or do we know that Blake drove Nat to the nunnery. Is this correct? I missed that part). Get Thee to a Nunnery Natalie is definitely going to come back pregnant. One does not go to a religious retreat, a nunnery in particular and decide to end a pregnancy. Natalia was making progress, albeit slowly (is this where the Christian Tortoise nickname comes from?) coming to terms with her new reality, being in a relationship, in love with a woman. The pregnancy Natalia wasn’t prepared for. All her other issues, intimacy, Rafe, god, religion, what are we, what will we tell everyone, etc…those issues can all be put off indefinitely, but being pregnant cannot. The story writers have made this plodding Nat’s coping mechanism; it will happen, just not yet (it being a full on adult intimate relationship), but a pregnancy, no, that timer is going to go off. Natalia has made progress working towards a relationship with Olivia. She has stood up to Father Ray, Rafe, Frank, and God’s still important to her and means her to love, but pregnancy, there’s no putting that off. Also, there’s no possibility of ending it. On doesn’t run off to a nunnery, a Catholic retreat to end a pregnancy. She’ll definitely come back pregnant. Purple Dreams Olivia has been noticeably changed by the relationship over time. Realizing her love for Natalia and experiencing it has soften her character. Natalia has yet to be significantly changed. When she does, the relationship can move on. Olivia is so there with the relationship. She says to Doris, “… and now I can’t imagine my life without her. When we’re together, it’s like things are how they’re supposed to be and I have never felt this way with anyone else! Natalie has yet to get to this place. Olivia apologizes to Natalia all the time and never the other way around. A good argument between the two seems to historically move their relationship along…a good argument upon Nat’s return will move them forward, only this time Nat will apologize. It’s Olivia who has delivered the terms of endearment, even if half of them are in jest (haranguing the two mommies in the restaurant way back). When Nat can utter one, it will be a sign that the character has progressed. Natalia needs to be visibly changed by the relationship also, then they can move on. |
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| solitasolano | Jul 8 2009, 06:21 PM Post #288 |
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Whoops, sorry about the double post...the work computer was multitasking downloading the next version of current project... So as to not let the post be dead space...let me add to the accolades being bestowed upon Chappell's Monday performance, only to show where my motivation for koolaid induced youtube consumption lies let me quote from Merriam Webster: Synonyms for sultry as in sensuous (as opposed to hot and humid): desirable, exotic, hot, passionate, seductive, sexy, steamy, voluptuous, vixenish Any questions? |
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| Jeanna | Jul 8 2009, 08:17 PM Post #289 |
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I said SIT IN THAT CHAIR
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OMG, yes. It was amazing in its own right. That's exactly what I said! It was a master class taken in total with CC's work the previous day as a sort of Acting: what to do/what NOT to do! KZ should be thanking her lucky stars including Mich. Jackson (I totally agree with you, Abzug, about the circus) that her "Emmy Reel" material was pre-empted yesterday, esp. coming a day after such brilliant work by her co-star. Much too easy to contrast and compare in that regard. I felt for Olivia, deeply. I laughed at Reva in her feigned distress.
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H&N Music Vid by me and ekny Something To Talk About YouTube My BG Music Vids On YouTube My vids You Tube removed Click Here OR HERE BAM for Beginners BAM Channel | |
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| abzug | Jul 8 2009, 09:24 PM Post #290 |
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In love with a prisoner
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Awesome post, solitasolano, especially because unlike the rest of us you can see the forrest for the trees. I'm so stuck in the weeds with this storyline right now, I don't know if I'm coming or going.
True, in general, but I'd give Nat a little more credit for some of her flirty statements and loving comments in the last few weeks. From the scenes outside the FoL right before Rafe finds out, to the little flirty comment about Olivia being able to separate her professional life from her love life, Nat has been taking steps away from the "family" framework and towards the "lover" framework. Just really really slowly. Tortoise-paced. ![]()
Yes, she did, that's why Nat's car is still at the farmhouse, which is what freaked Olivia out in yesterday's episode. If her car was there, but she wasn't, then where was she? That would be panic-inducing for sure.
Yes, someone on Television Without Pity made it up, and it has stuck, because it's so spot-on, and also fun.
OMG, I got SO excited when I read this, because it actually made the whole iPhone countdown thing meaningful, on a metaphorical level. She could have just been looking at her watch, or whatever, but I'd give the writers credit for emphasizing the symbolism you point out. Which I totally hadn't noticed, so thank you!
Again, I'd give Nat a bit more credit on this. She's been much more verbally explicit in her affection in the last month or so, even though she's still probably a bit behind Olivia. There's no question it doesn't come as easily to her, starting from the wedding, when Olivia said "I'm in love with you" and Nat said "I love you." It took a couple months, but now when Nat talks about it (to Blake, to Rafe), she talks about being "in love" with Olivia. But yeah, she's definitely been the brakes on the relationship, ever since before it began. It'll be interesting if, when she returns, Liv puts the brakes on and Nat needs to win her over. |
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| solitasolano | Jul 8 2009, 09:54 PM Post #291 |
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You're response is not a surprise. I held off reading the last 3 pages of posts until I could get some thoughts out...having read them now, I noticed you are more generous towards Natalia than I would be in terms of her progress towards love, acceptance and openness. I retain much hope for her myself. I so want to see that happen...see my comment about the arguments. Watching the forest through the trees in the past few days, I lost count of the number of times Olivia said "I'm sorry." Some how I missed that detail. I also missed the brown shirt moment which was probably more important. I need to elaborate more on this. I see her pregnancy as the ONLY reason Natalia splits town as it's totally not something she can put off coming to terms with. Will try to add on to this concept latter. Oh and that thing with Olivia brushing off Father F*y gave me a good chuckle, but not before I heard his line about the retreat and how guests weren't allowed and Olivia's non verbal reaction to this...rules so don’t apply to Olivia Spencer. I can imagine it now almost....STELLAAAA!!!!! he he |
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| abzug | Jul 9 2009, 01:07 AM Post #292 |
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In love with a prisoner
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Oh, totally. I gathered that from your post, definitely, and I think it's completely right on target.
I believe some people online have taken to referring to CC as "Stan".
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| cagey | Jul 9 2009, 02:20 AM Post #293 |
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G3 Curtain and Duvet!
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I like the way you say she is "working towards" a relationship with Olivia - which is a very important thing to keep in mind as this moves forward. They are not there yet. You also have no problem in saying it is the pregnancy being a timer that is about to go off - which cuts to the center of the collective fear: is it possible that she will go on her retreat and conclude that she should, in fact, marry the baby's father. While I am fairly sure we are all on board with the concept that Natalia does feel deep love for Olivia, the only reason she cannot tell Olivia about the pregnancy (other than the head smacking embarrassment of it) is that she thinks that for some reason being pregnant prevents them from being together. Either because Olivia will reject her or because God wants her to marry Frank. Keeping in mind that we have that other thread going, I want to ask you all about Streetcar Named Desire references. So I am going over there now. |
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| abzug | Jul 9 2009, 02:59 AM Post #294 |
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In love with a prisoner
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I think the head-smacking embarassment is a big factor, and shouldn't be dismissed. I mean, one of the few definitive things she said about her emotional state was "I'm so ashamed." In addition, it may seem like a subtle distinction to make, but I think she's concerned that the message from God is that she shouldn't be with Olivia, not that she SHOULD be with Frank. The message from God might be "You shouldn't be with Olivia, and not only that you shouldn't have been with Frank before you married him, and here's why: because you can't marry someone you don't love, and now you're going to be unmarried and pregnant, just like you were as a teenager. Have you learned NOTHING over these last 20 years?" Do I play God well or what?
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| cagey | Jul 9 2009, 03:35 AM Post #295 |
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G3 Curtain and Duvet!
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Can someone replay for me exactly what Olivia knows about the one night's bad stand with Frank? I remember Olivia's "someone got laid" line - was it to Olivia that she did the whole sex outside of marriage is a sin thing? I agree abzug that the shame is really huge for her. Perhaps it is the double whammy of once again being unweddedly pregnant and now being in love with a woman that has sent her over the edge. Two shames at once and proving just as Rafe has been implying, that she is a hypocrite.
God has awesome syntax. ![]() But God starts with "you shouldn't be with Olivia" - Didn't Natalia and God had reached consensus on this right after the WoD? You shouldn't have slept with Frank before marriage - generic God would get her for that. You shouldn't have slept with a man you don't love - Nat's God definitely has that on the list of bad things. I'm still thinking the crux of the matter is: Should she be desiring sex with a woman - will Natalia's all encompassing God of Love give the okay? |
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| abzug | Jul 9 2009, 03:58 AM Post #296 |
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In love with a prisoner
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She had thought so, but now if the pregnancy is a sign, perhaps she had misread her bible. |
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| ekny | Jul 9 2009, 05:04 AM Post #297 |
In love with a prisoner
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N: Is it a bigger sin to love a woman or to have slept with a man outside of marriage? Love is current tense. Have slept is past by definition because she's preggers, but she has no feelings for Frank. We know this. So there's backsliding here, for sure. We thought she had the Sin business internally settled: she doesn't. It's the same, in her head--still--for both sets of conditions: sex outside marriage with a man/sex with a woman. But there's no backsliding on the love, here or in the next lines, despite how she frames the question: N: I'm pregnant. And I don't know if God is trying to punish me because I love Olivia, or trying to tell me that I should have married Frank, or both? Seems to me those both weigh the argument against Olivia, so they're kinda the same thing. And both bad conclusions from faulty premises. But loving Olivia is still present tense, as opposed to should-have-married-Frank. Fr. Ray: I don't think God's punishing you. Or telling you you should have married Frank. So that's of note. It's the show having it both ways again with this character (Fr. R), but it's still pretty important in this context. Fr. Asshat explicitly refutes her internal arguments: God's not saying either thing. (From the man who's been saying Wrong Wrong Wrong! for a month but alright, we'll take it where we can get it.) N: Olivia and I had just decided that we were going to tell Emma. And then we were going to the Bauer barbecue together. [...to get roasted. Sorry, sorry.] N: And then this happened and I can't believe this could be coincidence, I think it must mean something. [snarky comment about the weird similarities between this kind of thinking and superstition narrowly avoided. ...Woops.] Fr. Ray: I agree, it happened for a reason. N: What? R: If I knew I would tell you. But the road to that answer is a journey you're going to have to take by yourself. N: I saw Frank before and I couldn't, I just couldn't tell him. And the thought of telling Olivia... I don't know what to do, I just don't know what to do. On the entirely positive side, her delivery around the difference between telling Frank and the (mere) *thought* of telling Olivia felt significant. And was nicely done. It's the most emoting she does in this scene, & she clearly is pretty overwhelmed by what this means for the two of them. Still. Most of all. imo. |
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| traveller | Jul 9 2009, 05:34 AM Post #298 |
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G2 landing
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cagey
Liv & Nat in kitchen starts at min 1:49 till end of scene. Nat tell Liv about nite with Frank http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjpCMa83kec...re=channel_page |
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Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood ..... Helen Keller No one can make you feel inferior without your consent .... Eleanor Roosevelt | |
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| solitasolano | Jul 9 2009, 06:24 AM Post #299 |
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Oh ekny, thanks. You quoting the dialog made me go back and look at that scene again. See, because when I saw that episode, that scene, I remember never getting the impression Natalia was in doubt about how she felt about Olivia. She was all set to come out at the BBQ. She wasn’t all set to be pregnant as I’ve written before. The dialog conts... Fr: Maybe you should go away for awhile, by yourself and try to figure things out. N: That just sounds like running away. Fr: No, run towards something (i.e. towards someone). That’s all I need to hear. She’s not in doubt about Olivia, just the unexpected pregnancy and what it will mean to them, to us. She’s going have to get to the point of “I can’t imagine my life without her.” She’s not quite there yet. The sin thing, is her knee jerk reaction. Besides, look at the scene again. It's Olivia she feels she has sinned against, in a way is unfaithful to. She couldn't tell Frank (she doesn't care about him so why should she tell him anyways). But the thought of telling Olivia, causes her to take a quick breath and raise up her body slightly. The thought of telling Olivia is too much at that moment. (remember she doesn't take O's phone call that comes in during this time.) Once at peace, she'll know what to do.
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| abzug | Jul 9 2009, 12:40 PM Post #300 |
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In love with a prisoner
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That's a killer scene. It was at the time, and it is now, in terms of how Natalia must be thinking about this pregnancy. Her upsetness at the anxiety that God hates her is particularly striking. Of course, even in this scene she was talking about her feelings for Olivia at the same time as her feelings about Frank (man, the writing from December through March/April was just so awesome), and I think she's progressed a lot since this scene to be where she is with Olivia now. Anyway, thanks for the link. |
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8:46 AM Jul 11