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Otalia - Guiding Light
Topic Started: Mar 29 2009, 06:54 PM (21,270 Views)
solitasolano
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The Muppets!
:o
:lol1 See how I am....I thought the person in the hat was a guy... :rolleyes:
I think I might be convinced to see it your way.

No wait I just googled. This is Ellen Wheeler....I'm stickin with straight.
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cagey
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I have to say that today's show can be seen as all about the subtext. And since we are all so good at reading that, let's go with it. Text was Olivia is not happy thinking about her absent love and therefore departs. Subtext being that all these happy het couples, kissing up a storm, as you point out solitasolano and where are our girls?

Throw away line from Rafe - and who clued him into Olivia ever being married to Bill? What interested me more was his being in the front line of the cake cutting/end of wedding shots.

abzug

Quote:
 
So we'd come up with this way to not be too upset about the lack of kissing. And then we found out about the Nat-is-pregnant storyline, and our excuses for the no-kissing blew up in our faces. Because if JL's pregnancy was the reason that there had been no kissing, then Natalia's fictional pregnancy means, logically, that there will continue to be no kissing. And that is infuriating! But it's not infuriating because Natalia is pregnant. It's infuriating because Natalia and Olivia won't (might not) kiss. It's like for lesbian fans Natalia's pregnancy is a proxy for the lack of physical intimacy between these two women.


I don't quite agree that a pregnant Nat means no kissing. A pregnant JL meant logistics issues, but now that the belly is out in the open, so to speak, why couldn't they? That "let's get physical" vid has certainly taken that ball and run with it. But I do agree that we set ourselves up for disaster by explaining away the physical interaction by way of the big belly.

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The only solution to this problem, as I see it, is for Nat to return, Olivia to be cold, and Nat to find Olivia in some very public setting, and to plant a big, passionate kiss on her, right in front of everyone. It will almost make the lack of kissing so far worth it, because it will create a first kiss with tension (Olivia will need to be won over, Natalia will be fearful but willing to do it to win Olivia back), which is much better than a first kiss which is just all lovey-dovey (as any first kiss during the last two months would have been, after they didn't kiss right at the beginning when their fear could have provided enough interesting tension). And it will fulfill the promise of a 'grand gesture' which we know Olivia needs, and Natalia needs to make.


Skyrockets in flight, absolutely. We can hope.

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solitasolano
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me@Jul 12 2009
07:45 PM
  Olivia has already said that she can't imagine her life without Natalia. I'm hopin' runaway Nat returns having finally figured it out that out. God, notwithstanding, to not live without Olivia is the most important thing.

abzug@Jul 12 2009
08:05 PM
Natalia did say something along these lines right after the near-kiss, I believe, when she went to church and prayed that she would never lose her best friend. It's not framed exactly the same way, but I think the meaning is similar.

Whoa, I’ve been meaning to counter.
Not even close and similar in meaning and intensity. Sure, Natalia had just almost kissed the sleeping beauty, well actually she did, on the forehead. Nat had just rushed big O to the hospital because her heart monitor went off. Nat was scared that something might happen to O, like in die. Hence the rosary praying scene that followed. Just prior to the kiss that never was and may never be, Nat says, “I have never had a friend like your ever.” In prayer she says, “She’s the best friend I’ve ever had. I don’t want to lose that.” Nat may be starting to question her feelings for big O at this point, but she only way she knows how to refer to the feeling is friendship. Contrast that to big O’s (I don’t know, I just feel she’s big O today) declaration to Doris way latter right before the bbq, in response to Doris commenting how incredibly happy and noticing the twinkle in her eye, “and now I can’t imagine my life without her. When we’re together, it’s like things are how they’re supposed to be and I have never felt this way with anyone else! “ This is a declaration of love. Praying you would never lose a best friend is way different than the place Olivia had come to when she tells Doris she couldn’t imagine her life without her, Natalia.

I’d like to see Nat get to that same place. So my hope is she can develop some sort of peace with her God thing which will allow her to meet big O at this same place.
Actually, what I'd really like to see is the next time Natalia insists on giving Olivia a ride home ("its on my way"...ah yeah) she better take O up on the "latte". G
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traveller
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G2 landing
Wheeler is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. She lives with her husband and children in New York. I first saw Ellen when she starred in Another World as Marley Hudson (1984-1986, 1998-1999) and Vicky Hudson (1985-1986) (twin sisters)



Otalia: The Search for Natalia. Latest vid from lejunkdrawer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUdvi9nXyxk
Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood ..... Helen Keller

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent .... Eleanor Roosevelt

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marymartin
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solitasolano
Jul 14 2009, 12:28 AM
:o
:lol1 See how I am....I thought the person in the hat was a guy... :rolleyes:
I think I might be convinced to see it your way.

No wait I just googled. This is Ellen Wheeler....I'm stickin with straight.

Not only is she straight but she is also Morman.
"Thomas is gorgeous. He's everything you would want in a man. But I want a woman."
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marymartin
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solitasolano Olivia has consistently been written as wearing her heart on her sleeve and being very vocal about her feelings for Natalia. Natalia internalizes her feelings about everything, including Olivia. Jessica Leccia has mentioned how difficult it is sometimes for her to convey her emotions because a lot of Natalia's processing is either internal or through prayer.

solitasolano
Jul 14 2009, 05:39 AM
Nat may be starting to question her feelings for big O at this point, but she only way she knows how to refer to the feeling is friendship.

Just to respond and because I think Natalia is the character who gets the short end of the stick in this storyline, again and again -- these comments make me believe Natalia does love Olivia the same way that Olivia loves her. She is just much more naive and does not know how to express what she feels:

"You're everything to me. This kind of thing doesn't happen in my world and it scares me." Gazebo, right after she ran away from the alter.

"I tried to say those things (I love you) to Frank and I couldn't. I don't love Frank. I love you." Gazebo, right after she ran away from the alter.

"I love you and I've never regretted (saying) it." Couch at FOL when Olivia returned from San Francisco.

"I take this very seriously (us) and I want to do it right." FOL when she and Olivia talked about her moving back in.

"I am in love with Olivia" -- comment to her a**hole son after he wanted to know what was going on with his mother and Olivia.

"This is real and you have to let go." Comment to Frank at the hospital.

"Test all things and hold fast to that which is good." Comment quoting bible to Father Ray after she told him she didn't see why she had to choose between her love for Olivia and her love for God.

I don't think she is questioning her feelings for Olivia at all. I think this is more about her relationship with God and whether He hates her. Go back and look at the floor scrubbing scene again -- late February, I think, right after she had sex with Frank. She was freaking out for committing a sin -- making love to a man she did not love. I suspect that it was deeper than that and we will find this out when she comes back to Springfield -- I think she has sex with Frank because she was running from her feelings for Olivia AND while she was having sex with Frank she was imagining having sex with Olivia.

The only way I can rationalize Natalia's behavior in the storyline context, is that she left because she is still trying to work through her religious issues.
"Thomas is gorgeous. He's everything you would want in a man. But I want a woman."
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ekny
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In love with a prisoner
notes from last night:

* Is the flaming pink a sort of scarlet-woman thing? Hard to imagine with this show's non-budget it's deliberate/meaningful in any way. Nevertheless, almost every other woman has on pastels, which at the very least serves to visually set Olivia apart (along w/the camerawork).

* This is certainly an... interesting wedding ceremony: the town vows to support the couple? That's some gangbang.

I simply cannot bring myself to listen to this whole pile of garbage, that chick getting married seems to think acting consists solely of fluttering your eyelashes & the guy who plays Bill, of flashing his man-dimples. Gosh... they do deserve each other.

Nope, can't watch.

But if I did, my guess is that a lot of the camerawork & subtext around other characters--not Olivia--wouldn't necessarily be as Meaningful as the shots where we cut to Olivia herself. Which confirms this storyline is on track, however lurchy said track feels at the mo:


Doris: ...bolster the vows, blahblah... and to your loved ones. [Olivia looks around at the assembled.]

21.00
Bill: And it's your love and your faith in me that has made me whole. [Shot of Olivia listing to the side. Clearly she won't be sticking around long is right. Sheesh. Nice going. Let's see some footage of her open-heart surgery next, whaddyasay?]

21.38 Bill finishes his Thank You For Choosing Me speech. [shot of Olivia looking broken]


* Phillip and Beth. It's been pointed out to me they are/were/are a supercouple, not that I care. Interestingly, they seem to have borrowed one of the Otalia musical themes for their Meaningful Kiss--the all of me, woohoo take all-lll of me nonsense.)

Yup. They're Holding Hands. Must be Very Important. Everyone snogs. So much so there's joking about even the old people kissing. Ooh, the girls must be chapped.

We wouldn't be going through all this angsty bullshit if they weren't going to be a couple at the end. Shrug. As for kissing--well, I've already said my piece there. At least offline. That's not what this was ever about.


I skipped around to find the Olivia parts so still haven't seen Rafe. Just as well.


ETA: Wow. That was ugly. Can we shove Rafe's head down a toilet? Please? Huhhuhhuh? Apparently he's been taking lessons from James & Alan. Guess he's found his place in this town after all.

My question is: is he really so dumb that he doesn't realize his mother's left town?

Anytime I have permission to continue discussing GL's showcasing of negative stereotypes, y'all just let me know.
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solitasolano
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The Muppets!
marymartin, thanks for the information about the Mormon part. Geeze they’re everywhere.

ekny, how did you get that much out of yesterday’s show? lol.

marymartin
 
Natalia internalizes her feelings about everything.

I agree. I hope I didn’t come off as dumping on Natalia. The endless god thing, notwithstanding, I’m with the character we’ve been given. In my previous post, I meant to distinguish a matter of degree. Natalia's kiss/praying/friendship scene was back in March, and Olivia's twinkle in your eye/I can’t live without her/love scene was just before the bbq. All your Natalia quotes come after the non-kiss scene. I do not doubt Nat’s love….I’m holding out for a stronger demonstration of it. That could be in the form of not caring what Rafe says, accepting the god driven doubt part and choosing Olivia at the same time, more public declarations, a grand gesture. We’ll see won’t we?
I’ll be fine with whatever is to come, because I’ve enjoyed my truncated GL experience immensely up to now.


btw, that lejunkdrawer vid is a hoot. I myself love her two “Ode to” vids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uctPvEb8obI&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mmnO4rYyU0&feature=channel
“There’s a giant : THUD on the internet every time when Olivia wears jeans, boots, clothes.
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abzug
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In love with a prisoner
I had heard Ellen Wheeler was a former Mormon, not a current one. Do we have a source for the information that she's currently practicing? I find that hard to believe, based on the way the Catholic religion is being presented in the Otalia storyline. (That photo of her is about 15 years old, btw.)

I just cannot get my head around the fact that it's possible this storyline was developed by two completely straight women. I mean, the tiny moments are so specific and accurate and subtle, it's hard for me to imagine that no gays were involved in writing it.
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solitasolano
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abzug
Jul 14 2009, 02:05 PM
I just cannot get my head around the fact that it's possible this storyline was developed by two completely straight women.

Me neither actually.
Found this description of GL writing process...don't know who the writers are...there are plenty listed on the imdb page...haven't turned up anyone resembling "family" amongst the female writers. We all know ER had Dee Johnson to help that sl along.
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Guiding Light has a unique production style for its writers, as well as everyone else. Although, the show has had Co-Head Writers in the past, it has never shared the duties between four people. These four experience writers share the workload with five scriptwriters. One Head Writer comes up with an outline for a week of episodes. This is sent to the other Head Writers who send back comments and make changes. They have a week to turn this into a working draft and then send it to Executive Producer Ellen Wheeler, the network and the production staff. Everyone gives feedback, notes and points out logistical and budgetary considerations. Each Wednesday and Thursday, the Head Writers gather together to go over the five episode block of episodes they are working on. They assimilate all of the criticisms and changes which have to be made or reviewed. Once that is done, the week is broken into five episodes, each amounting to an eighteen page breakdown. These are taken by the scriptwriters and turned into forty page scripts which Jill Lori Hurst then edits for continuity and to ensure that the character's voices are properly retained. The final product is turned over to the Associate Producers who then review it for continuity and make sure that scheduling will work smoothly with it.
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abzug
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In love with a prisoner
ekny
 
But if I did, my guess is that a lot of the camerawork & subtext around other characters--not Olivia--wouldn't necessarily be as Meaningful as the shots where we cut to Olivia herself. Which confirms this storyline is on track, however lurchy said track feels at the mo:

I agree. I think if anything, all the happy-kissy-couples at the wedding privileged the Otalia storyline, because Olivia's misery felt so wrong in comparison--we're supposed to feel like she should be as happy and loved as all the others. And viewers know exactly what she needs to fit right in, it's not a vague idea or anything, it's very concrete: the love of Natalia.

I also think that just the fact that Olivia and Natalia's relationship is unresolved right now makes it a more important love story than any of the others. Every other character (other than Josh and Reva, whose potential for togetherness is very questionable) is paired with the person they're supposed to be paired with. We've got just a trainload of happy couples. And we've got 2 1/2 more months (oh, shit, wait, 2 more months!) of storyline. The really important couples are still going to be featured in these last 2 months; the less important ones won't need to be, because they are happy already. That clearly puts Olivia and Natalia in the Important Couple category: their fate is interesting and compelling enough to keep viewers engaged right up to the very end.

So who cares if everyone else is kissing and Olivia's miserable? It's not making lesbians second class; it's her misery which makes her (and her lesbian relationship) central.
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cagey
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In prayer she says, “She’s the best friend I’ve ever had. I don’t want to lose that.”


Do they not at some point acknowledge that for each of them the fear of losing their best friend is chief among their worries about moving forward as a couple? I agree, Solitasolano that at the time of the near kiss in the hospital, one assumes that Natalia has not quite got a grip on what she feels for Olivia. Olivia as much says so later to Doris. Which, is one of those moments where Olivia is doing the thinking for Natalia.

Natalia can become ceaselessly interesting since we never really know where she is at, emotionally, around Olivia. Maybe she did know. The fascination of the near kiss is that Olivia broke it off. We all know that Nat was going in for it. Olivia didn't think Nat was ready for it. Makes you wonder what might have happened if that kiss had happened.

Ellen Wheeler being a Mormon: whatever. I can't imagine someone who has some reputation for professionalism would let her personal religious convictions get in the way of a good story, which is what she is being paid to produce. I know we are all a bit prickly from Prop 8, but one tries not to make prejudicial assumptions about Mormon or Catholics or any other religion (and there are so many) with an anti-gay agenda. People of faith do disagree with the tenets of the leadership of that faith.

I hate it when I say things like that, but that's the anarchist in me. ;)

abzug
 
I think if anything, all the happy-kissy-couples at the wedding privileged the Otalia storyline, because Olivia's misery felt so wrong in comparison--we're supposed to feel like she should be as happy and loved as all the others. And viewers know exactly what she needs to fit right in, it's not a vague idea or anything, it's very concrete: the love of Natalia.


Absolutely. I think that was very well played. I haven't, cause I just can't bear to, re-watch the ep, but I do recall another close up shot of Remy, and considering he and Christina had a drunken (but wait, not!) marriage off screen this might also have been a specific choice.

Molson elsewhere had a nifty comment about how if you really hate Rafe now, the writers are doing their job. Or at least I hope it was to that effect, because I cannot believe all these casual bits of abuse that Olivia is getting are without purpose.

abzug
 
So who cares if everyone else is kissing and Olivia's miserable? It's not making lesbians second class; it's her misery which makes her (and her lesbian relationship) central.


Now that's the spirit! (I wouldn't mention it outside of this place, but I am completely with you on that. :)}

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marymartin
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2008 photo of Ellen Wheeler:

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My understanding is that she and Jill Lorie Hurst are the ones writing the Otalia storyline. Presumably there are enough gay and lesbians in the industry and that they know, that they have someone to bounce ideas off of. Crystal Chappell has said several different times that she solicits feedback from her gay and lesbian friends on how she is portraying Olivia in love with Natalia.

Essentially you have four straight, married, women telling this story -- between the writers and the actresses.

Cagey: To answer your question, I care that Olivia is miserable and every other frickin couple is in kissey ville. It's way past time for Natalia and Olivia to be kissing if you ask me.
"Thomas is gorgeous. He's everything you would want in a man. But I want a woman."
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abzug
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In love with a prisoner
abzug
 
It's way past time for Natalia and Olivia to be kissing if you ask me.

TOTALLY!!!! I hope nothing I said above implies that I'm ok with the lack of kissing between these two. I just think what they're doing with Otalia right now is NOT an example of the long homophobic tradition of lesbians being depicted onscreen as miserable and lovelorn and alone, and heterosexuals as happy. (There are too many examples of this to list, but most recently that horrible UK miniseries with Eva Pope from Bad Girls--can't remember the name.)

OK, so, four married women telling this story, but then WHO is the dyke in the photo? Because she's clearly in charge, they're talking about the script (as opposed to doing makeup or something), and she's gay. Because it's not that straight women can't ask their gay friends and get input and advice, but those tiny little touches and moments are just the kind of thing that a gay friend might never mention when telling a straight friend about their coming out, or the first time they fell in love with someone of the same sex. These feel like "you had to be there" moments, so small that they'd seem insignificant in the context of the larger narrative.

cagey
 
We all know that Nat was going in for it. Olivia didn't think Nat was ready for it.

I think Nat was thinking about going in for it. Or, it was almost like she was doing it without consciously making the decision to do it. Like Olivia's lips were drawing her in, without her fully understanding why, or how, or what she was about to do. It's not a direct beeline for the kiss, if you notice. Her eyes are moving all over the place, glancing down at Olivia's lips, and then elsewhere, then back to the lips, and her face is close, but not necessarily moving closer. It's like, she might do it, if given another second, but she's not sure she's going to do it, and maybe not even fully aware of what she's going to do. That's why she can jump back so quickly and act relatively normal. If she had been consciously aware of wanting to kiss Olivia, and purposefully moving in to do it, her jump back would have been a lot more guilty.

As for what Olivia thought, I thought she wasn't sure if they were ready for it, both of them. Was she ready to move beyond her self-definition as sexy-to-men? Were they ready to actually contemplate or have a physical relationship? I didn't think she stopped the kiss to save Natalia from doing something, when she herself (Olivia) wanted to do it.

cagey
 
I can't imagine someone who has some reputation for professionalism would let her personal religious convictions get in the way of a good story

I just don't think she'd have been inspired to tell THIS story, about a religious woman who struggles between her faith and her sexuality. And comes down on the side of sexuality. But maybe you're right, maybe she's a Mormon who hates her church's teachings about sexuality, and so this is exactly the story she wants to tell, about someone who grapples with their sexuality in the context of their religious faith, and finds a way to have true (same-sex) love without giving up that faith.
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marymartin
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abzug
Jul 15 2009, 02:12 PM


OK, so, four married women telling this story, but then WHO is the dyke in the photo? \

That is Ellen Wheeler, ex Morman, married with kids. If she's a dyke she isn't admitting to it.
"Thomas is gorgeous. He's everything you would want in a man. But I want a woman."
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