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Otalia - Guiding Light
Topic Started: Mar 29 2009, 06:54 PM (21,251 Views)
ekny
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In love with a prisoner
I know what it is that's been tugging at me: people who have given up hope, or resigned themselves to being alone do not sleep on the edge of the bed. They spread out & sleep if not directly front & center, at least not like they're subconsciously waiting for the prodigal lesbian to come home. We've seen Olivia sleeps this way before (the alarm-shutting-off-tongue-sticking-out-scene [that's tech-speak] comes to mind). But they really dwelt on it.

CC's too smart an actor to point to it with her eyes or indicate this absence in any way. But I kept thinking, why the hell are we spending so much time on this scene? Ok, yeah, very emotionally accurate, but still. Then I thought about how the scene opened, and yes I am actually giving some credit to GL for the camerawork & framing here.

eta: have only seen it once but will review to check for details after this download finishes.

Yeah. The other thing is that the pillows are turned on [Natalia's] side of the bed. Like she just stepped out for a moment, some phantom thing.
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solitasolano
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Liked the return of Bad Ass Olivia putting a halt on the Blake small talk bullshit, hand gesture and all. Decaf-lite…yeah sure. That’ll be the day.

Cannot believe Buzz’s choice of words; “object of adoration”….Object????? Definitely not what O is/was looking for….she’s still “hoping for something a little different”.

Liked the scene with Frank…I was surprised when he said “I’m sorry’, I thought that was a nice nanosecond, but then Olivia pushed it a little to far and he got defensive…he still doesn’t like her. I have to admit I couldn’t really concentrate on the scene since the Olivia/Crystal Crack really kicked in pretty good by then. 

Olivia getting used to having bad days again, more indication I hope that bad ass Olivia has returned. Her duet with Philip summed up well by cagey is just good ole western dichotomy, yin yang, the way of Tao….don’t push the river. Frankly (pardon the pun), I’m not sure what Olivia is referring to by, “Yeah, but sometimes you know exactly what you should do and you don’t do it anyway.” She has regrets, yeah, but, beyond the dichotomy concept the dialog is oblique to me. The “move too slow” line suggest 3 things to me: didn’t push Natalia more when that’s what she wanted; didn’t move out of the relationship when Natalia constantly had some obstacle to moving forward; and then I thought back to pre sympathy sex how Olivia regrets not expressing her feeling for Natalia sooner. (Coming to my senses I would scratch the last one, because I forgot for a second that Olivia doesn’t know what the audience knows…pregnant Nat).

“Why is it that nobody loves me for me?” Olivia’s follow up to Philip’s comment about not deserving love, shows me that even if she’s now hurting from Natalia’s abandonment, or her old scripts and insecurities are playing out, that even if she comes to think she should keep out hope or move on from the relationship, she has moved to a place where she knows she does deserve love.

(posted w/o seeing/reading ek's....got to go so, latter)
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ekny
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In love with a prisoner
I am so with you on the Blake thing, very refreshing! The concentration: you mean the delicate bit of cleavage that made it hard to uh... concentrate?

The other thing that was so nice was that although this wasn't subtexty Nat dialogue it was still carefully written so multiple interpretations are possible. Thus we have something to TALK about again. Finally. :)
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solitasolano
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ekny
Aug 11 2009, 08:46 AM
you mean the delicate bit of cleavage that made it hard to uh... concentrate?

That too, but I would say the whole package. :rolleyes:
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Jeanna
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I said SIT IN THAT CHAIR
abzug
Aug 10 2009, 11:06 PM
cagey
 
Anyway, Olivia has come to the conclusion that she never shoulda gone there in the first place with Natalia. She should have gotten out of it faster, but since she didn't she got stuck and now she's paying the price for having been open.

Omigod, really? That was your take on it? Holy crap! I so didn't go there! Am I such a romantic that it didn't occur to me that Olivia might be regretting the whole thing?

I didn't go there either, Abzug. I thought she was saying she regretted not telling her about her feelings sooner...all those times she tried to tell her, yes, before the pity sex with he who shall not be named. The pregnancy doesn't factor into it. If she'd told Nat previously, and if she would have still chosen to sleep with him in homosexual panic then that would have been a get out now factor.
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cagey
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ekny
 
I know what it is that's been tugging at me: people who have given up hope, or resigned themselves to being alone do not sleep on the edge of the bed. They spread out & sleep if not directly front & center, at least not like they're subconsciously waiting for the prodigal lesbian to come home. We've seen Olivia sleeps this way before (the alarm-shutting-off-tongue-sticking-out-scene [that's tech-speak] comes to mind). But they really dwelt on it.


A point *was* being made. The show's opening sequence is all of Springfield being rousted out of bed by circumstances beyond their control. Philip is waking up James - who sleeps on the couch(?), then Bill and Lizzie. James calls and wakes up his mother - who is sleeping alone (but we know she wants to be with Philip); Next we see Cyrus and Buzz in bed together, followed by Olivia. While she is on one side of the bed, that other pillow looks, to me, like she's been hugging it all night. Finally we get Remy and Christina roused by Mel.

Later that morning at Company: I meant to say that Olivia is like a idle spectre at the restaurant. She's got no place particular to go and tries to interject herself into the on-going Cooper actions, but she's also positioned a few shots in the distance, just looking on at what is playing out.


solitasolano
 
I’m not sure what Olivia is referring to by, “Yeah, but sometimes you know exactly what you should do and you don’t do it anyway.”


This is where my natural pessimism serves me well. At Olivia's coming out speech, at the school (You Stop) and even before all that when she first talked to Doris about Natalia, Olivia is pretty damned sure that Natalia can't handle the implications of being in love with a woman and the whole thing would end in disaster.

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ekny
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In love with a prisoner
Thanks for describing the other waking activities surrounding the Olivia scenes. That sounds to me, again, like it still emphasizes her isolation, similar to the BBQ montage.

cagey
 
This is where my natural pessimism serves me well. At Olivia's coming out speech, at the school (You Stop) and even before all that when she first talked to Doris about Natalia, Olivia is pretty damned sure that Natalia can't handle the implications of being in love with a woman and the whole thing would end in disaster.

Not to challenge your stronghold on the pessimism market, but as another practitioner, I have to ask: is it not just as plausible your read of Olivia *as a character* is not simply accurate, pace wherever the storyline is going?

eta: That is, this has been Olivia's issue all along: that she can't be loved for herself (whatever that means). The fact that Natalia's a woman is at this point incidental in all but name, to Olivia. Imo.
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abzug
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The interesting thing for Olivia's journey in all of this is her own pessimistic personality, her own sense of her undeserving-ness, her insecurity about whether anyone could ever really love her first. So when she expressed her concern that it would all end in disaster, I wonder how much was her just preparing for disappointment, even though another part of her--the part which had fallen in love with Natalia, and fantasized about being with Natalia--perhaps battled internally with the pessimism. So that in the months from when she returned from San Fran to when Natalia left, the pessimism faded, and she started to think this wouldn't be a disaster. And those couple months HAD to have changed her perspective on the relationship, so it's not possible she could revert completely back to the "there is no us" Olivia.

It'll be interesting to see how she reacts to Natalia when Natalia shows up again--will it be a "I wish I had never met you!" kind of rage? Or will it be more like "I love you and you hurt me so deeply, why did you do that?"

OK, today's ep: for those who were unspoiled about Olivia and Josh, what did you think of their scenes? Because I was completely underwhelmed. From the interview in whatever mag it was, wasn't there supposed to be making out up against a wall? And wasn't Olivia supposed to tell Josh about Natalia? Did I misread it? I had been so looking forward to sexiness and revelation from them, and I didn't get either (although I did get CC's boobs, so why complain, right?). I think the tiny set worked against them, because the shot of them kissing couldn't be directly from the side, but was instead at an angle, which is inherently less sexy. The cuddling was really sweet though. And did you notice Olivia's black toenails too? She is total goth now.

The online dating scene with Matt, Rick and Frank was hilarious, as was Frank's reaction to Matt thinking Olivia was into him. Does Frank think everyone knows about Olivia and Natalia? Because his comment about whether Matt had seen Olivia for the last few months would seem overly cryptic otherwise.

Overall, I'm still really really eager for Natalia to return, but I'm glad they've sort of turned this corner with Olivia, where she's taking these incredibly tentative steps to move on from Natalia, so that when Natalia gets back, Olivia will be less open and eager, which I think will make for a very interesting dynamic between the two of them. We will see if this is how it plays out.
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ekny
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Interesting. I didn't read it as her moving on; just being in pain & wanting distraction in the way she is most comfortable with (and with a safe person). I found the scenes with Josh totally lacking in heat, which was *very* interesting. She's turned it on with Josh before, so I have to assume it wasn't about the filming or the angles or anything like: it was an acting choice on CC's part to convey major half-heartedness/ambivalence. Olivia's been here before: she just finished stating, quite clearly, like, yesterday: I had something else in mind. And, to the extent it was the filming, I'm even willing to give them credit for blocking this in a way to de-emphasize the sexy.

What I saw--just the clips with Rick & Matt plus this--were so obvious, clunky, & heavy-handed (even for a soap), esp after yesterday's ep, that despite being unspoiled (as the last person in the known universe who might hold this dubious status), it was perfectly clear where this-all was going. Plus the Beach Music of Obviousness.

So my range of reactions went from: extremely bored/irritated (1.40), make-this-end-soon-please; to, Okay! okay, just come OUT to him, don't screw him (because yes, I did/do still think that's where this is going), to: oh swell, Sigh: sitting side-by-side on bed. At which point I started the internal count-down. Was also seriously peeved at the use of tongue--which we will never see with Natalia.

Yet, perversely, kinda hoped Nat would walk in on them. More uh, bang for the buck, plot-wise. ;p
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abzug
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E, now that you've seen it, you might be interested to read the article they wrote about it, which the rest of us read at the end of last week. Here are the links:
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f288/abzug/IMG_0565.jpg
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f288/abzug/IMG_0564.jpg
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f288/abzug/IMG_0563.jpg

Absolutely nothing spoiler-y now that you've seen today's ep, but some interesting tidbits on how these scenes are ALL censored (even the straight ones), and how both actors explicitly reference Liv coming out in this scene, which she didn't actually do.

Wait a second, it now occurs to me that the issue of not wanting anyone on top was perhaps a choice on the part of the director to minimize the heat/sexiness factor, for exactly the reason you describe. So perhaps CC's first attempt at this scene was less awkward, and more desiring, and then they had her reign it in?
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Jeanna
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I said SIT IN THAT CHAIR
Wow. Was I watching the same show? I'm like totally polar opposite.
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ekny
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Jeanna: explicate, pls! :D

I don't know what to make of that article except this is obviously stuff that gets people, uh, a bit wound up? (Thanks very much for the links, btw! :) )

Like the other week, w/Josh, I'm still not convinced the scene is over: they have to wake from their nap, after all. I'd expect to see her tell him then.

And if the retake was the director's idea, then again... I gotta give him/her credit. I think this was the right tone. Although why the question of on top got them bent out of shape isn't remotely clear to me.
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cagey
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Quote:
 
(although I did get CC's boobs, so why complain, right?). I think the tiny set worked against them


Sorry - sometimes the middle of the sentences are better than the whole thing.:rolleyes:

Ep starts with Josh telling Matt they should take the rest of the day off and go golf - since they are both unattached. The single males cruising for mates on the internet - Matt and Rick thinking they have a chance with Olivia. James is seducing Daisy in the woods. It's rutting season in Springfield.

I think the encounter with Josh was all about the loneliness - as she stated from the outset. It is also a recognition that if Natalia isn't coming back, she's going to have to find some way out of the depths.

That the scenes in no way resembled what had been advertised doesn't surprise me. What does interest me is how often the spoiler version of something is aimed to hype up an emotion that isn't present in the actual payoff. I didn't think Olivia looked even particularly comforted by Josh's presence - she is still alone even with him.


abzug
 
So that in the months from when she returned from San Fran to when Natalia left, the pessimism faded, and she started to think this wouldn't be a disaster. And those couple months HAD to have changed her perspective on the relationship, so it's not possible she could revert completely back to the "there is no us" Olivia.

It'll be interesting to see how she reacts to Natalia when Natalia shows up again--will it be a "I wish I had never met you!" kind of rage? Or will it be more like "I love you and you hurt me so deeply, why did you do that?"


There is a lot we could discuss about that time period and how much Olivia had surrendered her suspicion of disaster. I think her refusal to make a move; to require Natalia to be OK with Everything was an indication that in the back of her mind she wasn't convinced. But I'm willing to say that she did have confidence it would all work out ---- eventually.

I'm expecting:
Why did you leave me?
How could you hurt me (Emma, Rafe, etc)
Why should I trust you?
and
I loved you with all my heart, prove that you love me. (Now Dance. I said, Dance)

Hoping we get at least one of the above.


ekny
 
Plus the Beach Music of Obviousness.


Whole sections of the episode get that musical backdrop - which I take to mean, if the internet dating studs of Springfield are getting the same mood music as Josh and Olivia, the two scenes carry the same weight in the story. So - kissing and bed kneeling: not so important; alone even when together: more important.

Oh yeah - Philip is on his way to Mexico to get the Miracle Cure for the Soap Disease!
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ekny
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cagey
 
I didn't think Olivia looked even particularly comforted by Josh's presence - she is still alone even with him.

Oh absolutely. That's what the eyes open at the end of the shot reveal.
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cagey
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Another point about yesterday: everyone else in Springfield was wakened from a sound and restful sleep; but not Olivia.
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