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Otalia - Guiding Light
Topic Started: Mar 29 2009, 06:54 PM (21,245 Views)
ekny
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In love with a prisoner
abzug
Aug 18 2009, 12:47 PM
It's hard to get my mind past the fact that when Olivia goes over to Josh's, she's left poor Emma hanging out with Daisy at Company. Doesn't that seem a little off? Or gross?

Ok, sorry, we've been posting so fast I didn't see this whole thing til I took a minute to breathe.

Re Josh: totally. Options 1) they'll go ahead so that Nat can interrupt them.
2) Josh, who has been deliberately obtuse for his own purposes, is not such a shit that he'll buy this. He's a Goode Man: Josh will call a halt to things.

Which is why they've let this particular strand drag on and on. And on.

(Of course, she could always bang him AND have Nat walk in, but that would make Olivia morally culpable in a way they've never risked with her, to this point. It'd make sense emotionally for her to do it, but not from a scriptwriting pov *since* the soap is not going on, and not from Josh's pov, however agreeable he might find the idea of being Olivia's sex toy.)

abzug
 
Really weird staging moment in the scene right after the gazebo. Natalia's facing away, and Liv is walking after her. It doesn't make any sense from an emotional perspective. There's no reason Nat would have walked away from the gazebo, let alone continued talking with her back to Olivia while Olivia chased after her. If anything the opposite would have worked much better (which they did near the playground, where Liv walked away and Nat walked after her). I am sure they were just trying to add some movement, but JL wasn't able to make it work, from an acting perspective, so it felt very stagey and false for the first few lines of dialogue.

It was extremely clumsy. But let's assume, beyond that, it was deliberate. What it suggested to me is: Nat's not hearing her. Which the rest of the scene does go on to make extremely clear. Nat is facing away *while* she says some pacifying bullshit like "I know this whole thing was hard for you". She has no idea. She is *not facing* Olivia. She's about to find out.

abzug
 
I'm trying to imagine what the scene would have played like if she had made it more seamless, shown more of an ongoing battle within herself, so that even when she was saying something positive, the negative emotions and coldness and anger were coming through, and when she was being cold the positive feelings were coming through.

That's a lot of nuance to demand of anyone in one or two takes. Even over a day, if they did in fact reshoot this, which is what I'm gathering...?? Confused abt that.

This is where the Script silliness came from, this scene?

Anyway.

abzug
 
I liked the progresison of the scenes, Nat revealing she loves Olivia, wants to spend her life with her. But again, where was Liv's reaction to this? Nat has never said anything like this before! And CC was just stone-faced.

I had no problem with that. She's registering that Natalia's sense of Reality is a little limited. She hit every button for the WTF: You're Pregnant?! storyline reactions. She just finished saying you broke my heart. Why would she react when Natalia tells her the thing she most wants to hear? She. doesn't. trust her. There's nothing to react *to*: no one's HOME.

So until Nat gets a fire lit under her ass... I'm totally down with that set of reactions. They read as perfectly coherent to me: You came back from your planet to inform me of this decision, you haven't even told Frank, and you want us to be together for ever and ever? I'd be pretty incredulous, too.


eta: Our mutual criticisms and appraisals of JL's Subtle Acting Choices have varied somewhat, not that much, really, over the months, but the basic bottom line remains the same--remains as you said--and something we're agreed on: she cannot manage to do two emotions at once. Especially if she's tired or not focused or not on her game.

assumption: she's method (duh) & if she gets into it with CC, she's good. And if she falls out of the loop, she's pretty useless. It's like watching a wind-up toy that hasn't been oiled properly, trying to walk around.


eta2: this is why, as I speculated I think? they did that article with the throwing-him-up-against-the-wall thing: they filmed all of these scenes on the same day, it seems clear. Or maybe I emailed that to someone. Doesn't matter.


ETA3: La, lala. Yes I'm still here. I'm not surprised people went ballistic about the script page, frankly. There was a LOT of dialogue there, more than I expected. Of a more substantive nature. Most of which was kept, yes...??

I just drank page 3 of the stale spoilers koolaid. Shall I proceed, is everything safe now??

...

annnnd:

ETA4: summary.

The writing was spot on. They clearly are aware of exactly how this storyline was likely to effect viewers - and did it anyway. So I have to assume it's for a good reason. In their heads. Same reason as ever: happy families and little pink bunnies.
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Jeanna
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I said SIT IN THAT CHAIR
Keep those ETA's comin'--they're great.

I think Liv hit every one of the things everyone has been saying she has to say over the past months on the boards and in the 'when she returns' fanfics.
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ekny
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ooh, you caught those eh? heehee. Glad I'm not *totally* babbling to myself.

She really did. She got great lines. I agree it was a bit choppy, but--I also think they have parts of 2 different takes, going on here. Light's different. And I think CC was doing her thing, working herself up to the emotion of the scene, which is why she couldn't do the thing Abzug thought the scene required, at the same time; they're two really different approaches, maybe?
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abzug
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In love with a prisoner
Not sure why everyone is sure there were reshoots. Do people know something I don't know?

Other thoughts as I rewatch for the nth time:

The first "I want to be with you" revelation happens at the playground and then Emma interrupts (of course). So Olivia doesn't get the chance to process or react. She's fine with Emma talking to Natalia until Natalia starts telling Emma she'll get to play with the baby once it's born. Then she can't take it anymore, and is actually great with the "I'll call you" brush off. So it's actually via Emma that Liv is getting the first hint of what Nat envisions for all of them, and it's immediately intolerably painful to her, at least, in front of her daughter it's too painful. I like the arc and rhythm of this.

Especially given that Olivia HAS to hear the rest, she can't stay away from Natalia after that, hence her leaving Emma at Company with Daisy. I'd like to think this is because she needed to give Nat a piece of her mind, but I think it was more because she needed to hear a piece of Nat's mind. I mean, she's been waiting MONTHS for Nat to be ready, fully ready, and it's got to be hard to be so betrayed and hurt, AND to finally be getting what you want from the person who betrayed and hurt you. I mean, the living together, all of it. Everything Liv asked for from Nat, she's now ready to give. (Except the sex, but let's assume that's part of the package--I'm sure that's what Liv and Nat are both assuming, even though CBS won't let them say it.)

I have to say, I liked it better this time through, possibly because I had fewer work interruptions and really tried to focus on experiencing it as a whole. I still think JL's acting was crap, and if it continues like this, I'm going to have a hard time believing in the relationship. If this whole pregnancy/runaway storyline was a chance to flip things around, to have Nat be the pursuer, then JL is going to have to bring it more than she did today. She needs passion and intensity as an actor to persuade us that this REALLY matters to her. I'm just not that impressed with her I-love-Olivia dance yet.
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ekny
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In love with a prisoner
What happens when you put a bunch of lesbian geeks together to discuss 8 minutes of teevee: the last 3 pages of chat + unknown interactions on spoiler thread + the rest of the entries later as the West Coast weighs in.

What happens when you see these several POVs juxtaposed in 2 comments on YouTube:

Poster-1>> Thank goodness Natalia has those dimples, because she's dumb as a box of rocks! How could she look so shocked that Olivia would be upset at being abandoned for nearly 2 months with no word? Duh!

Poster-2>natalia doesn't looked shocked, she looks like she wants to explain and make olivia hurt less.
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abzug
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ekny
Aug 18 2009, 04:00 PM
What happens when you put a bunch of lesbian geeks together to discuss 8 minutes of teevee: the last 3 pages of chat + unknown interactions on spoiler thread + the rest of the entries later as the West Coast weighs in.

What happens when you see these several POVs juxtaposed in 2 comments on YouTube:

Poster-1>> Thank goodness Natalia has those dimples, because she's dumb as a box of rocks! How could she look so shocked that Olivia would be upset at being abandoned for nearly 2 months with no word? Duh!

Poster-2>natalia doesn't looked shocked, she looks like she wants to explain and make olivia hurt less.

OMG, e, you cracked me up so completely. That's the thing I've always loved about this board--the excessive overanalysis, with no judgment. Why be concise when this is SO much more fun. But yeah, those YouTubers really got to the point, didn't they?
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ekny
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>> Why be concise when this is SO much more fun.

Well yah--there's no speed limit here. Me likey. But this time those girls mighta trumped us. :D


ps: 88º, 66% humidity AND pouring. Go figure.
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Jeanna
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Weather, same here.

And another little gay boy to boy joke today...hmmm. Frank to Matt: "You hittin' on me?"
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ekny
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Oh yeah, meant to comment on how fast ole Matt bounced from that little convo with Nat. So, pg huh? Buhbye!

Wasn't there that total har-har homothing a year or so ago, with Dr Rick (what UP with that, anyway? Dr Bauer or Rick, right??) explaining how to get dates, to Frank?
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abzug
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ekny
Aug 18 2009, 05:31 PM
Oh yeah, meant to comment on how fast ole Matt bounced from that little convo with Nat. So, pg huh? Buhbye!

The Matt stuff was only random because none of the writers or exec producer gave JL any direction. If they had, it would have been clearer why that scene was included: to give Natalia motivation to call Frank right away after she talks to Olivia, so that Frank doesn't find out from Matt about the pregnancy.

If Nat had been less confident telling Matt to keep the news to himself, and then showed us she was anxious that Matt would tell Frank, then she could have sort of remembered and became flustered after Olivia has such a bad reaction, and so picked up the phone to call, with some urgency to reach him before Matt did. That's probably how it was scripted, given that Matt and Frank were golfing together.

But without any direction from the director, JL didn't pick up on the best way to play this moment, and therefore it fell flat, made the character seem bizarre (calling Frank all la-di-da after what just transpired with Liv?), and made the scene with Matt completely random.
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Jeanna
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ekny
Aug 18 2009, 03:00 PM
What happens when you put a bunch of lesbian geeks together to discuss 8 minutes of teevee: the last 3 pages of chat + unknown interactions on spoiler thread + the rest of the entries later as the West Coast weighs in.

What happens when you see these several POVs juxtaposed in 2 comments on YouTube:

Poster-1>> Thank goodness Natalia has those dimples, because she's dumb as a box of rocks! How could she look so shocked that Olivia would be upset at being abandoned for nearly 2 months with no word? Duh!

Poster-2>natalia doesn't looked shocked, she looks like she wants to explain and make olivia hurt less.

:rofl

Oh, that's rather charming. <G>

I was just thinking of two of my least favorite "L" word moments in the movies, both unforgivably snotty, but somewhat apropos. Provided for your information, if not amusement.

Faye Dunnaway while straddling William Holden in bed in "Network" talking about how she wants to do a soap opera about lesbians to be called "The Dykes." (BTW, this is one of the ugliest hetero moments I've ever seen on film.)

And Katherine Ross to James Garner (also in bed) in "They Only Kill Their Masters" -- "A pregnant lesbian, isn't that a contradiction in terms?"
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ekny
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Jeanna asked me What I Thought Would Happen. I blame her for this.

If they have Olivia sleep with Josh... I think it's a mistake, but it's the only way to even the score with Nat. I don't mean for Olivia: I mean, so the audience hates Nat a bit less. If so it's a seriously cheap shot and screws up Olivia's redemption arc.

This would actually bring up more serious issues around O's character assassination, for me, than Natalia's s/l: in lesbian terms... this is exactly why I would never watch a soap opera. Because it's inevitable, isn't it. Of course they're not really a couple. Which this would prove to Natalia for reals.

But the longer I type, the higher my BP goes, thinking about it. So I vote nay. Also: it's very close to the end. They don't need to introduce this kind of drama. They really do not.


So let's go for this option, instead. Olivia will try... but Josh won't let her. Because this is a paternalistic show where Good Men show women the error of their ways. Which I've been saying for 5 solid months.

And because those kinds of cliffhangers in *this* show have, to be honest, *usually* proved false. We didn't have to wait-and-see if Nat slept with Frank. We got the whole knocking-over-furniture eyeful right then. (Of course this may be a sop to the perceived audience who thinks O would be happier with Josh, but I can't believe the scriptwriters are going there. Also Josh has his own storyline with Reva & all those lunatics, doesn't he?)

No, Olivia is freaking, Josh knows when she's freaking, it will feel Off to him so he'll save her from herself, get her to talk... and save her from being petty at the expense of his own blue balls because that's just the kinda guy he is. That's my vote. I'm gonna stand on it. And his nuts while I'm at it, just in case.


***** Fantasy sequence ***** {still horribly prosaic because that's what this show does to me) *******

Yes: O sleeps with Josh. Reva--not Nat--shows up. Reva & Olivia have it out. Nat shows up at the last minute and steps up to protect her girl from getting clocked by Reva. Reva laughs mockingly, incredulous at the sheer ridiculousness of a pregnant Nat insisting she's in love with Olivia, and drags cuckolded Josh home by his ear since his willy's shriveled to the size of a peanut with all this psychotic estrogen in the room.

Left alone, Natalia and Olivia stare at each other and agree they should take some time to Think about Things and maybe talk some more next week.

This also gives Olivia a New Imaginary Thing to apologize about because god forbid she runs out of those.
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abzug
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ekny
 
***** Fantasy sequence ***** {still horribly prosaic because that's what this show does to me) *******

Yes: O sleeps with Josh. Reva--not Nat--shows up. Reva & Olivia have it out. Nat shows up at the last minute and steps up to protect her girl from getting clocked by Reva. Reva laughs mockingly, incredulous at the sheer ridiculousness of a pregnant Nat insisting she's in love with Olivia, and drags cuckolded Josh home by his ear since his willy's shriveled to the size of a peanut with all this psychotic estrogen in the room.

Left alone, Natalia and Olivia stare at each other and agree they should take some time to Think about Things and maybe talk some more next week.

This also gives Olivia a New Imaginary Thing to apologize about because god forbid she runs out of those.

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

You KILL me, e! So glad we got you into this show, if only for posts like these.

I can't comment on your speculation, since I've read all the spoilers. But don't worry, I think I'm the only one still participating in the spoiler thread, so you're not missing anything, other than me talking to myself, which, really, is just kind of sad.

ETA: Hey, west coast peeps, where are ya? Shouldn't you be home from work already, and done watching the show? Oh, right, it's only 7 pm over there. Alas, I have to go to sleep, so I'll catch you in the am.
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cagey
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abzug
 
I'd like to think this is because she needed to give Nat a piece of her mind, but I think it was more because she needed to hear a piece of Nat's mind. I mean, she's been waiting MONTHS for Nat to be ready, fully ready, and it's got to be hard to be so betrayed and hurt, AND to finally be getting what you want from the person who betrayed and hurt you. I mean, the living together, all of it. Everything Liv asked for from Nat, she's now ready to give. (Except the sex, but let's assume that's part of the package--I'm sure that's what Liv and Nat are both assuming, even though CBS won't let them say it.)


Yes thank you. All discussion of bad acting aside (and frankly I cut her slack for it being her first week back - this soap acting thing must be way difficult. The Bad Actors don't end up doing soaps; the Good Actors learn there and move on) - Natalia is taking up space in a way she never used to. She walked right into Olivia's space twice; put her hands right on her face without any hesitation and otherwise made her case for what she wants.

However much Olivia is not with the program -- this is the first time since the WoD that Natalia has clearly stated what she wants without the "I don't know" and the "I'm terrified".

Now Olivia. CC. Lots of nice little ticks and nuances but I was not particularly impressed by her either. Either the acting or where the character is at. Using Emma as deflection. The trusting thing --- now that just sounded off to me. Sure it is her core issue, but how could she cough up the core issue so easily? Then her next move is to demand sex from Josh?? That's not about trust betrayed. I would not dare to guess where the story is going next, but it sure does feel a teensy bit that Olivia's own issues regarding the love of her life being Female and now Ready to Rock 'n'Roll are about to surface.

ekny
 
If they have Olivia sleep with Josh... I think it's a mistake, but it's the only way to even the score with Nat. I don't mean for Olivia: I mean, so the audience hates Nat a bit less. If so it's a seriously cheap shot and screws up Olivia's redemption arc.


When was the last time they actually had sex together? Anybody know? That ship has so sailed. I was thinking today that Josh's moment of redemption for this story is to stop having serial rerun relationships with Olivia and Reva. He said as much whilst golfing. And why would sex with Josh do anything to fix or bury her feelings for Nat?

Meanwhile - circle the wagons -- today was all about the Children. What we will do for the Children. How much we love the Children. And Edmond is out to get the Children - lucky for us Emma is not related to Reva.


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solitasolano
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The Muppets!
Where to start? First of all, haven’t read comments since this am….12 hours ago arg…why do I have to wait so long for time to watch the show…will be like this til the end arg.

Otalia was top of the “Previously On” recap again today and the repeated “why didn’t you tell me, you left me, you left me” cry was the last scene before the title sequence which included the shot of O walking up behind N in the gazebo from today’s episode. (I want to know what part of “you left me” Natalia doesn’t understand.)

You all didn’t miss anything by not watching the whole episode today. Whereas yesterdays Billy ambush surprises Vanessa parallel story added to and supported the O/N sl…I’m blind to what Reva waltzing around her J shrine and the J/J Edmond shoot out is all about, but then of course I don’t know who Edmond is. Ha. Scene to scene in the Sarah, Lizzie, Reva, Jonathan, Jeffrey sequences there where connections, but between them and Otalia scenes I can’t find the nice parallel like in yesterdays episode so you all saved yourself some time.

Thought Olivia was spot on with everything throughout the episode…ouch….the hurt. Olivia does a good job of explaining herself and how she feels without lashing out in blame at Natalia whereas Natalia demonstrates an immaturity I’ve felt before from the character. Only one reading felt off. That was Olivia’s somewhat sardonic “Congratulations” in response to N saying she was pregnant. Did anyone else feel that. In all, Olivia is hurt and Natalia is clueless.

What was the Matt meet up all about? I can only assume it sets something else up coming up. At least N is smart enough to ask Matt not to tell Frank. I was starting to wonder. And why is Natalia just hanging around in the park? Olivia said she would call. She didn’t say stick around here in the park and I’ll be right back.

Love how when Olivia returns to the park, approaches Natalia from behind in the gazebo and then says her name in almost the exact tone as when she came to her in the gazebo after N run away (hummm do I sense a theme with this woman) from alter…intentional much? (See YT link below and make your own comparison.) Olivia walked up behind her then too.

In the gazebo is a refrain of “how can you just leave me?” (third time in the epi) with a chorus of “you broke my heart.” Did like the whole explanation of the effect Nat splitting affected Emma because, duh, it’s how Olivia was affected by her splitting. Liked the charge that Nat expects everything to revolve around her…this is a new line. I don’t recall this ever coming up in their discussions or disagreements before. By their third or so scene together, Natalia comes off as a whiner to me (really different from the character who was tromping around in late 2007 getting ready to marry Gus)…I’m not full of Nat hate, she just consistently seems a tad clueless going all the way back to Feb. and Franks proposal.

Olivia finally loses it with the ‘raise Frank’s baby together’ scenario insisting “this is completely different” (feel free to compare “this is different” moment to a previous one…see below…I love the YouTubes) and launches into yet another refrain of “you left me.” The whole O wrapup of “a problem came up and you ran- you didn’t believe in us - I don’t trust you” was perfect and believable…you know, I don’t trust Natalia either…(see vid below). This all is so going to get worse before it gets better…now what did you all think? Expect a double post. 

Olivia calls Natalia's name in the gazebo (44 secs, for some reason this one isn't working)
It's not the same
I thought you believed in this family

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