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Otalia - Guiding Light
Topic Started: Mar 29 2009, 06:54 PM (21,252 Views)
ekny
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In love with a prisoner
Nice post, Abzug, that all made a lot of sense to me, intellectually & emotionally. All I had to say, really.

eta: people are posting so fast! I haven't even read ss's reply!

----
ok well that was too good to last. i'm ba-ack...
----

Alright thinking out loud here. So what do we know about Nat? She puts the needs of others first. Whenever she puts her own needs first we have a major traffic accident (see: Decker).

What else. She puts others first out of a wish to be good, as well as do good; but also out of fear. What is her question when she realizes she can't help Rafe/keep him from doing time: is God punishing me?

Nat doesn't seem to know how to separate love & punishment. New testament & Old. When she acts from positive motives--to help family, to do a good deed for those she cares about--the results are uniformly Good. (The christening. Baptism. Whatever that thing was.) When she acts 'selfishly', things tank in a big way.

She's been acting out of fear, with Olivia. Or reacting, anyway. I'm not questioning her feelings, obviously.

I am a little uncomfortable with "nurturing" being substituted for sexuality (I know that is totally not what Abzug meant!): seems to me Nat needs to figure out that selfish is also good, at times. Because her son is a dickwad of the first order for a *reason*: her total selflessness with him has resulted in her raising a monster of selfishness. Rafe is effing horrible to her most of the time.** And Rafe's behavior is in large part Natalia's fault. Because she can't arbitrate between loving her son & disciplining him. She indulges him, she makes excuses for him, she facilitates his behaviors by compassionately understanding his intent, rather than holding him accountable for his actions & their consequences.

Which is the same set of problems we're seeing play out with Olivia.

It's why she and Olivia do make such a good couple. (Or did. Or would. Or will again. Whatever.) Olivia has no problems with those kinds of boundaries--not in this way.


** (see: blaming her for his arrest, blaming *her* for putting Daisy in danger. Because Natalia was really the one holding a gun on Daisy. ...Rafe's fucked-up reasoning & failure to take responsibility for his incredible stupidity until forced to [often at gunpoint] is consistent throughout the show. As is his rudeness & disrespect to Nat, which is so OTT it's amazing no one ever calls him on it. He patronizes her. Which is... really impressive, coming from someone with a room-temperature IQ. Point being: we hate Rafe for being an entitled little asshat. But that's in part Natalia's fault.)
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cagey
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abzug
 
This might mean that when Nat returns, she won't just need to make a grand gesture and do an I-love-Olivia dance, but she will also need to demonstrate some Olivia-caretaking, big time.



Not wanting to get all californian and make ekny nauseated, but I need to toss out the word: co-dependence.

The reason Olivia and Natalia work as a couple is because Natalia can be caring but will not enable Olivia's bad habits. Unlike what she does with Rafe.

ek - I agree with everything you said, especially about Nat's relationship with Rafe. It is remarkable that basically no one has ever suggested that Rafe is an entitled little ass. I recognize Natalia's role in making him what he is, but I try not to get too judgemental about it towards her.

I am a little wary of making this a distinct dichotomy of care-giver/receiver. After all, Olivia was essentially a patient in Natalia's care all last fall. As Olivia got stronger, she called on Natalia less for assistance.

solitasolano
 
My unease with the relationship is not because Natalia is no longer helping or caregiving, but rather that she hasn't appeared to make any movement or gestures to move forward in the relationship. May and June have mostly been about Natalia's needs. The need to settle her son and have him adjust to being out of prison; the need to be alright with god; the need to decide things for herself ie. quitting working for Olivia and such.



Olivia has pretty strongly implied since the wedding that Nat's going to have to cross the threshold (I do seem to be extremely attached to that image now). The needs you list are really other people's needs: for Rafe to be free and adjusted, for Frank to understand, for other people not to think Olivia is taking advantage. There's been - I think? - some amount of implied if not articulated "not quite ready" on her part, especially at the spa.

She was throwing up other people's needs as deflection from examining her own fears. I just want her to come back animated by some inner conviction of her desires and not just her fears.
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ekny
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cagey
Aug 7 2009, 07:36 PM
I recognize Natalia's role in making him what he is, but I try not to get too judgemental about it towards her.

I wasn't trying to be; only wanted to point out she has a major role in this that, for fear of sounding judgemental, we tend to avoid discussing.

cagey
 
She was throwing up other people's needs as deflection from examining her own fears.  I just want her to come back animated by some inner conviction of her desires and not just her fears.

Right! :) What I was saying.
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abzug
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cagey
 
I am a little wary of making this a distinct dichotomy of care-giver/receiver.

I hope I didn't seem like that's what I was doing. Good relationships work best when it goes both ways. Olivia and Natalia haven't been going both ways in this arena in the spring/summer.
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cagey
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*I need* and Olivia --

She is very fast to tell people when she needs them. Put in lots of calls to Nat back in the day. Not to say these were prank calls, she always did very much need Natalia, but still, when Olivia calls, the other party answers.

In current time, she calls Philip, she calls Josh - they come to her.

Thinking about Olivia's sexual allure. To men like Alan she is a conquest. But to most, and I'm faking it here cause I haven't seen all that much, it is the *need* that gets them. Powerful woman who admits she *needs* the man.

(note bene: soap operas are apparently populated by *sensitive* men who would want to nurture women in need.)

What she did, when she decided to do everything differently this time, was not Not Need. After the confessions of the non-wedding, she said she would *wait* for Natalia to come to her. She would not send a summons.

Natalia is currently testing that conviction to the very limit by absenting herself completely. Olivia did try a summons - at the convent wall. (This part of my argument I have not completely figured out and could use some help.)

So - return of Natalia: Olivia will not summon her; Natalia must come to her. OR - does Olivia have to say she *needs* Natalia, needs her in a primal way not in the manipulative way she's needed men before. Needs her in an emotional/spiritual way (oh la la no sex, but you get my drift I hope).

The passive no-threshold-crossing that the both of them have entertained since the non-wedding has to be resolved. But as much as Nat is clearly the foot-dragger, Olivia too is guilty of being unwilling to make the statement.

And that, dear abzug, is my agreeing with you:

Quote:
 
Good relationships work best when it goes both ways. Olivia and Natalia haven't been going both ways in this arena in the spring/summer.


(100 bonus points to me for working "threshold" into the argument.)
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solitasolano
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Is the Christian Tortoise back yet??? Get thee back to Springfield already and to your woman!

cagey
 
So - return of Natalia: Olivia will not summon her; Natalia must come to her. OR - does Olivia have to say she *needs* Natalia, needs her in a primal way not in the manipulative way she's needed men before.

My spec is Olivia does not summon Natalia NOR have to say she "needs" her in a primal way. She's been saying that since the graveyard scene before the non wedding. I feel the care-giver/receiver dynamic is past them and they need to be onto something else, a different dynamic because now the relationship needs to heal. We've talked about Olivia's long standing trust issues, well this time it's not exactly something she made up in her head....Nat split. Olivia said twice, "she pushed me away" and "she doesn't want to be found." Isn't it finally going to have to be Natalia who needs Olivia in a primal way? All I can think of is one long "I love Olivia" dance coming up...I would be happy to see that....a new type of Natalia "fighting" for Olivia.


p.s. starting to anticipate para-social breakup coming up.

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solitasolano
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Added recently by annieQC74.

What Double Standard??/!!!

Should I laugh or should I cry? No commentary besides just wishing someday, sometime....for something besides "chin chucks".

Carry on.
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abzug
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I don't think they have sex scenes like this for the straight couples anymore either. It's so strange, it's like watching softcore porn, just without any visible nudity. So all the housewives could get their porn fix, without having to actually feel like they were watching anything dirty. Now with the Internet, there's no need, porn has become acceptable, and soaps don't need to provide this service any longer. Or any service (hence they are all being cancelled!).
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abzug
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Wow, that Mimi Torch is long-winded! E, there's the tiniest bit of a spoiler in this. I mean, it's not really a spoiler, actually. I take it back. I mean, it's a spoiler if you think the question of whether Liv and Nat end up together is still an open question. If so, don't click. If you think it's obvious whether they end up together or not, then click.
http://tvguide.sympatico.msn.ca/Soaps/Nels...oapgeist_NB.htm
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abzug
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What was Olivia referring to in today's episode when she said (paraphrasing) "Or when you know exactly what you should do..."? I can't figure it out.
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cagey
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abzug
 
What was Olivia referring to in today's episode when she said (paraphrasing) "Or when you know exactly what you should do..."? I can't figure it out.


I think adding together her coments:
** Must be amazing to have someone you love like that and who loves you (to Buzz)
** Didn't move fast enough
** You know exactly what you should do and don't do it anyway
** (You can't make situations what you want them to be) but you always try to.

And let me just add that it must be weird for Olivia to have these very personal conversations with all her ex-lovers, who, as Buzz pointed out, are more interested in her body than any other part of her.

Anyway, Olivia has come to the conclusion that she never shoulda gone there in the first place with Natalia. She should have gotten out of it faster, but since she didn't she got stuck and now she's paying the price for having been open.

The Mimi Torchin column - the thing that keeps sticking for me about Nat leaving a message on her way out of town is that - she *can't* assure Olivia that she still loves her. Well, she can, but it would be prefaced with the dreaded "I'm not sure we can ever be together" at the very best. And what Olivia *has* figured out just about now is: maybe Natalia never loved her at all.

abzug
 
I don't think they have sex scenes like this for the straight couples anymore either. It's so strange, it's like watching softcore porn, just without any visible nudity. So all the housewives could get their porn fix, without having to actually feel like they were watching anything dirty. Now with the Internet, there's no need, porn has become acceptable, and soaps don't need to provide this service any longer. Or any service (hence they are all being cancelled!).


Excellent point. I am under the probably mistaken impression that all soaps have toned down the bedtime stories. Maybe network fears what with the censorship under our previous President? Not sure. But definitely, even Bill and Lizzie - who seem to have sex about half a dozen times a day get as far as a few clothed kisses and then the well draped post climax sheet. However, I am tickled by the thought of stay at home moms watching internet porn during nap time. :o


solitasolano
 
We've talked about Olivia's long standing trust issues, well this time it's not exactly something she made up in her head....Nat split. Olivia said twice, "she pushed me away" and "she doesn't want to be found." Isn't it finally going to have to be Natalia who needs Olivia in a primal way?


Totally agree here about where Olivia is. Also agree that Nat is going to have to confess that she needs Olivia like she needs the sun in the morning and the moon at night. But - still of the opinion that this negotiation can't conclude simply with Olivia saying: great dance, c'mon over here baby. After however many iterations of the dance Natalia will be required to do


solitasolano
 
p.s. starting to anticipate para-social breakup coming up.


what?? wait, there was something else we used to talk about, some other fabulous lesbian couple ---- the names are on the tip of my tongue..... I'm sure it will come to me.
:wub:

ETA: the actual dialogue.
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ekny
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Dang. I thought she meant she should've jumped Nat's bones. Sigh. But obviously you guys are right.

I really, really liked today's clips. Dunno why. Just--adult.

ETA: Ok Abzug, taking your word for it, off to read!

"Doris decides there isn’t anyone as good as Olivia for her and marries herself, including officiating at the ceremony."

That was *very* witty. I concur.
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abzug
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cagey
 
Anyway, Olivia has come to the conclusion that she never shoulda gone there in the first place with Natalia. She should have gotten out of it faster, but since she didn't she got stuck and now she's paying the price for having been open.

Omigod, really? That was your take on it? Holy crap! I so didn't go there! Am I such a romantic that it didn't occur to me that Olivia might be regretting the whole thing? I still have a hard time with this idea; I guess I feel like Olivia's one of those "better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all" people. I mean, wasn't that what she was saying to Gus right before the wedding? Or have things changed for her so much that since April she has come to think she's entitled to have love with Natalia, and losing that has made her wish she never felt it? I still can't get my head around it, because for so long she's said again and again that she's just glad to have felt this way for someone, whether she gets to be with Nat or not.

As for the speed thing, I guess if anything I thought she meant she should have pushed things forward faster. Which obviously isn't right--if anything she's thinking she pushed Nat away by pushing. But how/when could she have gotten out of it faster? I mean, when was the moment when she should have seen that Nat would balk? There was no moment, and she must know that, she must know it came out of the blue, that she couldn't have seen the clues earlier (other than the fact that Nat didn't want to fuck her, but let's pretend that's not a factor, since in Springfield lesbians obviously don't have sex).

ekny
 
I really, really liked today's clips. Dunno why. Just--adult.

Me too, and not just because I've had insomnia for the past month, and therefore really appreciated that opening Olivia scene. Of course it could have just been seeing Olivia in sweats and a ponytail. Gorgeous. But no, seriously, it was, I think, the lack of tears and histrionics, and instead just unhappiness, like it is in real life, where you can make your way through your day, and have semi-normal conversations with people, and still be a zombie.
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ekny
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RIGHT! Brilliant post, agree with every word. That's what I couldn't quite get at with mine: why on earth would O. have changed so much in a mere month (however awful) that'd she'd be regretting this? Every word.
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cagey
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abzug
 
Omigod, really? That was your take on it? Holy crap! I so didn't go there! Am I such a romantic that it didn't occur to me that Olivia might be regretting the whole thing? I still have a hard time with this idea; I guess I feel like Olivia's one of those "better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all" people. I mean, wasn't that what she was saying to Gus right before the wedding? Or have things changed for her so much that since April she has come to think she's entitled to have love with Natalia, and losing that has made her wish she never felt it? I still can't get my head around it, because for so long she's said again and again that she's just glad to have felt this way for someone, whether she gets to be with Nat or not.


Regret is, perhaps, too strong a word for how she feels about having loved Natalia. But she asks Philip why she is unlovable. Frank's comment that "maybe it was just you" is not Frank twisting the sword so much as Frank verbalizing Olivia's internal suspicion (her reaction is one of "could be" not "no way"). This is not about what Olivia feels about Natalia but what Olivia *thinks* Natalia feels. You are correct, she loves and loses: that is all she ever does. It must be, in her mind, a fatal flaw in herself that drives people away from her.

abzug
 
As for the speed thing, I guess if anything I thought she meant she should have pushed things forward faster. Which obviously isn't right--if anything she's thinking she pushed Nat away by pushing. But how/when could she have gotten out of it faster? I mean, when was the moment when she should have seen that Nat would balk? There was no moment, and she must know that, she must know it came out of the blue, that she couldn't have seen the clues earlier (other than the fact that Nat didn't want to fuck her, but let's pretend that's not a factor, since in Springfield lesbians obviously don't have sex).


There does seem to be a consensus that "didn't move fast enough" meant she let Natalia slip away from her. I agree that this is not a defensible position. How/when could she have gotten out faster? That's exactly the sort of internal conversation she could be having with herself - just to cheer herself up - it's working really well. My take on the conversation with Philip is one of her everlasting regrets is that she will fuck it up somehow, no matter what her good intentions are. Philips goes too fast/she doesn't go fast enough; know what you should do/don't do it anyway; can't fix the situation/try anyway: damned if they do/damned if they don't.

And it seems to me, at the end of one of those internal conversations, she might just say: why do I even bother?
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