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Otalia - Guiding Light
Topic Started: Mar 29 2009, 06:54 PM (21,272 Views)
solitasolano
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Here's something additional I had left over from the other day. I'll post it in honor of anticipation on today's angst.
abzug Jul 6 2009
02:25 PM

Anyway, I was wondering why Olivia wasn't more anxious about the coming out party, given that she's been almost as worried as Natalia about people finding out, what they'll think of her etc.

cagey Jul 7 2009
03:31 AM

I am not sure I'd go there. I do think that making a public statement that they are together is very important for Olivia because it means they have jumped all the hurdles….She needed to get the public stuff out of the way so she could get personal with Natalia. Because Natalia is all about the public since she is repressing the personal.


I disagree about Olivia being concerned about people finding out, or about what people think. Isn't that a running theme of the show's writing that Olivia Spencer doesn't care what people think..not to mention her very early on rant to Natalia after the two mommy thing was still going on, the, what's so bad about being a lesbian, etc. (After the classic 'honey' crew out of the two mom chicks in the restaurant.) The several times Olivia has said that she'scared too is for a different reason than Natalia who's just plain scared of her feelings towards Olivia and what that means...means for her, for us, for the public. But what Olivia is scared of is that Natalia will not be able to make a full commitment to the relationship.
So the soap continues...
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cagey
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Details -

Thank you Traveller for the clip - brought some new recognition into where we are now.

solitasolano
 
disagree about Olivia being concerned about people finding out, or about what people think. Isn't that a running theme of the show's writing that Olivia Spencer doesn't care what people think..


Perhaps we established with today's episode that she does have limits to how "pathetic" she will be. At least in this relationship.

And wasn't that a heart-breaker of a speech? Interesting that she had to reference Tennessee Williams - which the way it was done was far higher brow that one might have expected - just in case some people missed the essence of the speech.

I am, again, trying to piece together the little bits of yarn that might become whole cloth. Certainly Olivia's speech to Natalia is setting the scene: we all know that loving someone is the right thing to do. We had forgiveness between Bill/Dinah/Lizzie; we had Reva would welcome Jeffrey back in spite of what he did; and we have Dinah ... who in spite of everything she has done, is welcomed back.

While I am not looking forward to "not being pathetic" and shut down Olivia, I'm interested by what she does to contend with the current sorrow.
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ekny
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In love with a prisoner
I thought the TW ref was a little unnecessary: superfluous. Editorial.

Although I generally agree with your thoughts about Olivia, solitasolano, a lot of that stuff from her was very early on, while she was just starting to deal with the idea that this might be personal. I always viewed it as her way of sort of pushing herself through some of the more external issues in order to find a way to deal with the other, maybe bigger issues for her, all the internal stuff... fear of what it does mean, is it real, what does Natalia feel, what do I (Olivia) feel... all of that?

Also, a lot of those statements, although positive coming from Olivia's mouth (for ex.: decent) are negatively framed: decent is, after all, in defense of their Innocence, at that point--she uses it to defend the relationship to Doris against Doris's campaign. (She would of course say the same thing now, but we don't have that example to work with bec now we're deep into the personal.)

I started making a whole list but it was a bit demoralizing. Scandalous, our-children/must be Safe, no big deal, innocent, silly, not a couple, what they call us, didn't count, not real... it really was a *very* long list. (Not only from Olivia--just all of the show's ways of referencing This without using the l-word.) Some of it could be argued as neutral-in-context (at best), but a lot... not really. I viewed it as the show having it both ways. Lesbian as a word is only used twice (thus far), once conflated with serial killers. Etc.
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traveller
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G2 landing
I digress a little from todays heartbreak to say I loved the pre-"Stella" road trip dialogue between Doris and Olivia.

Doris arriving with her road snacks and bug spray was hilarious. Liv's comment about "finding Natalia before she becomes a nun and ships off to Africa" and Doris "She is not going to become a nun, she loves you way too much for that. She's probably just off somewhere reflecting or fasting or having a vision or something ... that's what religious people do." What a hoot!

I loved the way girly Doris leaves Liv to load her suitcase. Liv says .. "I'll get that." As if she had a choice! I thought Liv was going to shove that suitcase right through the floor of the trunk and the way she slammed the lid ... :rofl I wonder how long the good Mayor and Olivia would last on a road trip ?? :rolleyes:

The bit where Doris says .. "Oh look, we're gonna go right to Oakdale. You know what, there is a great little diner there.... " If you look at Crystal's face, I swear she is trying to stifle a laugh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tILfmwoUfgU&feature=channel

Nice scene they did together. Some great one liners.

Ok, back to the angst ! :D
Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood ..... Helen Keller

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent .... Eleanor Roosevelt

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abzug
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In love with a prisoner
ekny
 
I started making a whole list but it was a bit demoralizing. Scandalous, our-children/must be Safe, no big deal, innocent, silly, not a couple, what they call us, didn't count, not real... it really was a *very* long list. (Not only from Olivia--just all of the show's ways of referencing This without using the l-word.) Some of it could be argued as neutral-in-context (at best), but a lot... not really.

You and I have disagreed on this for a long time. Like with BG, you have to look at the characters who are expressing the homophobic viewpoint. They have been Alan and Doris. Alan is the Fenner of Guiding Light, and Doris's homophobia wound up being explained in the most fascinating (and pro-gay) way possible. So I disagree that the presentation of the homophobic viewpoints is even neutral. I think it's incredibly critical of that point of view, and always has been, even if it's presenting a world where people are perhaps more concerned about gays than we are used to (those of us who live in gay meccas like you and I).

ekny
 
I thought the TW ref was a little unnecessary: superfluous. Editorial.

I was with you until I rewatched the ep with my gf, who isn't a reader of media the way we are, and she didn't get the TW reference until Olivia actually mentioned it, at which she got it.
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marymartin
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Hopefully after the show wraps this story up however they are going to, I can go back and watch these scenes with a lot more detachment and with a critical eye than I can at the moment. THIS is what I did not want to see while Natalia was gone -- more Olivia on the cross moments; watching her self esteem take another hit; Natalia coming across as unfeeling and selfish.

How in the heck they are going to rectify this, deal with a baby, deal with the town, deal with Rafe and even come close to moving on with the physical side of their relationship (which if it happens at all onscreen, I'm betting won't be until their last scene on the show) in the remaining time once JL returns is beyond me. This is especially frustrating with the tortoise-like storytelling that has been going on with Otalia since the non-wedding.

I suspect that we're going to have Frank/Olivia/Natalia right up until the end. Is it wrong to pray that Marina turns out to be the killer and Frank is covering for her, both get caught and the 'good man' is sentenced to at least 20 years in prison?
"Thomas is gorgeous. He's everything you would want in a man. But I want a woman."
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Jeanna
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I said SIT IN THAT CHAIR
We may only think the Tenn Wms. ref was unnecessary because we've been talking about Liv's turn as "Stanley" shouting "Stella!" since the spoiler's been out there and difficult to avoid. We got it right away. Not everyone would have made that connection, with or without the scripted reference. I was rather delighted, myself, that they actually included the ref in dialogue.
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marymartin
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Question for all of you thoughtful, analytical people on here. What is your opinion about the writing since the non-wedding? Personally I am not of the Jill Lorie Hurst and Ellen Wheeler are goddesses and can do no wrong school. I think, like all people, they have faults. To me, the writing has gone downhill since April, even though there have been some good moments/scenes -- overall I have been very disappointed. Just wondering what the rest of you think.
"Thomas is gorgeous. He's everything you would want in a man. But I want a woman."
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cagey
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Quote:
 
What is your opinion about the writing since the non-wedding?


Depends upon what you mean by 'writing.'

I think the dialogue has been excellent. I am really enjoying the playful references and the shout-backs to GL history throughout the show. Yesterday's Olivia scenes were just great from a script (and whatever ad libs were there) pov.

I know some people are criticizing the 'writing' to vent about their feelings about The Plot. I've come to terms with the pregnancy and see it now as the reason for Natalia's crisis of confidence more than an impediment to their happiness. I also don't care one way or the other about Frank.

The stasis of May and June was tedious but possible inevitable because of timing the maternity leave. In retrospect those months may make more sense in terms of Natalia's internal turmoil. On the plus side, these months did solidify in my mind that Natalia does deeply love Olivia and will eventually return to her.
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solitasolano
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Jeanna Jul 10 2009
01:47 PM
We may only think the Tenn Wms. ref was unnecessary because we've been talking about Liv's turn as "Stanley" shouting "Stella!" since the spoiler's been….

This newbie had to hear only four words spoken, “visitors are not allowed”, to an agitated Olivia to instantly know where this was going….really, I didn’t know the spoilage, I haven’t read other boards…all I knew of the character was that the rules don’t apply to Olivia Spencer and she was going to go get her woman. Too bad she didn’t.

marymartin Jul 10 2009
01:43 PM

How in the heck they are going to rectify this, deal with a baby, deal with the town, deal with Rafe and even come close to moving on with the physical side of their relationship.

Word, marymartin, and in two months at that.. I take whatever. I’m enjoying the ride whatever the criticisms.

ekny Jul 10 2009
06:11 AM

I always viewed it as her way of sort of pushing herself through some of the more external issues in order to find a way to deal with the other, maybe bigger issues for her, all the internal stuff... fear of what it does mean.

For someone who has only watched the youtube cliff notes version of the show, and that in the last two weeks, Olivia Spencer still comes across to me as someone for whom the external and internal issues of this attraction and love are not separate. The character has no problem with the external and says so several times. The internal snuck up on her, she wasn’t looking for it (also said several times to various people). Her internal fear is ‘what does her feelings mean for her relationship/friendship with Natalie’, not what does it mean to be lesbian.

ekny, you have my permission NOT to make that long list, only because I don’t have the time to do my equal share of the research as I would want to (lol). As for using the word ‘lesbian’, I can count 3 times right off the top of my cliff note head without further study. All are uttered by Olivia herself; the rant to Olivia after the restaurant scene; the egging on of Alan (say it with me); and the denial to the bartender. The word is out there for the audience. They’ll think what they want to. I reminded of Lillian Faderman’s book, Twilight Lovers (great read) and the victorian concept of romantic friendships to frame close and passionate female relationships because genital intimacy, along with passionate friendship did not have the word ‘lesbian’ to go with it.

The show is having it both ways, but from what I can tell, that is the intention. I’m still newbie enough to not have a sense of the showrunner’s intentions…just my reaction as newly obsessed audience. I still, maintain that Olivia’s internal fear (I’m scared) is that she will be rejected by Natalia, especially fear of losing the friendship, because the latter’s emotional baggage primarily religious in nature. And isn’t that the message we came away with after this road trip episode. “She pushed me away.” Her fear finally actualized as she experiences Nat’s non-communication.

I couldn’t sign off without linking to my current fav Olivia/Doris scene. Just enough snark.
Just enough vulnerability.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kaknQt12O4
Check out CC's voice modulation in her delivery of; “I want to get wasted,” and, sadly, “I DON”T know what to say.”
It actually starts in part 2 at 2:16 and worth a hoot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9imBFj-_ZI
Olivia charges into the mayor’s office.
Olivia to Doris , “Hey, buy you a drink?”
Doris, “You asking me out on a date, Miss Spencer?” (Flirt, flirt. Who calls OIivia, Miss Spencer?)
Olivia, “No, I said drink, not dinner, and you’re buying.”
Doris, “Alrighty then.”

ENJOY

ps. marymartin, this newbie, to the show and the genre, thinks the writing for this s/l is just fine, tortoise pace notwithstanding.
I really should get to work.... :D
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abzug
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In love with a prisoner
In that scene at the bar with Doris, is Olivia wearing the same brown shirt she was wearing in this past week's episodes? Fascinating. Should we give credit to the costumers for putting Olivia in the same shirt in the two weeks when she was feeling Natalia was being torn from her? (Or, where Natalia was pushing her away--depending on how you read the wedding week and this past week.)

OK, so, the writing. I don't think it's gone downhill. Here are the general attributes I look at when evaluating writing:
1. Emotional involvement
2. Layers of meaning
3. Pacing
4. Literariness (eg symbolism, metaphors, themes etc)
5. Plot

There have been MANY times throughout this storyline (particularly the last week of March into April) where I thought #3 was seriously lacking, and that was undermining my enjoyment A LOT. And in terms of #5, plot, well, yeah, I wish they were kissing, I wish they focused on their personal relationship before their relationship with their community, but I respect what the writers are trying to do. And I don't have a problem with Natalia being pregnant, because I honestly can't think of another way they could have precipitated a crisis big enough for her to leave town for a month.

I think that #1 and #4 have actually been pretty consistently good. I find myself caring about these characters and their relationship. I watch their scenes and I'm emotionally involved. What's happening feels real to me. I get butterflies in my stomach. I don't think about the fact that it's a silly soap opera. And the show has consistently incorporated certain metaphors for MONTHS now (food/cooking/eating is a big one, there are lots of others).

So then we're left with #2. And I think the only time when the storyline did this satisfactorily was between January and March, when every conversation Olivia and Natalia had was about what they were talking about on the surface, AND about so many other things. Subtext in a soap opera! Characters saying one thing when they were actually talking about something else! It made the scenes endlessly interesting to watch, and it made the acting really layered. Especially because in at least some of the scenes, the characters themselves didn't realize they were talking about the something else, or weren't even aware the something else was going on. I'm thinking Natalia's scene where she's scrubbing the kitchen floor, for instance.

So overall I've got no complaints with how the writing has been, and I don't think it's been worse in recent weeks or anything like that. There have been periods I've enjoyed more than others throughout the entire thing, and I wish wish wish they'd KISSED already! But I do think when it's all over and we go back and rewatch the entire thing on YouTube in a few sittings, rather than spread over months, it'll feel much more coherent and well done.
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abzug
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In love with a prisoner
Speaking of 'literariness' have we talked about the various little symbolisms in yesterday's ep?

Doris's Junk Food: Given what food and eating represents, the fact that Doris needed to buy junk food, was late because of it, and then consumed the crap while Olivia didn't partake at all tells us everything we need to know about Doris's crappy love life (due to her choice to remain in the closet) and Olivia's desire for something much richer.

Doris's Bug Spray: The only really outdoorsy scene we ever got related to this storyline was the hiking one at the spa, which we know represented sex. And we also learned then that Olivia is an "indoor/outdoor" gal, unlike Doris who is clearly a completely indoor gal--hence the need for bug spray. For Natalia, the jury is still out.

Doris the Navigator: Perfect for our Gay Sensei (TWoP credit for the nickname) who has been guiding Olivia in her coming out process that she'd be reading the map. Interestingly, she never tells Olivia how to go; instead she gives her a choice of two routes, and Olivia chooses which way to go. (credit to my friend Jenn for pointing out all this out in an email to me)
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cagey
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solitasolano
 
I still, maintain that Olivia’s internal fear (I’m scared) is that she will be rejected by Natalia, especially fear of losing the friendship, because the latter’s emotional baggage primarily religious in nature. And isn’t that the message we came away with after this road trip episode. “She pushed me away.” Her fear finally actualized as she experiences Nat’s non-communication.


Interesting point. The "She pushed me away" is Olivia thinking this was just like every other time she's stuck her neck out in search for love and got the shaft. The fear of losing the friendship has always been high on both of their lists, and this disappearance, the way it was done, has to cut very deep.

About the writing:

abzug
 
I was with you until I rewatched the ep with my gf, who isn't a reader of media the way we are, and she didn't get the TW reference until Olivia actually mentioned it, at which she got it.


This is what I was all about on the spoiler thread. Whether people get what, to some of us, seem to be popular cultural references or not.

I do think it was just sloppy on the part of the writers to build in a Stanley/Stella scene and then make a specific reference, as it "look at me, we are literate" kind of way. Certainly there needs to be a transition, where Olivia realizes that screams at convent walls will not bring Natalia home, but I would have gone with a specific reference, something along the lines of "so much for the kindness of strangers" and then hitting the gas back to Springfield.

I agree abzug that the subtext in the winter period was some of the most exciting writing. I suspect if we really wanted to look at the last six weeks or so we could find lots of subtext that we don't want to see leading up to Natalia's departure.

Meanwhile - love the junk food metaphor you bring abzug to the table for Doris. Apt it is. Doris snacking her way through Olivia's emotional crisis - very interesting. We could get all analytical about it, but I think it was a throw away.

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solitasolano
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abzug
 
is Olivia wearing the same brown shirt she was wearing in this past week's episodes?

No, the first on is a scoop necked top with something worn under, and this more recent one is a v neck. ..now the question is, is either of these the brown top Olivia was wearing when Jane was at the door.. :D

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Jeanna
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marymartin
Jul 10 2009, 08:43 AM
Hopefully after the show wraps this story up however they are going to, I can go back and watch these scenes with a lot more detachment and with a critical eye than I can at the moment.  THIS is what I did not want to see while Natalia was gone -- more Olivia on the cross moments; watching her self esteem take another hit; Natalia coming across as unfeeling and selfish.

How in the heck they are going to rectify this, deal with a baby, deal with the town, deal with Rafe and even come close to moving on with the physical side of their relationship (which if it happens at all onscreen, I'm betting won't be until their last scene on the show) in the remaining time once JL returns is beyond me.  This is especially frustrating with the tortoise-like storytelling that has been going on with Otalia since the non-wedding.

I suspect that we're going to have Frank/Olivia/Natalia right up until the end.  Is it wrong to pray that Marina turns out to be the killer and Frank is covering for her, both get caught and the 'good man' is sentenced to at least 20 years in prison?

Those sum up the...well, the sum of my fears all too well...

As for Marina being the possible killer (Mallet is certainly more than a little suspicious) ... what if daddy isn't just covering for her, but the culprit? I said awhile back that if this were a film "the good man" himself (tho protecting his little girl and her baby in this instance) would be revealed as the psycho-killer--as in this delightful insta-classic vid: The Good Man, Trailer for a Non-existent Movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upPRPvERZJo
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