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| Otalia - Guiding Light | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 29 2009, 06:54 PM (21,268 Views) | |
| ekny | Jul 16 2009, 10:25 PM Post #361 |
In love with a prisoner
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Molsongrrrl, I agree entirely. I honestly do. You know I do. But those are standards that have something to do with *reality*. You know. Where WE live. Not people on frackin soap operas. Far as I was concerned, once they didn't kiss after declaring themselves to each other--I knew everything I needed to about where the show was not going. Because that has nothing to do with reality. As we all know.The bitch is: it doesn't have anything to do with the reality of straight people on soaps, either. I understand that's the sticking point. Just... not much to be done. Which leads me to commiserate with Abzug (and thank her for clarifying! Lost my bet, damn...). My only conclusion is: actual love between women with an erotic component really is still that threatening. Which is pretty hard to take in, in my world. I mean--really. Really? Huh. I live in a state (though every other place I've lived it hasn't mattered a damn, either) where no one gives a crap because grownups have lives, jobs (if they're lucky), families, and well, other things to think about. I've been out my whole life. I just can't believe there's still this much of a fuss. And the thing is... that kinda makes their argument for them. Not the possible homophobes on CBS who killed the show or are screwing with the storyline or are shitcanning a simple kiss or two, even. But if the scriptwriters actually believed there was this kind of opposition, and lo & behold--there is this kind of opposition.... Well, I'm left scratching my head. What can we do but yell Everyone get over it?! Seriously. The lesson of Shed is that you have to own the means of production and control as much of the process as possible. Even then they ran into trouble with the network, from all accounts. But it got us the best possible result, & I can't think that factor is incidental. (I'm not making a marxist-anarco argument because look where Shed is now. I'm not making a pro-capitalist argument for obvious reasons. I'm just saying there's a critical economic component that is in the end the final arbiter of what we see... if there is indeed anything worth seeing. I would make the same argument about a show like Deadwood, actually, in reverse: a high-quality show got tanked for financial reasons, and no others, while an expensive failure like Rome was continued because the assumption was they'd make up their losses with revenues from overseas sales. [The same reason Shed continues to control their Bad Girls' property so tightly, I assume.]) Anyway. Sorry. End of today's speed-rap. later gaters. ...oh. Except this: that would seem to bode well for this new CC project. I wish I thought so. Not because of any of the specifics, but because there is no business model for web series that works, financially. Yet. Without it, nothing lasts. Not Joss Whedon's 'successful' free show, not SoN--nothing anything that has yet happened on the web (far as I know--I could always be wrong again though, batting 1000 so far! :D) They'll figure it out but it hasn't happened yet. So we might get half a dozen, 10 episodes of 8-10 minutes length & that's nice but I don't see how it could last. Be happy to be proved wrong. Be happier if it's quality, & interesting. ETA: Further possibilities: it's NOT that big of a damn fuss. TV viewers are savvier than that. Perhaps Guiding Light made a mistake assuming its audience was quite as backwards as they assumed. Never talk down to the audience, right? never assume they're stupider than they are. Except on American tv. It would seem CBS is that backwards, however. And between CBS & this unhappy mixed-result on GL, maybe we see 1) why soaps are dying 2) why network tv deserves to die, and 3) why other business models are called for. Or something like that. |
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| abzug | Jul 17 2009, 02:21 AM Post #362 |
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In love with a prisoner
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I agree with your entire post, e. I mean, in the end, you also have to give credit to the crap which was The L Word, because although it was not artistically successful in any way, simply by showing sexually explicit romantic relationships between women, and not having any (whoops, many) of them die, they accomplished something huge. As much as it pains me to acknowledge that, both b/c the show sucked, and b/c haven't we come further than that?!?! Of course, they weren't ad supported, so perhaps it doesn't count. As for the potential of a web series, I'll take that over to the web series thread (which I'm trying to get going, people! it only takes 8 minutes to watch an episiode! do it and we can discuss!). Overall I'm just depressed about where we're at these days with cultural acceptance of gays. Part of me thinks, hey, we can't expect a medium like ad-supported tv to lead the way. But then part of me looks back at a show like "Soap" which was on 30 years ago (and is particularly applicable in this thread, given the show we're discussing) and it was more progressive in showing a gay character than most shows on today. So wtf? And are we really that scary now, in a way that we weren't in the 1970s? So scary that we have to be killed, at least in fictional form? |
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| cagey | Jul 17 2009, 02:55 AM Post #363 |
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G3 Curtain and Duvet!
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A couple of things. The pregnancy: this is only going to be an issue if Natalia feels in any way it is also Frank's baby. I know that is the greatest fear out there but I believe Natalia is capable of seeing a baby as a gift to be treasured just like Rafe was. I have no reason to believe she would feel beholden to Frank - marrying him was not on the stated agenda when she left town. Agenda being: Discuss: bigger sin? sex out of marriage or loving a woman. She'll have to conclude neither - won't she? Talking up or down to the audience: This must depend on where one is sitting. Those of us over in the lesbian bleachers have a distinct impression and *interpretation* about what is going on with the story line. Or better what should be going on with the story line. We are in the what's the big deal school of thought. And we make an instinctive leap that quite possibly the writers never did about the nature of the story. Seriously, I doubt the writers and producers said - let's have a hot lesbian story with our slightly mature women characters! Entre Nous (1983) covers very similar ground (though way prettier cinematically) and also without kisses. The film's title in French, Coup de foudre, I think really expresses the sense of dumbfounded confusion that those two women felt about their connection as much as it does in Otalia. abzug I can't say I've found much that really answers some questions I had about soaps and the watching there of. Most of the writers seem to start very confessional about their own soap watching habits. And it is like this topic was discussed at the end of the last century and has not been picked up since. In terms of a classic feminist take there is: http://www.genders.org/g28/g28_intensities.html And this seems to be the dude who is all things soap, writing about the "soap experience". I am not sure if I buy his arguments totally, but the commentary on the interactivity of soap watching and soap community is interesting. http://web.mit.edu/comm-forum/mit5/papers/Ford_Soap_Fans.pdf Finally, this is the land where soaps meet academy: http://www.convergenceculture.org/weblog/archives.php But I'm betting there will be Otalia papers pouring into the conferences very soon;) |
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| ekny | Jul 17 2009, 05:00 AM Post #364 |
In love with a prisoner
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Ooh. Weekend reading! Thanks for the links. An aside: Entre Nous (a longtime fav of the ek's) got a fair amount of flack at the time of its release from lesbian/feminist viewers who were way irked by its refusal to make the connection between the two women explicit with so much as a single kiss. It bothered (and bothers) me not at all: there is simply no way to read the film without taking an erotic/sexual connection into account. It literally doesn't make sense without that component. Something, it's true, several very stupid (famous) reviewers didn't get or refused to get. Plus it's a gorgeous movie. With two wonderful performances by two very handsome women in their prime. Isabelle Huppert? Come on. It's a great performance: subtle, intelligent, moving. I couldn't ask for more. Okay, except for a re-release of the film with director's commentary. Only books I can think of offhand that covers this same territory with *both* women coming to a relationship with no prior background we know of are Some Girls... and Daughters of Jerusalem. Would love to know if there are more. It's a very specialized arena, it would seem. |
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| cagey | Jul 17 2009, 05:34 AM Post #365 |
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G3 Curtain and Duvet!
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"Entre Nous" is a film about a relationship between two women as perceived from the perspective of a child. Another parallel perhaps. abzug I am a dim person. Where is this web thread? Don't even get me started on where we are now vs where we were in the 70s regarding representations in film of gays. |
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| ekny | Jul 17 2009, 06:00 AM Post #366 |
In love with a prisoner
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http://z4.invisionfree.com/Nikki_and_Helen...?showtopic=2073 re: entre nous... mm, yes & no. Only some scenes, but we can discuss it offline.
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| abzug | Jul 17 2009, 01:02 PM Post #367 |
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In love with a prisoner
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How about you discuss Entre Nous in the lesbian films thread? That way we can all enjoy. :-) http://z4.invisionfree.com/Nikki_and_Helen...opic=378&st=255 On a topic unrelated to lesbian sexuality, but related to Guiding Light, I was reading a review of the new production of Phaedra, starring Helen Mirren, and it had a great description of the main character, which I thought was spot on for Olivia too: "Phedra is a sensational early example of this self-aggrandizing breed whose sexuality takes the form of scene-making. Phedra is a gourmand of grief: she stuffs herself on shame, binges on lamentation, gobbles down grievance. The exhibition of her suffering is both an act of abdication and an unforgettable attack. [...] Phedra's pain is real; it is also, however, a form of seduction, an unconscious strategy to bind the world's attention to her. [...] Mirren finds deep seams of emotional truth that transcend Racine's structural contrivances. She parses Phedra's brazen abasement with an excitement that manages to suggest both self-destruction and sensuality, both guilt and predatory wiles." Oh, and cagey, thanks for the links! |
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| ekny | Jul 17 2009, 03:24 PM Post #368 |
In love with a prisoner
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Helen Mirren is the (#$%ing BOMB. We're talking about a 64-year-old woman doing this role. *That's* seriously cool. |
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| ekny | Jul 17 2009, 10:55 PM Post #369 |
In love with a prisoner
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My my. Quite the encomium for a rapist. ps: this couple is so getting together. The scriptwriting for Olivia's parts today weren't anywhere near subtext. |
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| solitasolano | Jul 17 2009, 11:37 PM Post #370 |
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Poignant sobbing while clutching a picture of your loved ones means "this couple is so getting together"? Fine by me....still the angst and I feel Olivia's pain. I guess it didn't help the character that Jellybean said, "I know, I miss Natalia, too." I lost count at how many "alone" references there were...6 or 7 I believe and not all in reference to Olivia. Nice for this still newbie to see scenes where Olivia interacts with SF folks as youtubin is rather couplular (could that be a word?) On a production note can I just ask, spiked heels in the mud next to a stream?...hey, why not. He he. |
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| Jeanna | Jul 18 2009, 12:44 AM Post #371 |
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I said SIT IN THAT CHAIR
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Olivia: I'm glad he found real love, he deserved that. Shane: Yeh, we all deserve that. That's what you meant, ain't it, dearie? <G> |
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H&N Music Vid by me and ekny Something To Talk About YouTube My BG Music Vids On YouTube My vids You Tube removed Click Here OR HERE BAM for Beginners BAM Channel | |
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| solitasolano | Jul 18 2009, 01:13 AM Post #372 |
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"We all deserve that" OHHHH that one.
It wouldn't be spoilage to say, well isn't this the whole point! |
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| abzug | Jul 18 2009, 01:26 AM Post #373 |
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In love with a prisoner
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Yeah, it did all feel a little over the top today, didn't it? I did kind of wish she had just fallen onto the bed crying without clutching the photo. It wasn't necessary--we knew what she was upset about. I mean, Emma told us, for god's sake! (I thought Emma's line about missing Natalia was really sweet. From the mouths of babes, eh? Especially this very emotionally wise little girl.) Thank god CC is so damn good at the crying scenes. She's got all different styles of crying, kind of like Inuit words for snow. Even so it's starting to feel a tiny bit monotonous. So, Olivia chose to go to the farmhouse porch to call Ava? She's a total glutton for punishment. One other minor interesting thought: when Josh called she picked up the phone and said "Natalia?" which is weird, because has she been doing that every time the phone rings for the last two weeks? Or was it because she was missing Natalia so much, and wishing she would call, that she thought she could make it happen just through sheer desire? No, more likely they've now set up the Josh reveal, because it's the second time Olivia has slipped about Natalia in front of him. So now it can't be out of the blue--she's given him three clues (the phone call, the moment with the blanket at the bbq, and her not sleeping with him after they kissed). |
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| Jeanna | Jul 18 2009, 01:51 AM Post #374 |
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I said SIT IN THAT CHAIR
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Oh, that's good. That's very good. <G> (I don't think it's monotonous, however, just too bloody damn much angst and I can't take no more.) And you are so right about the Josh set-up. And my jaw kind of dropped when I saw she went out to the farmhouse to call Ava. But she wouldn't be any more upset than she already was (about Natalia, about Jeffrey) by being there--and it would probably give her some kind of solace even while feeding the masochism of going there. |
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H&N Music Vid by me and ekny Something To Talk About YouTube My BG Music Vids On YouTube My vids You Tube removed Click Here OR HERE BAM for Beginners BAM Channel | |
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| ekny | Jul 18 2009, 02:36 AM Post #375 |
In love with a prisoner
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Not just that line... let's see. Oh no. I'll have to watch Olivia shutting the door on Emma again. Daymn. w/Dinah-- O: I don't want to give her bad news, she's been through so much & she's alone. And it's hard to deal with the things that are bad when you're alone. S: What about you, who are you going home to? [...] O: I'm glad he found real love, you know, he deserved that. S: Yeah. We all deserve that. at bar-- M: Jeffrey & I both met the loves of our lives here, we both met beautiful amazing women. And we both had children that we never imagined we would have. The camerawork here is sloppy--O's not in this praise-filled tribute, or it'd have been pretty clear this could easily have been read as being about her, too. Instead we get another shot of O. on the 'alone' thing, as mentioned above. I dibs Abzug gets Apt Phrase of the Week award for the Inuit thing. Totally. |
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But those are standards that have something to do with *reality*. You know. Where WE live. Not people on frackin soap operas. Far as I was concerned, once they didn't kiss after declaring themselves to each other--I knew everything I needed to about where the show was not going. Because that has nothing to do with reality. As we all know.





8:46 AM Jul 11