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Otalia - Guiding Light
Topic Started: Mar 29 2009, 06:54 PM (21,255 Views)
ekny
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In love with a prisoner
Oh cranky sigh, how very American this all is... yes I'll follow the script with this non-drinking storyline, and yes I realize in RL this much drinking is not so great & yes with the pregnancy, yes yes yes. But I love drunk Olivia. I adore her. She's funny as sh*te. So since the show's going off the air I can live with it but only for that reason. A scrubbed-up goodie-goodie Olivia would be the kiss of death, far as I'm concerned: how dull. All I can say is she better be getting a whole lotta play to compensate.

As for the biblical rereading--whoever came up with that is damn clever. Great post, Jeanna, thanks! :)
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cagey
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ekny
 
A scrubbed-up goodie-goodie Olivia would be the kiss of death, far as I'm concerned: how dull. All I can say is she better be getting a whole lotta play to compensate.


Dollars to donuts, if the show wasn't canceled Olivia falling off the wagon would be high on the list of possible plot twists.

solitasolanp
 
Plus with pregnant Nat, no drinking and alcohol consumption at the farmhouse in the near future is a good idea.


Let's see, Nat's had an occasional glass of white wine and she tossed back a couple of PLCKS with Rafe and Frank... did Olivia drink much in the FoL? Dinner with Decker, yeah, but I think Nat kept her on a pretty short leash to begin with since it is contra-indicated for Gus' heart. Her tab at Towers must be astronomical. :o

Jeanna Thanks for the Ruth/Naomi - I do think the writers intended that allusion and that's probably where they are going.

As to the spoiler pic and your in denial friend, I'm pretty sure I know the pic of which you speak. You can see it on our spoiler thread, which is one unspoiled spoiler thread - I don't think we know much more than you do. The gigantic black purse is gone, yes, but I believe the angle of the photo is deceptive. ;)
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solitasolano
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Oh, sh*t I didn't be all spoilage with my no drinking during pregnancy comment....in my very first post on this story made less than a month ago, I said there was no way pregnant Natalia was going to
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Natalie is definitely going to come back pregnant. One does not go to a religious retreat, a nunnery in particular and decide to end a pregnancy.
She's going to come back to SF still pregnant.

I also think that Natalia tried to tell Olivia that she thought she was pregnant right before she even got to look at the results that she stashed in her purse (her giant purse). But Olivia is giddy and going on about family and the bbq, doesn't notice and talks right over her. See what you think. @6:15 if the time stamp doesn't work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWzIueI0gnY#t=6m15s
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abzug
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I agree I think Natalia was going to tell Olivia in that moment, and then just couldn't, given where Olivia was coming from. And that wound up being the problem, the reason Nat left without talking to Liv, because she couldn't bear to disappoint her, to see her as unhappy as Nat feared she would be, if she knew the news.
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cagey
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abzug
 
I agree I think Natalia was going to tell Olivia in that moment, and then just couldn't, given where Olivia was coming from. And that wound up being the problem, the reason Nat left without talking to Liv, because she couldn't bear to disappoint her, to see her as unhappy as Nat feared she would be, if she knew the news.


That is a very interesting observation. It does explain the lack of message to Olivia, but it is again her concerns for someone else's feelings driving her behavior, which is not so good. But it is entirely plausible, given Natalia's tendency to do for others at the expense of herself.

That scene was certainly our manic Olivia steamrolling past and not paying attention to where Natalia was. Gads I am so looking forward to Natalia coming back from her retreat with a true sense of who she is and what she wants.

And just as a PS - Rafe could disappear tomorrow and I would not be sad. I am hoping that one of the things Nat figures out during her meditation in the nunnery is that he is a grown man and has to deal on his own.
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solitasolano
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abzug from the Other Place
 
I think when they didn't have a kiss in May, or early June at the latest, the time was past. SOOOOOOOOOOOO frustrating and disappointing, since it's clear how much CC and JL can bring it, particularly CC, and particularly with each other. I hate mainstream pop culture sometimes. Why does it have to be so homophobic?

You know what? I had a bad feeling from the sex shop episode on. I know so many others found that storyline amusing, but I felt like it was showing Olivia as completely sexually neutered in her relationship with Natalia, and I didn't like the implications of that: that women are happy being with each other without sex; that True Love doesn't need a sexual component; that the show can only show lesbians if they never call themselves lesbians and never actually have a sexual relationship.
Re. sexual frustration vs. true love doesn't need a sexual component (ah those herstoric passionate friendships-ugh): I made a count of the number of times in May that, primarily, Olivia faced rejection or disappointment in the relationship and moving forward. I started to count the number of times starting in June thinking that waiting was the theme. Imagine my surprise (argh) when waiting mentions were interrupted by sexual frustration mentions either demonstrated or eluded to. By mid June I had counted 10 such references up to the "if sex doesn't happen" episode. And here I thought June was all about waiting, well no. The references go on forever. Shall I? (starting 6/9 to 6/12 - 4 episodes total)
1) don't touch my muffin
2) cookie making/eating/hand feeding
3) Olivia in satin robe from her bed calling Nat on the phone "I've got our cookies here"
4) Blake and the romance novel
5) Josh "maybe I'll jiggle it" car start test kiss
6) Upright facing dog groans
7) dildo shopping (scene conts in next episode)
8) Olivia and Blake talk, "I'd give up sex in an instant just to have one hour with him"
9) Throws dildo in trash
10) "If sex never happens" talk

Enough already with sexless, or even worst, asexual lesbians....abzug, just be glad you haven't lived through an addition 25 yrs or homophobic media like some of us have.
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abzug
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solitasolano
Aug 2 2009, 10:33 PM
abzug, just be glad you haven't lived through an addition 25 yrs or homophobic media like some of us have.

I may be younger than some of y'all, but I came out really young, so I've been at this lesbian media watching thing since LA Law in 1991. I consider myself a battle-hardened veteran of the trenches. But no, it's not 25 years, that's true. :)
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ekny
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I'm interested as to how or why we all periodically (hmmm...) get more antsy about this. (Yes that includes me.) But people. It's not going to change. That's been clear since April. They've had all the time in the world to do that; they have not done that. They came into this with the whole labelless label, and though that's of course fallen by the wayside, my original point stands: it gets us thus far and that is all. It gets us to April. And no further.

We can agree, I think, that the show might well have squandered a great chance, and in the meantime, done a disservice to one segment of its audience, its actors, and most of all--and most ironically--its storyline by desexualizing the relationship in this way. But if you assume they are assuming a 1950's wartime head which says lots of women bonding lovingly while their husbands were away, it doesn't have to mean YouKnow, and if it does it's noneofourbusiness etc, then it makes sense. But most of all... at the risk of emphasizing it again: pink bunnies. Cute! Harmless! ...yannow?
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abzug
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ekny
 
That's been clear since April. They've had all the time in the world to do that; they have not done that. They came into this with the whole labelless label, and though that's of course fallen by the wayside, my original point stands: it gets us thus far and that is all. It gets us to April. And no further.

Right, although I'd give them some leeway on the timing. I mean, in the end, all of this was decided when Natalia didn't come in for coffee. And while they could have used the subsequent few weeks to show a storyline where Natalia overcame her uncomfortableness from not coming in for coffee to having Olivia stay over at the FoL, they decided not to do this. So I would have given them to the end of May to get Liv and Nat from freakedoutatthewedding to happylesbianlovers. But that's not what they did, and now there's no reason to hope for anything else.
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cagey
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abzug
 
I mean, in the end, all of this was decided when Natalia didn't come in for coffee. And while they could have used the subsequent few weeks to show a storyline where Natalia overcame her uncomfortableness from not coming in for coffee to having Olivia stay over at the FoL, they decided not to do this.


Lately I've been thinking that when Natalia returns, if she invites Olivia over to the FoL and they go in and close the door, that will be the implication of crossing the threshold of intimacy. As Natalia said that night, if she came inside, everything would change. She didn't and nothing has.

I can't say I've been antsy about this ever. My anxieties always centered around what would happen after they got together, not if they would. It is both good and bad that the show is ending. It will most likely end ambigiously as to just how lesbonic they are, but in the "they lived happily ever after" mood.

If the soap had continued, I would have expected sex to be an underlying tension between them. If they became a committed lesbian couple, then they would be marginalized within the context of a soap's never ending pairing and re-pairing of couples. If they were not exactly sexual, but In Love, the possibilities for temptation and straying and jealousy are ripe.

Perhaps the antsy-ness comes from the collective desire to see these images even as we know they will not happen. And maybe they never could happen within the confines of this story. Ya gotta wonder just how far this story went in the writers minds. We all *know* where it went in our minds. I know some people can pretty quickly conclude that the writers have no business thinking they can play with a storyline like this and defensibly argue that it is "labelless" love in this day and age. But within the very peculiar world of soap opera, maybe they think they can. I guess I just accept it as it is.

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solitasolano
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abzug
 
when Natalia didn't come in for coffee
I mean how could Natalia resist that face inside the door is beyond me? Although I think all things were decided (no physical relationship) as the women leave for the spa. Remember Nat brings her over packed suitcases to Olivia’s hotel room. After a little discussion Nat asks (didn’t relisten to exact wording so something like this), “Should I leave some of this here?” Olivia spells it out, “No you take half your closet and I’ll take the other half. A closet on wheels.” That spa get away was so not going to anywheres.

I only jumped into this show in July. Natalia had already split. I stand by my first impressions determined by see most everything up til then. I quote my self from July 8th, my first post.
me
 
Natalia never appears to make any movement towards physical intimacy or to even touch with her intended. You are my family. You are everything to me, Nat says to Olivia. Natalia is more invested in the “family” part of the relationship than the one on one adult relationship.
Whether it was the actress or constant show runner harassment for the Natalia character to be standoffish, that is what I saw. There are times when the characters are close, ie. We’re not waiting, where Natalia/JL doesn’t open her hand to touch. That bothered me. I don’t dislike the character, I just never saw any movement towards intimacy from the character/actress. A handful of times Olivia makes it very clear that they have to move to “more” in the relationship or they should move on. Cancellation whatever, the character doesn’t have time to stand by her conviction. I persisted as audience from sheer force of Olivia/Crystal presence. That’s still the motivation today.

cagey
 
If they became a committed lesbian couple, then they would be marginalized within the context of a soap's never ending pairing and re-pairing of couples.
Very good point. I have considered this same stumbling block for the show and the writers if GL had not been canceled. You’re absolutely right; there would be no place to go with re-coupling the characters. Your last paragraph, cagey, says it all. I couldn't have said it better myself so won't. I just accept it as it is.
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abzug
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cagey
 
It will most likely end ambigiously as to just how lesbonic they are, but in the "they lived happily ever after" mood.

Wow. Umm, so, I'm ok if they don't show a kiss or anything, but I'm not ok if it's ambiguous how lesbionic they are. They've both said they want to have sex with eachother. They want to be a family together. I'm assuming the ending will have them established as a family unit, in which case that includes sex, as far as I'm concerned, given what the text has shown us so far. If TPTB pull back on that, then it's not an "Otalia is endgame" ending. A Boston Marriage type of relationship is not a satisfactory happy ending to me, and I think is a major disservice to the storyline.
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solitasolano
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abzug
 
I'm not ok if it's ambiguous how lesbionic they are
Totally in agreement, and so is Olivia.

One of the several times times Olivia makes it clear she wants/expects more than friendship. (4:57 if the time stamp doesn't work) This is where I saw the whole thing stopping back in May when I started watching in July. The Natalia character stopped working for me at this point in the story.
Doesn't really matter if the sl stalled because of cancellation, bad writing, network say so, or impending maternity leave, it did. Sexless is what we were left with on screen. As cagey, you point out, we all know " where it went in our minds." Too bad.

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abzug
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solitasolano
Aug 3 2009, 03:44 PM
abzug
 
I'm not ok if it's ambiguous how lesbionic they are
Totally in agreement, and so is Olivia.

If we have any trust for the writers remaining, then the fact that Olivia's need for more has been a preoccupation of the text means that it has to be resolved, and the only way to resolve it and have a happy ending is for these two to have "everything two people in love share" to use Nat's words. Alternatively they could have a sad ending for these two, but that seems unlikely at this point. But an ending which has them together but not "together" would be incredibly incredibly sloppy writing. It would be like having Natalia stop praying and going to church.
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cagey
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abzug
 
Wow. Umm, so, I'm ok if they don't show a kiss or anything, but I'm not ok if it's ambiguous how lesbionic they are. They've both said they want to have sex with each other. They want to be a family together. I'm assuming the ending will have them established as a family unit, in which case that includes sex, as far as I'm concerned, given what the text has shown us so far.


Sorry, didn't mean to scare you!

I guess I mean: I expect them to end the show as a family unit, and while all us here will assume that means sex, it is not going to be made explicit what might be going on behind closed doors.

I will scare you further by saying Natalia's convictions, at the time she said them, regarding sex, were shaky at best. I am so looking forward to newly empowered Nat.

You are so right Solitasolano about the stall out of Natalia's character. She would have postponed into next year if the pregnancy didn't force her to deal.

As to whether Olivia expects more than friendship - the biggest fear for each of them is losing the friendship. I was thinking about that in terms of her comments to Phillip at the memorial that she felt so alone. Also in terms of on what level did Nat "betray", is she did, Olivia by leaving.

Granted, Olivia wants sex; or better perhaps to say Olivia needs a level of intimacy and trust with Natalia that we usually associate with sex. Natalia, however, will probably remain focussed on the family and we will have to infer that means she also wants that level of intimacy.
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