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Otalia - Guiding Light
Topic Started: Mar 29 2009, 06:54 PM (21,249 Views)
solitasolano
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cagey
 
I think I can see the ambivalence in Natalia's eyes more and more.

What are you getting at here? Do you mean you don't buy the character's investment in this fictional relationship? Is that what you're saying, from watching fanvids you feel Natalia is ambivalent about Olivia? And did you used to think otherwise?

Just wondering bec the actress/acting/storyline/dialog from Nat's side of the story just barely makes it for me...

Quote:
 
Ok, let's just review why in the world Emma is ready to come home:
She doesn't want Josh.
Her daughters love her.-- and...?
Gee, were you looking for something beyond, 'time to start wrapping up the story' reason? Or are you being facetious? Sorry, having trouble following along with the program this eve. :silly

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abzug
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In love with a prisoner
solitasolano
Aug 12 2009, 11:36 PM
cagey
 
I think I can see the ambivalence in Natalia's eyes more and more.

What are you getting at here? Do you mean you don't buy the character's investment in this fictional relationship? Is that what you're saying, from watching fanvids you feel Natalia is ambivalent about Olivia? And did you used to think otherwise?

Just wondering bec the actress/acting/storyline/dialog from Nat's side of the story just barely makes it for me...

At the time I remember thinking JL wasn't up to the acting task, as a way of explaining something which was missing on her side. But in hindsight I feel the same way (if I'm reading your post correctly)--that in nearly every Otalia scene there is some tiny bit (or large bit) of ambivalence coming from Natalia's side. And that now seems intentional, given what has come after. Which makes me think JL is a (slightly) better actress than I gave her credit for.

I'm annoyed as hell Liv didn't come out to Josh, and like the rest of you can't think of an explanation why, other than to leave that door open. But to what purpose? They don't have time to go there. Unless Liv tries to make Nat jealous using Josh? And Josh needs to be an unwitting participant in that? Still doesn't explain why neither of the actors seemed aware this was cut. Do they do those spoilery interviews around when they film, or around when the ep airs?

What I DID find interesting was that Reva interrupted Liv and Josh (as always happened during Liv and Josh's relationship), and Liv just didn't seem to care. That said more to me than almost anything else they've shown between these two that Liv has completely moved beyond wanting Josh, other than as a friend.

Can't remember what else happened in the ep, either b/c I only watched it once so far, or b/c I already took some ambien and it's kicking in. Perhaps I'll have better recollection tomorrow. But I will say I am SO ready for Nat to be back.
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solitasolano
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abzug
 
that in nearly every Otalia scene there is some tiny bit (or large bit) of ambivalence coming from Natalia's side.

Ok, I would say the same thing and feel JL is well with what she was given. I wasn't sure what cagey meant by her sentence. I have to realize I am handicapped in comprehension of the long story arcs because I've only watched recently (Nat already had morning sickness by the time I looked at my first clips) and backwards, so I lack for some continuity.

I thought the Olivia/Josh thing played out fine...Olivia is looking for connections and she specifically tells him she values the friendship, takes the next step and asks for permission to call him in friendship if she needs too. You say as much yourself. Too me the relationship feels resolved.

I don't know what's happening in the rest of the show because I'm watching it.

Get some sleep.


eta: well there was the bit about Grandpa Bill asking Daisy if she was "careful" with genuine concern. We know Nat wasn't.
Then there was the bit of Shayne being distraught because Dinah left without saying where she was going (that sounds familiar) plus Vanessa (Blake) won't tell him either....Even if Shayne knew he wouldn't have been able to keep her out of trouble ie. jail.....guess TPTB use the same scripts over and over.


Olivia is soo soo lovable...she just doesn't know it, and lovable for exactly who she is, especially when playing footsy with pencils in her own office. he he.
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abzug
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In the shower this morning I realized it was the footie scene I had forgotten to write about, and I mentally kicked myself for forgetting. Because I really liked the scene, actually. The bare feet were a good way to make Olivia 'naked' (and therefore vulnerable, without protective facade) in front of Doris, which wouldn't have happened otherwise, since Doris has never entered Olivia's private space (her room at the Beacon)--they only meet in the public sphere.

The thing that made the scene sad for me was there was an underlying element of the two lesbian characters (b/c I don't count Nat as a lesbian, not yet) being incapable of finding romantic love. And them believing they are in capable, that was the sad bit. Like, the fact that they were both this gloomy about love together made it WAY more than double the depressing factor than if they had each been gloomy on their own. I like when Olivia has confidants, but this wasn't quite the boost she needed (other than a reminder that she's not alone).

Of course, I think it's pretty clear they are establishing the loneliness so that both these characters get some resolution and happiness. I don't know if Doris will end up with a girlfriend, or the hint of one, or whether she'll just end up coming out, but they're definitely preparing her, story-wise, to take some sort of visible, substantial step in that direction.

Oh, and Rafe. Man, he was hurtful to Olivia, but his scene with Marina was interesting. I noticed he didn't tell Olivia he hadn't hurt from Natalia (b/c he didn't want to say anything which would reassure her in any way), but the writers made sure that we the audience knew this, by having him tell Marina. And then kind of highlight his struggle with how much his mom loves him, having left him both literally and emotionally (Olivia being the first relationship Nat has been in which isn't about Rafe at all--even Frank was always positioned as a dad to him). So, anyway, I think Rafe is being realistically-written, and I think the actor is doing a really good job. Otherwise we wouldn't hate him so much, would we?
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cagey
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abzug
 
that in nearly every Otalia scene there is some tiny bit (or large bit) of ambivalence coming from Natalia's side. And that now seems intentional, given what has come after. Which makes me think JL is a (slightly) better actress than I gave her credit for.


Yes that is what I was trying to say. More than one of those touching non-kissing hugs end with a close up of Natalia looking not-with-the-program/preoccupied/dithering. In retrospect we may decide she was doing a more nuanced portrayal then we knew at the time -- blinded as we were by wanting these two to get together already.

abzug
 
I'm annoyed as hell Liv didn't come out to Josh, and like the rest of you can't think of an explanation why, other than to leave that door open. But to what purpose?


I think she totally closed the door with their last encounter and the "friendship" exchange. And at the risk of being accused of excessive pessimism I would say she didn't tell Josh because she has decided it is over with Natalia. She's sending for Emma and is going to devote herself to the 2 people in the world who do love her: Emma and Ava.

Same goes for poor Doris - she'll get to bond with Ashlee and that will be her happy ending. Cause lest we forget, this is all about the family and not about the "camping".

I did like that even Billy knows what "camping" means. And good thing Daisy was "careful" when "camping"
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ekny
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I don't think she's decided it's over, because people in love (even characters in soaps) are just not that rational. If you want it that badly, unless you know they're, well, dead, you don't tend to give up; especially not Olivia. Resigned is more the word I'd choose. Family is what she's left with so time to gather them near.

Abzug, agreed w/your recent posts, and even that Rafe is being realistically-written, but I don't conclude that's the reason I despise him: he's deliberately hateful to Olivia: he takes pleasure in it. That's the part of the self-righteousness so many fundies emit that they're not accountable to. As for poor widdle Rafe's it's-not-all-about-me insight, I don't have the time of day for it.

The question I keep turning over is: does the show realize the character is this despicable? What are they trying to say, about Natalia, her faith, her religious precepts, her Goodness, and her conflict, if her son is such a total dickhead? Them's the breaks in soaps? The only way this much venom towards Olivia would be justified, to me, if it Natalia writes the little prick off: says fine, sell your soul to Alan, I've made my choice. I realize this will not happen in a million years but I'd like some of this crap redressed and set right.

Unfortunately, and rather unbelievably, if Natalia is back next week, that leaves about 3 weeks (?!), less than a dozen episodes, assuming--just as always--they are not on every day--to fix this. So 1/4 will be About Rafe, 1/4 will be about Frank, 1/4 will be about Phillip. Half of the remaining quarter will be about Emma. That leaves about 2 episodes'-worth of time to resolve things. Which means Nat will make googoo eyes, Liv will say aww, it's alright baby, and I will be pretty pissed off.

Just an attack of the cynics, don't mind me.
Sigh.

The only excuse I can find for them jacking us around for so long in May is they were so shocked by the cancellation the scriptwriters somehow really believed it would still come out okay, get picked up elsewhere, & stayed in denial just long enough to screw the pooch around the timing of this whole thing. Last 3 months were a total write-off. It's too bad.
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abzug
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There are five weeks of episodes remaining after Nat returns, not three.
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ekny
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Doesn't change my point, although I appreciate the correction. 1 week for Rafe; 1 for Frank; 1 for Phillip; 1 for Emma. 1 for Otalia. These last 4 weeks with Olivia have all been thematic along those lines. The whole show is structured that way, week to week. I'll be happy to be shown to be wrong. Just not having a holding-my-breath kinda day. :( --e


ETA: There is a legitimate argument to be made around saying: if you *continuously* privilege the negative--that's what the audience sees. No one's countering Rafe's assholery. Not Olivia, who's being Saintly in Nat's absence. Not Frank, who's the same breed of self-absorbed as Rafe, just an older version. And not Marina, who tries to show Rafe how Deeply Loved he is.

So whether or not Olivia sleeps with Josh, what they're showing IS what the audience needs to see--that she doesn't want him; but without the counterargument... it's kinda useless. To date. Ditto the Rafe storyline. Such as it is.

What we are seeing played out is the template the couple spent a month mouthing to each other: we can't be together until every single one of our externalized obstacles is addressed, taken care of, steered around, or otherwise disposed of. The church; the family; the exes/telling our friends, our jobs, our reputations, etc etc. So really the show is right on track. It's just a bizarrely literal, programmatic, simpleminded way to go about this project. Like if you just set everything out clearly on a chalkboard and explain it, over and over, to the dumber audience members, finally, they will GET it.
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cagey
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ekny
 
I don't think she's decided it's over, because people in love (even characters in soaps) are just not that rational. If you want it that badly, unless you know they're, well, dead, you don't tend to give up; especially not Olivia. Resigned is more the word I'd choose. Family is what she's left with so time to gather them near.


Okay, I'll buy that. Except in Olivia's case I believe she has tended to just move along to a new obsession when the current object is no longer available. I think it's a sign of her more mature attitude that she does delineate her relationship to Josh as "friend."

ekny
 
The question I keep turning over is: does the show realize the character is this despicable?


I think the show is completely aware of it. The character has been a sullen punk from the very beginning. I believe Sullen Punk is a standard soap character and if the show had continued, he might have been a sullen punk for even longer before he gets turned around. James is also a sullen punk. Both of them, I would guess, will get unpunkified in the very near future.

ekny
 
The only excuse I can find for them jacking us around for so long in May is they were so shocked by the cancellation the scriptwriters somehow really believed it would still come out okay, get picked up elsewhere, & stayed in denial just long enough to screw the pooch around the timing of this whole thing. Last 3 months were a total write-off. It's too bad.


There probably was a certain amount of waffling until it was clear there was no reprieve, but I will cautiously defend the writers by saying that there was 72 years of story telling to wind up and about half a dozen storylines in process to wrap up just as abruptly as Otalia. I don't think there was a conscious decision to short change our story over any of the others.

We can speculate about why they seemingly wasted all this time on the murder mystery or Jeffrey not being dead but everything is connected -- no murder, no not dead Jeffrey means no Jonathan - about whom we care little, but apparently lots of folks were thrilled to see again.

It really is a shame they couldn't tell the story at the same pace that preceeded the cancellation, but what ya gonna do? End of the show will probably leave the story where it was going to end up anyway, but without the texture and slow build that a soap story is all about.
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ekny
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Erm.

Looks left. Looks right.

...who is Jonathan?

Oh and btw: Jeffrey is not-dead and Edmund IS dead but not-really? Oh god, I didn't just ask all that, did I? Never mind. Just trying to figure out how all this wrapping up is related. Excuse me, I'm off to take an anticipatory aspirin.
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abzug
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ekny
 
A: There is a legitimate argument to be made around saying: if you *continuously* privilege the negative--that's what the audience sees. No one's countering Rafe's assholery. Not Olivia, who's being Saintly in Nat's absence. Not Frank, who's the same breed of self-absorbed as Rafe, just an older version. And not Marina, who tries to show Rafe how Deeply Loved he is.

I have a hard time believing this particular argument. I mean, Rafe's behavior is SO repugnant, he's so villainous, particularly in his dealings with Olivia, and Olivia is totally being depicted in a way that garners identification and sympathy. So if the character we are meant to identify with is being abused, and is showing a tremendous amount of dignity and maturity while suffering that abuse, you think the abuser's message becomes paramount or in any way dominant?

I mean, you've got a character who is HAPPY that Olivia is suffering. None of US are happy about that. So ergo we disagree with this character's point of view. The fact that Rafe's point of view is perhaps too-clearly or too-emphatically drawn is perhaps to remind homo-uncomfortable viewers that Rafe is articulating some things that they have said or believed in the past, and thus giving them a way of rejecting/moving beyond beliefs they have formerly held. If Rafe's point of view was more vague it would enable viewers to gloss over the destructiveness of homophobia, be it their own homophobia, or society's homophobia. And the show's agenda in this storyline, if it has any agenda at all, is to get people and communities and institutions to move beyond homophobia because what's most important is love and individual happiness.
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ekny
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I agree with every word you said. For real: every one.

The problem is, to go meta on the storyline as we've been doing--crediting the scriptwriters with this level of awareness, the actors, etc--which is certainly valid, also suggests (as your post does) we are assuming or credit part of the *very audience this is directed at* with that level of self-awareness. Which is very much open for debate, seems to me.

For one thing, you're only talking about the fence-sitters, and of them, only a small proportion. The rest ignore what they don't want to see. And of course this leaves out the haters. (Though it's hard to tell the difference sometimes. Kinda like Rafe.) Frank's comments to Olivia yesterday were all perfectly valid, too, from his perspective, despite my feelings about Frank. They were aimed directly for where they'd hurt most. But they're even *more* comprehensible (thus sympathetic) than Rafe's b.s.

A friend who lurks on this thread, time to time, sent me this from a LBGT list-serve today--it depressed the crap out of me. It's from the article out (one of many, I assume?) about Goodbye Guiding Light--all about Reva. Nothing about Olivia. But the post in question runs:

> Good riddance to a soap that has declined so much in the past year.
> Here's hoping storylines are wrapped up and that Jeffrey comes home to
> Reva and Edmund gets what he deserves and Natalia chooses Frank over
> Olivia.

Yes, someone responded, although as my friend pointed out, at this point most have learned to ignore them. This is the toned-down, I'm a Homophobe in a Sane, Reasonable Person Suit strategy that's been employed for the last 3-4 months so that the nutters who kept saying outright hateful things didn't get those comments bounced so often on YouTube.
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cagey
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The boys of Springfield (like we care)

Rafe is selfish. That's his sum total. Frank, for all his self-absorption, is not selfish. Rafe is going to have to do something not about self to get redeemed. I think that is very clear to soap viewers. I think he is also a stunted character, because of the cancellation. I'm fairly sure there ought to have been a James/Daisy/Rafe triangle this summer that would have allowed him some emotional growth.

Edmund is alive. Not yet returned to Springfield but after all the children who are related to Reva.

Jeffrey is alive - having figured out Edmund's mad desire for all the children related to Reva, he crashed his plane but still crawled through the North Carolina woods to find --

Jonathan - a Reva & Prince Richard creation (making Edmund his uncle) and apparently quite the charming bad boy sullen punk in his day. He's been on the run from Edmund for some time, protecting his daughter (dam: Lizzie).

When last seen, J&J were about to saddle up and go after Edmund - maybe next week.

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ekny
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You've sorta become our defacto BK. :D Thanks, e.
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cagey
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Oh no - there are others way more versed in the history and meaning of GL than me...

Unless you mean I am the only person here who is watching the Show as Show and trying to fit all the little pieces together, by which you might mean, village lunatic? :o

ekny
 
The problem is, to go meta on the storyline as we've been doing--crediting the scriptwriters with this level of awareness, the actors, etc--which is certainly valid, also suggests (as your post does) we are assuming or credit part of the *very audience this is directed at* with that level of self-awareness. Which is very much open for debate, seems to me.


So why is this audience's attitude more open to debate than the audience for any sort of public media? I understand there are bigots, there are wackos and there are those who feel compelled to post nasty stupid thought on the internet. It's a great invention and people do say the darndest things. Plus daytime tv is all about the rant and discussion - so people are going to fling things out.

But I will not go down the path of suggesting that *most* viewers of daytime tv are narrow minded 'phobes. There have been studies of daytime viewers, who thanks to their viewing habits are more informed about social issues and medical issues than non-soapers. As Loretta Lynn said about writing her song, The Pill, her listeners knew what she was talking about.

I would concede that it is easier to love the fictional lesbian than it is to love you lesbian daughter - and that's fucked and it's family. Very glad I don't have to deal with it meself.

And sad but true, Otalia is not the defining moment for GL. It may be a defining almost moment for lesbian images on tv, but there's a lot of people from whom this story is just a drop in the bucket -- including my co-worker, who watched the show when she was in HS and college, who has a lesbian sister, and really couldn't care at all what happens to Olivia cause she was a bad girl (do I get points for that?) back when she watched and is way more interested in Mindy (whoever she is - well, I know, cause I have researched) than the current story lines.

Ek - I am ready to hold your fringe, man. Solid.



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