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Otalia - Guiding Light
Topic Started: Mar 29 2009, 06:54 PM (21,271 Views)
ekny
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In love with a prisoner
Re the Tennessee Williams: talking down to your audience is always a mistake. So the direct reference did seem unnecessary to me. Half the pleasure in finding allusions or references within a work is finding them. Or having them find you. And watching them grow organically out of the writing, in some cases. Also: editorializing always takes a viewer or reader away from the primary emotion being portrayed. In this case it was a necessary transition: I just don't think they went about it in quite the right way. It was a shortcut, I assume made under the pressure of time.

The writing is still very good, I see no decline in last week's scenes, certainly. The small detail about Olivia being self-aware enough to ask Phillip to drive her home says worlds about her state of mind & her suffering without having to emote all over the place about it: it's a really, really nice detail. And as a piece of writing, incredibly understated.


...damn. Thunder. Downpour. Oh well. //
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marymartin
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The ghost of Larkhall!
Thanks to everyone who responded to my question about the writing. I guess, this blog sums up my point of view. I'm a 'big picture' kind of person and it looks to me like the writers have written these two characters into a corner and there isn't enough remaining time to really do justice to writing them out, if that's even possible.

Super Couple or BS?
"Thomas is gorgeous. He's everything you would want in a man. But I want a woman."
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Jeanna
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I said SIT IN THAT CHAIR
Well...maybe. I'm braced for slipshod, but I'm still hoping for something more. We still have to wait and see. But...depending on how much time they allot to this, the most important story they are telling, and, along with Phillip's end days, the most moving to the greatest number of fans I am sure...we have to remember that entire lifetimes are told in 90 min. or two hr. movies...all depends upon the economy they use in the storytelling and I don't just mean short cuts or compression--if they go that route at this point, yes, we (and they--the actresses, the characters) will get slighted.

I certainly don't want to see this groundbreaking story turn into some kind of bait and switch.

Be interesting to see if CC and JL's message to the fans on Sept. 18th will be spin, damage control, commiseration, apology, or...something else that doesn't fall into any of those categories.
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cagey
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Seems to me that the primary complaint in that blog post, MM, is the extremely hard to stomach notion that Natalia would be unaware of being pregnant for 4 months. That covers her commandments 1 - 7. Nos. 8 and 10 are reminders that the story is finite in length. No. 9 is something we've talked about here - the juxtaposition of what the heterosexuals get vs. our two lonely not-yet-lesbians during the BBQ.

As much as anyone, I am dismayed by the use of pregnancy as a plot device, primarily because isn't it always pregnancy? But now that we have it, I think we should look at why it is there. It is not just an excuse to get Natalia off screen so JL could have her real baby. I am prepared to argue it is a necessary step in the path towards these two becoming a couple - cause they aren't there yet.

Re-watching the scene where she confesses to Olivia that she slept with Frank reminded me of two things: first how extremely intimate a relationship she has with her god and secondly, how fearful she is of that god. Her primary emotional relationship is with god. Sleeping with Frank was a sin. Loving Olivia is not *yet* a sin and she has consistently and diligently made sure it hasn't become one.

Her facile faith that god was okay with the new family always struck me as a little too convenient. All those bible quotes about love and all her speeches to Olivia about god is love - but what is her big concern: god will hate her. God loves everyone else, but he hates her. What she has to get over and deal with is that god doesn't hate her. God doesn't hate her for sleeping with Frank and he won't hate her for loving Olivia. The pregnancy is the means by which she can reach this conclusion.

Subtext to god not hating her is her own self-esteem issues. If god hates her for getting pregnant: then Olivia must hate her, and she surely must hate herself. Hence, the mad dash to the nunnery. This hits Olivia right in the middle of her own self-esteem issues: she's been pushed away and she will not be pathetic. That is such an invitation for her to do something drastic.

All of which strikes me as a very interesting plot development and an important hurdle for them, as individuals, to leap over so they can find their strength in being together as a couple. And that, afterall, is the "endgame": not the sex or the snogging, it's the forged bond of the partnership.

It's unfortunate that a large part of Natalia's processing will be taking place off stage in the convent. I hope we get to see Olivia's process. Once they are reunited they can fit the pieces together before the end of the show. In a way, I'd prefer them to be on the very brink of happiness rather than standing together and saying those anvil filled words: now that we are together, what could possibly go wrong?
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solitasolano
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cagey, I am so with you on the God thing where Natalia is concerned. Like you said it's like her main relationship...
A couple of pages back when I joined the fun here (very late to the party), one of my observations from catching up with the story line was that I saw that Olivia has been noticeably changed by the relationship whereas Natalia has yet to be so. As audience, I'm personally bored with the god thing, but it's what we have to work with where Nat is concerned....Olivia has already said that she can't imagine her life without Natalia. I'm hopin' runaway Nat returns having finally figured it out that out. God, notwithstanding, to not live without Olivia is the most important thing. God playing second fiddle to Olivia is a tall order seeing as how the 'my relationship with god' theme has been hammered continually in for this character.

I agree with marymartin that the short time life doesn't give the writers much time to resolve this for the characters. I'm assuming plot lines for Otalia had to be revised and rethought for ending the show. I'm so over the pregnancy thing...mainly because "family' is one of the primary Otalia themes. Sh*t happens, I believe the saying goes. I also accept that Natalia's processing will happen off camera. Long term, this is Olivia's story. The character has been with show for so long. I even see it in the lighting, contrasting their closeups...I've come to believe that is intentional.

No matter how the writers have written these characters out to the final show, I at least have had a great ride with some of the moments and writing I've been able to watch as a catch up viewer (now that I'm caught up, I can't definitely see how waiting for soap time to happen is a very different dynamic than flippin around youtube to my heart's content is.

And, cagey, not to worry. The couple is already on the brink of happiness, so I say, enjoy the rest of the ride.

Enjoy the rest of the day, you all. I'm off to do my first canvassing for repealing prop 8 so that all the Otalia couples and the families of the country can have a less bumpy ride.
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abzug
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In love with a prisoner
solitasolano
 
Olivia has already said that she can't imagine her life without Natalia. I'm hopin' runaway Nat returns having finally figured it out that out. God, notwithstanding, to not live without Olivia is the most important thing.

Natalia did say something along these lines right after the near-kiss, I believe, when she went to church and prayed that she would never lose her best friend. It's not framed exactly the same way, but I think the meaning is similar.

solitasolano
 
I'm off to do my first canvassing for repealing prop 8 so that all the Otalia couples and the families of the country can have a less bumpy ride.

That's great! I'm sending you energy and good vibes (and I should probably write a check while I'm at it). Break a leg!
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solitasolano
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abzug
Jul 12 2009, 01:05 PM
right after the near-kiss!

LOL. Which one? There were so many.
I'll be back latter to talk about writing....I'm liking a lot of it.
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abzug
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solitasolano
Jul 12 2009, 05:04 PM
abzug
Jul 12 2009, 01:05 PM
right after the near-kiss!

LOL. Which one? There were so many.
I'll be back latter to talk about writing....I'm liking a lot of it.

Oh, yeah, right! For those of us watching day by day, for months there was only ONE near-kiss, in the hospital when Olivia's heart pager thingy goes off. Nowadays they happen every episode, don't they?
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cagey
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I believe the both of them have stated that their biggest fear in proceeding with their relationship is that they might lose their best friend. This is huge cause neither of them has a second best friend.

solitasolano
 
The character has been with show for so long. I even see it in the lighting, contrasting their closeups...I've come to believe that is intentional.


Can you speak more to this? I sorta agree, I just haven't the eye to catch it. There is the soap hierarchy - in which Olivia is much higher in status than Natalia -- *as a character*.

Looking forward to you comments about the writing.

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marymartin
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solitasolano
Jul 12 2009, 09:04 PM

LOL. Which one? There were so many.

This is the 'near kiss'. It happened in mid March when Olivia had to have the batteries changed in her pacemaker. Natalia was leaning in when Olivia 'woke up.' ;)

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marymartin
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The ghost of Larkhall!
Cagey: Very thoughtful post and I agree with most of your analysis. This part though:
Quote:
 
All of which strikes me as a very interesting plot development and an important hurdle for them, as individuals, to leap over so they can find their strength in being together as a couple.  And that, afterall, is the "endgame": not the sex or the snogging, it's the forged bond of the partnership.


Isn't snogging and shagging a natural part of being a couple? That is the part I don't want to see those in charge chickening out on at the end of the day. If you are heterosexual and marry your best friend, you kiss them, make love with them, share 'everything two people in love share', to quote Natalia. I want no less for Otalia. We have been with them for every step of this journey, going from dislike to friendship, falling in love, dealing with adversity, now hopefully soon reconciliation after JL comes back from her leave. It would be unfair not to see the good stuff -- at least a darn kiss and allusion to more on September 18th.
"Thomas is gorgeous. He's everything you would want in a man. But I want a woman."
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cagey
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G3 Curtain and Duvet!
Snogging and shagging are certainly part of the deal. You are completely correct. But the fun times can't begin until they earn their couple status. That's where the clock ticking down is problematic. Although it also, in a way, saves us from being disappointed and ticked off later since odds are good there would never have been much of that shown on screen.

Yes - at least a few kisses and a fade out before the end.
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abzug
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In love with a prisoner
I had a thought last night as I was falling asleep (or, really, not falling asleep) about the lack of kissing, the pregnancy storyline, and the impending ending of GL. Here goes:

I think part of the reason some people have been so upset about the Natalia-is-pregnant revelation is that we were using Jessica Leccia's pregnancy to excuse the writers for not having Natalia and Olivia kiss. We wanted them to kiss, but we sort of understood that it might be hard to stage it and have it look good when JL was so huge. And we had to explain it this way, because any of the other explanations (CBS won't let them kiss, P&G won't let them kiss, Ellen Wheeler and Jill Lorie Hurst aren't fighting hard enough to let them kiss) were too annoying/upsetting.

So we'd come up with this way to not be too upset about the lack of kissing. And then we found out about the Nat-is-pregnant storyline, and our excuses for the no-kissing blew up in our faces. Because if JL's pregnancy was the reason that there had been no kissing, then Natalia's fictional pregnancy means, logically, that there will continue to be no kissing. And that is infuriating! But it's not infuriating because Natalia is pregnant. It's infuriating because Natalia and Olivia won't (might not) kiss. It's like for lesbian fans Natalia's pregnancy is a proxy for the lack of physical intimacy between these two women.

So I was kind of thinking that lesbian fans might be able to be more Olivia-like (straightforward in our experience and expression of our emotions) and less Natalia-like (confused, repressed and inadvertently miscommunicative about our emotions) if we did the following:
1. Realize that JL's pregnancy had nothing to do with why they didn't kiss. That it was one of the infuriating reasons I mentioned above.
2. Get really mad about the fact that Natalia and Olivia never kissed after declaring their love for each other.
3. See Natalia's pregnancy as a story decision completely separate from the lack of kissing. If there is no kissing going forward, Natalia's pregnancy won't be to blame. (If anything, it's the other way--they will have made Natalia pregnant to avoid kissing.)

When I look at things this way, I am even less troubled about Natalia being pregnant, and I am WAY more mad about the fact that Olivia and Natalia haven't had a physical relationship. And I feel like, for me personally, any frustrations I might have are a bit more direct. So I'm back to still thinking the writing is good overall, but that we're still fifth class citizens with completely different rules for showing our physical intimacy.

The only solution to this problem, as I see it, is for Nat to return, Olivia to be cold, and Nat to find Olivia in some very public setting, and to plant a big, passionate kiss on her, right in front of everyone. It will almost make the lack of kissing so far worth it, because it will create a first kiss with tension (Olivia will need to be won over, Natalia will be fearful but willing to do it to win Olivia back), which is much better than a first kiss which is just all lovey-dovey (as any first kiss during the last two months would have been, after they didn't kiss right at the beginning when their fear could have provided enough interesting tension). And it will fulfill the promise of a 'grand gesture' which we know Olivia needs, and Natalia needs to make.
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solitasolano
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On today's show, 5 different hetero couples exchanged kisses of various kinds and any number of times.

No more response than that is needed to your kissing theories abzug. Hetero show runner, hetero show writers, and hetero studio bosses don't want the women to kiss, period. No kisses, pregnancy real, imagined, and story-lined would not have changed that.

Way back when, Natalia volunteered a chaste kiss on the pecker for Frank after he was so solicitous of her not liking when they kissed before...delivered with different motivation, I expect at least one chaste kiss on the pecker offered up by the runaway. Anything beyond that went down the river a long time ago.

Rafe is such an A-hole.


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abzug
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In love with a prisoner
Rafe is an a-hole, but Olivia looked so gorgeous in that moment, and so dignified, that it was almost (but not quite) worth it. Plus it cemented that we are supposed to hate the kid right now, kicking our girl when she's down.

solitasolano
 
Hetero show runner, hetero show writers, and hetero studio bosses don't want the women to kiss, period.

There is no way in hell Ellen Wheeler is straight. I mean, look at this photo of her* with Jessica Leccia--she's not straight. I can't decide if that makes the no-kissing thing better or worse.

*At least, I'm pretty damn sure this is EW. And if it's not, then whoever it is ISN'T straight, and has something to say about how this important Otalia scene is being filmed.

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