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Otalia - Guiding Light
Topic Started: Mar 29 2009, 06:54 PM (21,254 Views)
abzug
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In love with a prisoner
cagey
 
I will scare you further by saying Natalia's convictions, at the time she said them, regarding sex, were shaky at best. I am so looking forward to newly empowered Nat.

Are you speaking about the scene outside the farmhouse where Rafe was watching? I didn't think Nat's convictions were shaky. She seemed pretty definitive to me about wanting physical intimacy with Olivia. The dialogue was:
Olivia: But if sex never happens, I won't love you any less.
Natalia: But it will. [unspoken questionmark] I want it to. [her definitiveness on this line indicates her question is about Olivia's desire] Do you?
Olivia (overlapping): You do? Yeah, I just want it to be ok.
Natalia: It will. I mean, I'm not afraid. Are you afraid?
Olivia: I'm terrified.
Natalia: Me too, I am. But I love you, and we'll figure it out. (big dimply smile)

My take on it is if there were any shakes, it was due to nervousness about something new, not a question of whether the desire was there.

cagey
 
Also in terms of on what level did Nat "betray", is she did, Olivia by leaving.

Interesting question. Was Olivia betrayed by her best friend or by her lover, or both? And which has hurt her more? I think she's used to being betrayed by lovers, but the friend thing is entirely new to her, and I think she maybe felt it was more reliable. So the betrayal there could be something she feels more.

cagey
 
Granted, Olivia wants sex; or better perhaps to say Olivia needs a level of intimacy and trust with Natalia that we usually associate with sex.

It's a level of intimacy and trust which Olivia usually associates with sex, not just us viewers. I'd also say that Olivia has flat-out, horndog, physical desire for Natalia. All that steaminess with Josh back in May (or whenever it was, early June?) was a result of pent-up sexual desire for the Christian Tortoise. Same with the yoga scene. :)
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solitasolano
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6/12/09, the 'if sex never happens' scene. I just looked at that scene. Yes, that is about the only time Natalia's desire for Olivia, that she has any physical desire at all, comes through....I've said more than once I'm not impressed with the Natalia side of the duo from the spa on so it's nice to see this reading. You picked the good one abzug. That is going to have to be one hell of an 'I love Olivia' dance she'll have to deliver on. Btw, I don't expect to see it. Oh well, the mind can still go there.
abzug
 
Olivia has flat-out, horndog, physical desire for Natalia
There's two Josh scenes in the June of sexual frustration, the 'don't touch my muffin' and the 'jiggle your wires and make contact' kiss which happens just previous to Olivia bumping into Blake at the sex shop.
Here Olivia tells Blake she turned down sex with Josh because he's just not what she's looking for. She says it so much better, plus the great hand gestures to accompany her thoughts.
Latter in the same scene with Blake, Olivia asks how long does one hold out?. The answer prompts her mad dash to the farmhouse the dialog posted above. A good bit of writing and acting all around.
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abzug
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solitasolano
Aug 3 2009, 06:50 PM
Here Olivia tells Blake she turned down sex with Josh because he's just not what she's looking for. She says it so much better, plus the great hand gestures to accompany her thoughts.
Latter in the same scene with Blake, Olivia asks how long does one hold out?. The answer prompts her mad dash to the farmhouse the dialog posted above. A good bit of writing and acting all around.

That's a great scene, and in rewatching it I noticed Olivia is quite artful in her articulation of her dilemma: "How long do you wait for the love of your life" is interpreted by Blake to mean that Olivia is waiting to meet the person with whom she will fall in love. But Olivia is wondering how long she should wait for Natalia to be ready to have sex. Interestingly, Blake's response to the first meaning provides Olivia with the answer to her real question (as annoying an answer as it is, for what it says about sex in lesbian relationships).
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cagey
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Here's my thing with Natalia. I think she genuinely is in love with Olivia and "knows what it means" but ever since the that first date/not crossing the theshold she has been unable to figure out how to get there.

She held Olivia's hand in church and lightening did not strike, so she thinks maybe jesus is okay with it. That's been her argument for Father Ray.

But whatever it is that is stopping her, she cannot take the big leap into the abyss.

I think she was honestly saying she wants sex to happen, but she is terrified by it. Whether it is the terror of the carnality of it all, or the homosex, or the church or the depth of her own feelings, she is paralytic.

Her last big hurrah - the I'm done waiting - to me felt like she was saying what she knew Olivia wanted/needed to hear. And when Olivia took her at her word, since these were exactly the words she'd been waiting to hear --- well, if it wasn't pregnancy it could well have been something else that stopped her.
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ekny
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abzug
 
cagey
 
Granted, Olivia wants sex; or better perhaps to say Olivia needs a level of intimacy and trust with Natalia that we usually associate with sex.

It's a level of intimacy and trust which Olivia usually associates with sex, not just us viewers.

You're both right... but maybe additional observations might be added? Ie, Olivia has used sex, in the past, to get what she wants. She's not using it here, she's showing enormous restraint. But my vote is that she hasn't experienced what some viewers might have (except perhaps with Buzz [ew]), because of the rape background & because her behavior with men in general indicates a fair amount of control has been exercised in the bedroom. I'm not suggesting she needs to 'lose' that with Nat: I only mean, if they ever effing well get there because they've reestablished that level of trust, she might find out some new things about herself & what is possible, that way; that her old skill-set is no longer entirely applicable, or even necessary.

But if the discussion is about Olivia's level of desire as opposed to Natalia's, then in a way of course... we're right back to Feb-April. W/o the strength of the writing or the complex relationship & interactions between the two to carry us forward. Bec what Olivia wants here is pretty damn clear, imo. Kitchen sink + U-haul. And what Natalia wants is yet-again open to debate.

cagey
 
Her last big hurrah - the I'm done waiting - to me felt like she was saying what she knew Olivia wanted/needed to hear. And when Olivia took her at her word, since these were exactly the words she'd been waiting to hear --- well, if it wasn't pregnancy it could well have been something else that stopped her.

This surprised me to read, I didn't hear it that way. What day was it, I'd have to go back & look.

The writers could have indeed dragged out the church/carnality thing for ages. Olivia (who please should never totally get on the wagon, she can just tone it down a bit) could get loaded, bed some guy after a fight--whatev. Soapy stuff. But Nat's delivery there said to me: Sincere. Which in soapload, as this slow learner has cottoned on, = Anvil! Thus the pregnancy. That's how that progression read to me, structurally. The Anvil wouldn't have been meaningful if not (issues about whether any single one of us buys it much less can stand it aside).

Did she *know* What She Meant? She did say "sex". Presumably she did. But she said it as a putatively straight girl.

On some level, accountability is what we've never seen from her, around this set of issues--including with men, not incidentally. Olivia has many faults, but lack of accountability in this department doesn't strike me as one of them--not during the 2-year progression I've seen, anyway. (And not just bec she hasn't slept with anyone in that time: it's about how she's chosen to address this stuff with Natalia, which has always been as directly as N. can stand.) This set of issues is *all* Natalia's, and we can't very well resolve them when the character isn't even on the friggin tv screen.

The only way to view this, for me, is to constantly remind myself that my sense of what constitutes 'emotional reality' has virtually nothing in common with the world of soaps, which is how I manage (barely) to stick with the program myself, as it were. I have to, over & over, school myself to remember to stay On Message here. And the message is a very, very safe, treacly one about Love redeeming people. Even gay love. And when Natalia learns that lesson too, the closet door can be reshut on our sexless but acceptable couple & everyone can go home happy. In Springfield, that is. The rest of us... god knows what kind of masochism keeps me watching, except for that damn CC.

And then I can go back to BG where characters are written to behave like adults around these issues.
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ekny
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sorry to double-post: Cagey sent me a few links I thot might interest people:

http://scienceblogs.com/cortex/2009/07/tel...hp#commentsArea

http://thesmartset.com/article/article0724...spx?parm1=value
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cagey
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ekny
 
This surprised me to read, I didn't hear it that way. What day was it, I'd have to go back & look.

The writers could have indeed dragged out the church/carnality thing for ages. Olivia (who please should never totally get on the wagon, she can just tone it down a bit) could get loaded, bed some guy after a fight--whatev. Soapy stuff. But Nat's delivery there said to me: Sincere. Which in soapload, as this slow learner has cottoned on, = Anvil! Thus the pregnancy. That's how that progression read to me, structurally. The Anvil wouldn't have been meaningful if not (issues about whether any single one of us buys it much less can stand it aside).


It would have been June 22.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PjS5zfdzhc...re=channel_page

Right up to the declaration of being tired of waiting, she is still trying to contact Rafe and says this is the first time that doing what is good for Rafe is not the same thing as doing what is good for herself. I think she's angry about the situation, but I don't think she knows completely what all the "waiting" is for. She's tired of waiting. She's tired of tip toeing around other people's perceptions of them. But Olivia jumps in and agrees that she's tired of waiting and gives her the chin chuck of love that seals the deal. Certainly the "tired of waiting" is an anvil, but what is an anvil? Not just an arbitrary shift in plot (eg the pregnancy). The anvil is that she is *not* ready for what she says she is.

Now Olivia, I do not think would ever bed some guy after a fight with Natalia. I am prepared to be totally wrong on this, but is Olivia known for casual promiscuity? I know the 2 guys at Towers scene gets brought up a lot, but to me it is clear that the 3 of them went back to her room, got plastered and passed out without anything happening. And she was a bit in loco extremis with the heart at the time.
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cagey
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The gf made me do it.

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Ragazz...a13&view=videos
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ekny
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Sorry, I was sloppy: i didn't mean in a retaliatory way or after any-ole fight. I mean something like this with really high stakes where N. had done something devastating. They'd find some soapy reason, that's all I meant.

Nuts. Dial-up. Will have to look tomorrow. I couldn't listen to Let's Get Physical, had to turn the sound off... but remember thinking the sync between text & expressions esp. during the Blake/Olivia chat was nicely done & a great re-vision of that whole scene. Thanks for the link! --e


ETA: Well, I'm all abashed. Look at how good-natured & sweet. Sheesh. I'll just go be quiet & volunteer my time at an animal shelter or something until I'm better-suited for human company.
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solitasolano
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Good morning to all my message board parasocial friends and acquaintances. :D

Great first article. The guy had me until the izzy stevens mention whom I deem as mute worthy if not more so than reva.

Cheers, ss
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solitasolano
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CC's birthday shoes. Nuff said.

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traveller
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Crystal's Birthday today. :party :girlygiggle

Couple of shots from peeps in Peapack today.

:innocent .. Lovely ... THUD !
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EJ being a terrific sport .. I think every Otalia fan would love to give Rafe one of these :naghty
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Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood ..... Helen Keller

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent .... Eleanor Roosevelt

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solitasolano
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Eventually Natalia is going to show up again in SF.

To refresh our memories..."it's not the same, Frank."
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cagey
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ekny
 
Sorry, I was sloppy: i didn't mean in a retaliatory way or after any-ole fight. I mean something like this with really high stakes where N. had done something devastating. They'd find some soapy reason, that's all I meant.


Gotcha, like she had some horrible back story we haven't heard yet? How lucky that time is running out.

If any of you have watched the story this week - we got Dinah saying she would not leave town without saying goodbye (and her goodbye to Vanessa, her mom, was very sweet).

What the first article doesn't quite get is that

Quote:
 
The moral is that there is no such thing as "mere" entertainment. The human mind is an attachment machine, forming emotional bonds with stuffed animals, invertebrates and Izzie Stevens. A good drama might ease our loneliness, but a breakup is still a breakup.



good serialized tv watching requires some interactivity between show and viewer and larger viewer community. This is a heathy aspect of serial tv watching - or at least that's the story I'm using when I have to explain myself. :)


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abzug
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cagey, what do you mean by interactivity? Between viewers and TPTB? Between viewers and each other?
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