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| Otalia - Guiding Light | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 29 2009, 06:54 PM (21,269 Views) | |
| ekny | Jul 15 2009, 04:03 PM Post #346 |
In love with a prisoner
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I'm not sure what a specific person's sexuality has to do with the strength or relative merits of the story being told. I'm really not comfortable with that any more. I just read a terrific young adult novel about 2 lesbians. By a guy. Never thought I'd say it, but--it was just as good as anything (and better than a lot of things) I've read by lesbians. I think that's very rare, for a man to be able to do that... but evidently it does happen. (How'm I doing, liberal-wise? Thought so. Hey, I'm a sport.) No one had an issue with Shed being comprised of 3 dykes and 1 gay man... until they had an issue with Series 3. And then--no one cared. It was suddenly irrelevant. (Or even more of a 'betrayal'.) People's expectations or political demands or hopes for the storyline weren't being met in the way they wanted them to be met & some of them went ballistic. No, this isn't the same thing because (in my mind) there's no comparison. But it feels weirdly similar, structurally, in terms of audience response. Do I personally think at least 1 person somewhere in the writing team is a dyke or has at least been involved with another woman? Of course. It's obvious. It's as obvious as it was when I first started watching Bad Girls that it was written by lesbians, specifically. For the reasons we've discussed endlessly on this board, & which Abzug also just summarized again: the details. But it's irrelevant to whether the story's ultimately told successfully or otherwise. I think it's simply a way of people looking for some solid fact, some piece of data, to reassure themselves about where the story's going. But if I were telling a story about some guy or whatever, I sure wouldn't like people making assumptions about my credentials. That's what imagination's supposed to be for. *** I always read the hospital thing as just barely on the edge of something conscious, myself. & thought JL played that really well, the sort of irresistable draw she can't quite do anything about. But there's a kind of sonambulism about it that means it's equally easy to read as unconscious rather than conscious. It's probably her best bit of work. Imo. Working off 3 hrs sleep so that's all I can manage for now. |
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| molsongrrrl | Jul 15 2009, 04:58 PM Post #347 |
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G2 landing
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I'm feeling that for sure with Otalia. Too many people just heaping on and being negative about everything. Do I think they should be kissing? Hell to the yeah. Do I think the pregnancy is stupid? Again - you bet. But in the end, the writers don't have an obligation to make everyone happy. They don't have to tell a politically correct story. They don't have to fulfill all wishes and demands of the audience. They have to tell the story they set out to tell. Whatever that may be. And wherever that may take us. Of course, then its up to me and everyone else to decide if they want to watch it! But flipping out endlessly about how the storyline has failed in this way and in that - just seems silly. That's not to say I haven't had those moments myself (reading about the potential Franknspawn set me off for sure but I've been talked back from the ledge by a few people) - but right now I know I'm here to the end and along for the ride.
I think there is a purpose here and its kind of soap 101. Rafe continues his casual bits of abuse and maybe Olivia gets a few shots in too. But somewhere along the line she does something which causes him to see her in a new light and thusly some bonding can begin. I would hope the writers do make some progress with Olivia and Rafe while Natalia is gone. I'm not a fan of Rafe, but like it or not - he is Natalia's son and does play a role in their family and relationship. |
| There's nothing wrong with you that a little Prozac and a polo mallet can't cure. | |
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| solitasolano | Jul 15 2009, 11:26 PM Post #348 |
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So today I've spent way too much time trying to track down writers and then directors; thinking about the Otalia s/l and writing. I just end up getting way bogged down in the details and enjoying what I watch/see (that is all 4/24/09 clips and earlier...not as much drawn in after this point). Matched episode directors to all my favorite episodes (again 4/24 or earlier). Thought I found a pattern of who directed the best lesbian love moments and then realize they're all one big happy family and no one person is making this thing we call Otalia happen. So I'm left with only one comment, inspiration for the day. Enjoy. Go to 2:34 at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOY3_NhCX2Q |
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| marymartin | Jul 16 2009, 12:37 AM Post #349 |
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The ghost of Larkhall!
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For me, it's not about agendas or politics. It's about equal treatment. It seems to me that the same sex couple is not being treated like the hetro couples on the show. The lack of kissing I have already commented on. If you're going to tell a love story, let's carry it through. The day that I really thought the double standard was blatently obvious was the episode where Bill and Lizzie were in bed, having just made love for the billionth time and their female relatives -- two mothers, a grandmother and a great-aunt -- all came in and started planning the wedding with zero comment about them being naked in bed. I mean, come on -- that's okay but a simple kiss between Natalia and Olivia is going to offend some little old lady in Idaho?!! :rolleyes: I was frustrated with what I perceive as real deviations from who these characters are (or were) at the time of the non-wedding and now, as well as the lack of kissing when they hit us with the pregnancy plot. At the end of the day, it's their story to tell. I just am not enjoying the journey as much as I was between October and April. Also, I think in some ways, people's expectations were built up way too much and many people, myself included, got emotionally invested. When the pedestal for the writers is so high, it's a long fall down. |
| "Thomas is gorgeous. He's everything you would want in a man. But I want a woman." | |
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| abzug | Jul 16 2009, 01:08 AM Post #350 |
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In love with a prisoner
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I was rewatching the post-wedding episodes on YouTube today, and I have to agree that I wish they had taken things in another direction entirely. I wish that they hadn't spent so long with these two trying to "figure out" what they were to each other. They could have gotten together as a couple, and Nat could still have realistically grappled with the religious issue while in the relationship. I mean, I'm still invested in the story and the relationship, I just wish they had done it another way. But I can also take the story as it's unfolding, and appreciate what works about it, and find a lot of things to like. So I guess I really see both sides on this one. |
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| cagey | Jul 16 2009, 03:33 AM Post #351 |
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G3 Curtain and Duvet!
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We all have our coping mechanisms, and mine has been to read all sorts of academic shite on The Soap Opera and The Viewer Thereof. In what other medium of story telling can you say - mid-plot - that you'd wished it had gone another way? The interactivity of soap watching, the discussion of what things mean or don't mean or might mean is essential to the enjoyment of the story. So abzug I think you are totally entitled to have it both ways.
That's a very valid criticism. Deviation from character - I could go there, but here's the thing with Natalia: we just don't know. We don't know how much of what she was saying, for instance, the "I'm tired of waiting" comes from a place that she is comfortable with, or a place of wanting -- wanting to be tired of waiting, wanting to please Olivia, wanting to jump right in and take a risk. Until she returns, and, I totally am convinced, declares herself all in, we just don't know if there has been a character assassination. As for equal treatment - again, I completely agree with you, but the status of Bill and Lizzie is not the same as Olivia and Natalia, who are not yet a Couple. The kissing thing is stupid, accepted, but it is what it is. I am not here for the visuals as much as I am here for the story. For real. A good story of 2 women who never thought they would love like this, love someone so "inappropriate" within the confines of their individual world views, and who have to sort it out. I am so impressed between abzug watching earlier clips and solitasolano researching directors and writers - I guess you don't have an Infosec in your work lives, if you know what I mean. Thanks solitasolano for checking out the directors, that would have been totally cool, if, there was a pattern. On the other hand it being - I almost wrote collective, but we know that ain't true - a collaborative process is good.
Just to close with another aspect of the soap watching theory -- this is exactly the point. Especially now with internet instant communication. A far cry from the chatting over the fence while hanging laundry, but still how a soap functions. We all get extremely excited, unhinged, angry over what we think might happen, and then! something else happens instead. But with a soap, in for a penny, in for a pound. |
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| abzug | Jul 16 2009, 03:30 PM Post #352 |
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In love with a prisoner
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Interesting article from Daytime Confidential about the challenges of winding down Guiding Light for the end of the series. http://www.daytimeconfidential.com/2009/07...uiding-twilight Great description/framing of the Otalia storyline: "However, I would argue that the foundation of Olivia — whose portrayer Chappell has been giving one incredible performance after another — and Natalia's (Jessica Leccia) love story is its spiritual component. It's about one woman who never thought she had a soul and how she finally found it and how another woman whose soul had always been defined by others comes to terms with a way to set hers free. " |
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| ekny | Jul 16 2009, 03:36 PM Post #353 |
In love with a prisoner
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Spoiler for Los hombros de paco which although not relevant, is... another side of the coin: They apparently just killed off Sylvie (sp?), or fatally wounded her or something. I've never seen a minute of this but am willing to put cash down that she's the 'real' dyke of the couple. And in a majority Catholic country, this should surprise... no one. Maybe next season her gf can commit suicide! Now there's a twofer. |
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| abzug | Jul 16 2009, 04:00 PM Post #354 |
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In love with a prisoner
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Any particular links/articles you'd recommend? I'd love to read more.... |
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| ekny | Jul 16 2009, 04:07 PM Post #355 |
In love with a prisoner
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Abzug, I appreciated the link. And found the rest of her writing interesting &... informative: "This is the type of internal, character-driven tension at which soap opera excels. This dynamic puts the seeming broadminded acceptance of "Otalia" by many of Springfield's most prominent residents into stark relief: the conflict that affects us most is not from external forces but from internal turmoil. This explains why I haven't been upset about the lack of physical or sexual intimacy between the two women as of this writing; nor, unlike so many others, am I particularly upset about Natalia's pregnancy by Frank. In my opinion, this last minute twist is absolutely no different than if it were a typical soap story where a woman sleeps with two men and winds up pregnant by "the wrong one." Whatever the deficiencies of that old cliche, it's still pure soap opera and I cannot bring myself to employ a double standard to Olivia and Natalia, wishing they would be treated like any other couple but exempt them from the trials and tribulations of the genre's conventions." Seen in context, her argument has its merits. And I found the readers' comments also <koff> interesting. Some very angry people there. And her response, basically, seems to be: you can throw around world like heteronormative paradigms til the cows come home, but this couple where neither character fits ANY paradigm (I assume she means: yet) doesn't fall within the purview of that argument. |
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| molsongrrrl | Jul 16 2009, 04:55 PM Post #356 |
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You know what though? While she's right about the pregnancy thing - certainly characters tend to be punished by sleeping with the wrong person and end up pregnant all the time on these shows. But my issue is more about the timing. If they had made Natalia pregnant a month or so after the horrid night of sex with Frank, I wouldn't have been happy - but it wouldn't have surprised me either. The truth is, I kept waiting for it to happen, but once we were two or three months past that awful event - I figured we were safe. Having Natalia suddenly discover her pregnancy nearly 5 months after the fact is stupid. Having her suddenly throwing up and having symptoms in like a day is not only stupid, but lazy. This makes Natalia seem like the dumbest character ever - but it also makes Olivia seem a bit clueless too. I mean come on - 4 or 5 months into a pregnancy a woman's body goes through changes and neither noticed?!? It also makes the potential Franknspawn seem very much tacked on. And that more than anything else is my issue with it. They had plenty of time and warning to come up with a way to send Natalia out of town. The writers chose (in my opinion) the laziest, dumbest way possible. |
| There's nothing wrong with you that a little Prozac and a polo mallet can't cure. | |
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| solitasolano | Jul 16 2009, 06:03 PM Post #357 |
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I failed to mention my favorite episodes were all directed by men. The 3 episode non-wedding arch (edited to happen over 4 epis) was directed by Wheeler. IMDB credits only the 4 head writers. Jill Lorie Hurst is the only woman. A good two paragraphs in the linked article. abzug amd ekny thanks pointing to the significant quotes. “One woman who never had a soul”. Olivia Spencer without a soul? No!!!!. It’s good to read this comment. As a recent viewer I only experienced Olivia finding her soul, never without it so it’s good for perspective. Interesting about, how “prominent” SF residences easily accepted Otalia, more so, then the two women themselves, and certainly more so than the Natalia half of the duo. I’m amazed how long ago Olivia “comes out” about her feelings for Natalia to other characters. She tells Bill Jr. and Jefferry as early as the 2/16 and 2/24 episodes. Philip surmises as much and assures her that he doesn’t care, also in the 2/24 episode. Doris assumes early on, and much latter, Blake is so into notion that Emma’s two mommies are a couple she wants to throw them a party. Olivia and Natalia, not so much on the accepting side. Mostly with the endless questions, ‘what does this mean.” That's where the story is. molsongrrl, for some reason, the pregnancy thing has never bothered me, but I understand where you’re coming from. I can suspend the “soap” time frame. Rather, I have been bothered by the lack of physical contact between the two women, and not just the kissing and sex type, but just plain touching. After re-bonding over the spaghetti dinner, Natalia is portrayed as asexual for the duration so far. We seldom witness a movement to closeness and touch. Most of the time the women stand 4 feet away from each other or clench hands together over their hearts. There been plenty of missed opportunities for the small intimacies, like when Natalia lightly body bumps Olivia when she comes around the business office bed to find the spreadsheet in O’s files. I remain thrilled by the writing and portrayal of this relationship as least up through the beginning of May (I belatedly agree with you marymartin about the writing since Aprill). I’ll always have that. |
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| molsongrrrl | Jul 16 2009, 06:32 PM Post #358 |
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Ah but in this case, we actually can't. We know exactly when Natalia and Frank slept together - it was shortly after Valentine's Day - they were going away for the weekend and then Coop got into an accident and died. She discovered her pregnancy basically on the 4th of July - we know this because it was the BBQ. So there's no hedging the dates - there's no way to say well soap time is different because in this case ... its not!
Well to be fair - JL got pretty big - maybe that's as close as CC could get! Hahahaha. I don't know ... I thought they were doing quite a bit of touching during the last couple of months ... the lack of kissing annoys me but it seemed like we got a lot of face touching etc lately. Hmmm ... maybe I need to hit youtube again ... |
| There's nothing wrong with you that a little Prozac and a polo mallet can't cure. | |
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| solitasolano | Jul 16 2009, 08:24 PM Post #359 |
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Yeah, I meant to add: face touching notwithstanding. You're right there's been plenty of that. |
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| abzug | Jul 16 2009, 09:15 PM Post #360 |
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In love with a prisoner
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E, re: your LHDP spoiler, she actually wasn't the "dyke" in the relationship, she was the straight woman who fell for the out dyke. So in that sense I guess there's (microscopic) progress. But the whole thing is just so appalling. I mean, really. I've actually been torn, because on the one hand I'm annoyed that GL hasn't shown the physical side of Olivia and Natalia's relationship, which LHDP showed quite explicitly between Pepa and Sylvia. On the other hand, would I prefer ... a happy ending of a borderline asexual relationship, or a horrible, lesbians-can-never-be-happy ending of a very sexy, explicit relationship? Honestly, I'm just not sure right now. Although the question I keep asking is why can't we have both?!?! |
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8:46 AM Jul 11